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Friday, November 26, 2010 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
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Also, those who insist that we are all fully determined to do as we do tend, paradoxically, to be very moralistic about insisting that this is how everyone ought to think about us.  In effect they believe, “No one ought to believe that people have free will, that they can make genuine choices in their lives; they ought to be thought of as complex machines.”  However, without the capacity to choose, such admonitions are meaningless.
I love the way that that was put.

Ed


Post 1

Saturday, November 27, 2010 - 12:53amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I still don't think this is a good argument for free will.

To defend free will, one needs to show not only that people make choices, but also that their choices are free of antecedent causes. After all, some choices clearly are determined by antecedent causes. For example, a devout Catholic's decision to attend mass is determined by his religious values and his belief in God. An Objectivist's choice to avoid religious worship is determined by his philosophical values and his non-belief in God.

Nor is determinism incompatible with normative value-judgments. One can say, quite validly, that a devout Catholic ought to be an atheist (if he is to think correctly), but that doesn't mean that at his present level of understanding he has any reason to choose a process of thought that results in that conclusion.





Post 2

Saturday, November 27, 2010 - 7:35amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I still don't think this is a good argument for free will.
Oh, crap ... it's ... it's starting again ...

To defend free will, one needs to show not only that people make choices, but also that their choices are free of antecedent causes.
No. To defend free will, one needs to show not only that people make choices, but also that their choices are free of environmental or outside causes. There is the moral agent, and there is the past and present environment. The organism and the environment. Determinism theory says that the environment leads the organism to act in certain ways and not others. Free Will theory says that the organism can come up with other ways. This is evident in the myriad choices folks make, a choice structure unlike anything found in the determined animal world:

1) the choice to work to get rich
2) the choice to lay around and stay poor
3) the choice to color your hair a funny color
4) the choice to get a tatoo
5) the choice to live primarily for the next episode of a favorite soap opera
6) the choice to create art
7) the choice to drown your consciousness with mind-altering chemicals
8) the choice to rationally invest in others for the potential value they can be
9) the choice to be a frustrated recluse

Determinists -- such as yourself -- who argue that the antecedent causes reside within the acting organism ("value-determinists") are missing the point of determinism. The point of determinism theory is an appeal to 'outside causation'. The point of free will theory is an appeal to 'inside causation' (the agent himself is the cause of the action, not the environment). Self-determination IS free will.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 11/27, 7:36am)


Post 3

Saturday, November 27, 2010 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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Hmm.

"Oh, crap ... it's ... it's starting again ..."

Let's nip it in the bud. :)

Seriously, you have a different definition of "free will" than I have. My definition has always been that an action is free if it caused by the agent who performs it but is such that no antecedent conditions were sufficient for performing just that action. That's the definition that Nathaniel Branden uses in his book The Psychology of Self-Esteem.

You seem to be using one that is closer to the compatibilist view, which is fine. I have no problem with using the term "free will" in the sense that you're using it. Most people probably use it in that looser sense anyway, but that is not how Objectivism uses it.


Post 4

Saturday, November 27, 2010 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Let's nip it in the bud. :)
Yeah, right. Like that's really going to happen. Either you don't understand who it is that I am, or you don't understand who it is that you are -- but we are not the type of blokes to just let something important be. In a way, you could say that we are determined to debate this issue until the cows come home.

:-)

Seriously, you have a different definition of "free will" than I have. My definition has always been that an action is free if it caused by the agent who performs it but is such that no antecedent conditions were sufficient for performing just that action. That's the definition that Nathaniel Branden uses in his book The Psychology of Self-Esteem.
All you have got to do is to insert one, qualifying word in that definition and it becomes objective and factual:
... an action is free if it caused by the agent who performs it but is such that no antecedent [, non-willed] conditions were sufficient for performing just that action.
As I said, self-determination isn't determinism at all, it's free will.

That's the definition that Nathaniel Branden uses in his book The Psychology of Self-Esteem.
Well, then maybe Nathaniel Branden was wrong. I will have to make the effort to look into this.


You seem to be using one that is closer to the compatibilist view, which is fine. I have no problem with using the term "free will" in the sense that you're using it. Most people probably use it in that looser sense anyway, but that is not how Objectivism uses it.
It is best to attempt to understand free will by first understanding what it is that determinism is. Determinism -- at least according to "how Objectivism uses it" -- is the view that man's life and character is a product of factors outside of his control. Free will, then, is the opposite (where man, through the use of his will, exerts some control over his life and character).

Ed


Post 5

Saturday, November 27, 2010 - 5:19pmSanction this postReply
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Some Quotes on Free Will:

"...that which you call “free will” is your mind’s freedom to think or not, the only will you have, your only freedom, the choice that controls all the choices you make and determines your life and your character." Galt's speech (from the Ayn Rand Lexicon)
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"Thinking requires a state of full, focused awareness. The act of focusing one’s consciousness is volitional. Man can focus his mind to a full, active, purposefully directed awareness of reality—or he can unfocus it and let himself drift in a semiconscious daze, merely reacting to any chance stimulus of the immediate moment, at the mercy of his undirected sensory-perceptual mechanism and of any random, associational connections it might happen to make.

When man unfocuses his mind, he may be said to be conscious in a subhuman sense of the word, since he experiences sensations and perceptions. But in the sense of the word applicable to man—in the sense of a consciousness which is aware of reality and able to deal with it, a consciousness able to direct the actions and provide for the survival of a human being—an unfocused mind is not conscious.

Psychologically, the choice “to think or not” is the choice “to focus or not.” Existentially, the choice “to focus or not” is the choice “to be conscious or not.” Metaphysically, the choice “to be conscious or not” is the choice of life or death . . . ."
“The Objectivist Ethics,” The Virtue of Selfishness, 21 (from the Ayn Rand Lexicon)
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"Because man has free will, no human choice—and no phenomenon which is a product of human choice—is metaphysically necessary. In regard to any man-made fact, it is valid to claim that man has chosen thus, but it was not inherent in the nature of existence for him to have done so: he could have chosen otherwise.

Choice, however, is not chance. Volition is not an exception to the Law of Causality; it is a type of causation."
Leonard Peikoff “The Analytic-Synthetic Dichotomy,” Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, page 110 (from the Ayn Rand Lexicon).
------------------------------

Bill wrote, "...an action is free if it caused by the agent who performs it but is such that no antecedent conditions were sufficient for performing just that action. That's the definition that Nathaniel Branden uses in his book The Psychology of Self-Esteem." I can't imagine Nathaniel saying that "[a]n Objectivist's choice to avoid religious worship is determined by his philosophical values and his non-belief in God", and meaning that the Objectivist couldn't choose to go into a church, or choose to become a Catholic (thus ceasing to be an Objectivist).

Every value is not a 'cause' by itself, it arise in a context rich with other values, and emotions and a background of feelings. Add to that short term versus long term which are both different frameworks for making decisions. We choose to focus, or not. Actually we choose how intently to focus and for how long. And then the thinking sorts the various values out in the context according to how we focus.

Also, we aren't born with values, so they had to be formed/accepted/validated/integrated/prioritized/updated/etc and they are always open to change as time goes by.

I think that Dr. Machan's makes an excellent point. If you are a determinist then words like "ought" and "should" carry no meaning in this context. I can say that a falling object like a rock "should" attain terminal velocity at such and such a point, but that isn't the same context. No one expects the rock to reexamine it's values and change speed so as to do what it "ought" to do.

Where Bill writes, "One can say, quite validly, that a devout Catholic ought to be an atheist (if he is to think correctly), but that doesn't mean that at his present level of understanding he has any reason to choose a process of thought that results in that conclusion."

The first part of this, which asserts that one ought to think correctly, implies that one has a choice in the matter - to think correctly or not. The second part asserts that it is unlikely that the devout Catholic will find themselves in a context where the amount of choosing that would be required to change such core values so completely as to become an atheist is going to occur. But we know that it does happen. So, the use of the word "choose" or the phrase "reason to choose" is more about probability than causality. If people could not make choices then it would some external, billiards type of causality that led a person from Catholic to atheist. We would not even be talking about values but wondering about those external conditions.

The fact that the Catholic can, through a series of purely internal choices, become an atheist, without any special outside effects, is the reason that "determinism" is not a valid word to use with human beings. Our causual mechanism isn't compatible with any of those views.

Values aren't antecedent causes in the sense that they must override any conflicting values or emotions of the moment. Values aren't antecedent causes in the sense that they were acquired in a fashion that involved no volition. Volition will always be the cause and the values will be the context.



Post 6

Sunday, November 28, 2010 - 11:10amSanction this postReply
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Steve and Bill,

Volition will always be the cause and the values will be the context.



Rand once said something so simple that it is hard to understand. Actually, it is easy to understand but it is hard to integrate. What it was was this:

Values are that which one acts to gain and/or keep.
There are at least 2 senses in which this easy-as-hell statement can be viewed. In one sense -- a teleological sense -- it is (abstracted) values that cause the actions of individuals  with values taking on "a life of their own", without a necessarily-aware valuer. On this view, individuals aren't self-determined but, instead, they are value-determined. On this view, Rand's statement not only explains the behavior of humans (as I think it was intended), but it also goes so far as to explain the behavior of plants and animals. Plants grow tall and branch out, because they value the capture of sun and rain. Or, rather, the abstracted value of sun and rain is what drives the plant to perform the behavior of growth.

This is the sense with which I think Bill agrees. Bill, am I right about that? Do you view Rand's simple statement as a statement about final causation (teleology), instead of efficient causation (explanatory without appeal to abstracted or intrinsic "forces" causing action in the world)?

In the other sense, you can view the statement as merely a retroactive explanation of how folks willfully chose to act. This sense looks backward, while the first sense above looked forward. This sense is appropriate for explaining chosen human behavior, but not the behavior of plants and animals. For plants and animals, it is not conscious values which drives them but, instead, instinctual or genetically-copied behavior patterns. If we fall into the trap of anthropomorphizing, however, we will tend to view plants and animals in the same light as humans -- and we will believe that plants have moral values (which happen to be universally held and are universally governing of all plant behavior).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 11/28, 11:15am)


Post 7

Sunday, November 28, 2010 - 9:28pmSanction this postReply
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Morality does not necessarily imply choice. Morality is that set of views about how to live one's life. Choice, on the other hand, can be something real, actions not entirely determined by prior events, or it can be something illusory, us thinking that our actions are not mechanistically determined by prior events even though they are.

Choice, in the illusory sense, can arise from being on the cusp of something resembling the Mandelbrot set, where no matter how deeply you peer into the set at the border, you keep finding deeper and deeper levels of complexity. That is, vastly different outcomes can arise from extremely minute differences in initial conditions, and a mechanistic brain might attribute the outcome of those razor edge "decisions" to "choices" which were the result of mechanistic sifting of possibilities and "choosing" the one that the brain determined was the best result at the moment of "decision".

I am not weighing in on which of these two situations is reality, because it can't be proven one way or the other. My intuitive and logical sense is that I do indeed make real choices, but the intuition and logic may be the outcome of a mechanistic brain that mistakenly thinks it is not deterministic.

But, regardless of which of those two situations is reality, morality is something real. My brain, for example, has determined that the morality of Objectivism and non-coercion and libertarianism is the ideal morality, and one that I thus try to follow, since that is the path that I think will lead to happiness and fulfillment -- but that perceived choice to embrace this morality may indeed be illusory, and just the outcome of my genetic identity interacting with the twists and turns that my life has taken, and that a slightly different twist at crucial moments in my life -- such as the moment I happened to meet my wife out of the thousands of women who could have answered my personal ad which I met her through.

Even a slight alteration of that crucial ad, changing a single word, might have meant she would never have answered the ad, and my life would have lurched down an entirely different track. She herself told me how she debated about a week about whether to answer the ad or not after she read it. Our lives are highly contingent, and can drastically change at crucial moments due to tiny changes in the conditions at those moments.

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Post 8

Monday, November 29, 2010 - 3:33pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

I think you're arguing for the possibility of soft-determinism, or what Bill refers to as: compatibilism.
Morality does not necessarily imply choice. Morality is that set of views about how to live one's life. Choice, on the other hand, can be something real, actions not entirely determined by prior events, or it can be something illusory, us thinking that our actions are not mechanistically determined by prior events even though they are.
It seems you are saying that someone could be forced to be moral. If morality were just a "set of views about how to live one's life", for instance, then nothing would prevent someone in the future from taking over a human like a puppet -- and forcing the human to live a moral life. But this is not the case (it would not be possible).

Once you lose the ability to choose your actions, you lose the agency behind those actions -- and you lose the possibility of moral evaluation. An example of this is the 'accident.'

When folks have an accident, let's say, when a child accidentally pees his pants -- the parents don't morally condemn the child. Now, if the child was mad at his parents and threatened to pee his pants, and then the child stood in a wide stance, clenched his fists, and made a grimacing face -- then the parents may condemn the child upon the discover of urinary fluid pooled up inside of his Pampers.

But what is the difference? In both cases, there was urine in the diaper, but only in one case was it evaluated morally. Why? The answer is that when folks can't help it, we don't condemn them, because moral condemnation (or moral praise) relies on agency or free will. Rand had this to say about choice and morality:

A code of values accepted by choice is a code of morality.

But a “moral commandment” is a contradiction in terms. The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed. The moral is the rational, and reason accepts no commandments.

My morality, the morality of reason, is contained in a single axiom: existence exists—and in a single choice: to live. The rest proceeds from these.

Morality pertains only to the sphere of man’s free will—only to those actions which are open to his choice.

A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man’s sin, a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of morality.

--aynrandlexicon.com

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 11/30, 1:50pm)


Post 9

Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, thanks for your perceptive comments. Sanction.

What I am arguing is that what we perceive as being choices may not actually be choices, that our minds might work how they are programmed to work as modified by our life experiences and that there might not be any way for us to change those workings, however much we intuitively feel we are in charge of those workings.

I'm not saying that that is the case, and I mentioned that my mind rebels and revolts at the awful possibility of that being true, but that when I apply rigorous logic about this, I simply can't rule out the possibility that we are essentially choiceless in our behavior, as articulated in Mark Twain's "The Mysterious Stranger".

So, I am not saying we can be forced to be moral by others, but rather that if we don't have the ability to choose that we think we do, then our individual morality is the "inevitable" outcome of having the brain we have due to our DNA, modified by our environment and history.

So, to apply that logic to your example:

If the kid accidentally pees his pants, not intending to, then clearly no blame attaches. We both agree that the kid is not morally culpable.

And, if the kid intentionally pees his pants, trying to piss off his parents and defy them, then we both agree that this is undesirable behavior that ought to be modified if we don't want to deal with a kid that will grow up to be a real pain in the ass for the next decade and a half.

Where we differ, however, is in our views about whether the child effectively has a "choice" in whether to so defy his (or her) parents. You, like most people, absolutely believe that the child has a choice here. I am reluctantly agnostic on that point. While I would like to believe that the child has a choice, I can not definitively rule out the possibility that my kid's DNA, combined with their environment and history, means that in those extremely particular circumstances, that was what that child was going to do at that moment -- even if you grant that even a tiny change in the situation might have led to a different outcome.

I don't WANT that to be the case -- my mind doesn't WANT to live in such a universe where we only have the illusion of choice -- but the universe is what it is, and isn't going to behave differently because of what I wish it to be.

So, to address the core of what Ayn Rand said:

"A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man’s sin, a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of morality."

If she is right about us having meaningful choice (as I fervently hope is the case), then I agree with the above.

If however, we are more automatons than we like to think we are, that does not negate the existence of morality. If we are essentially incredibly complex carbon-based-brains robots in denial about our roboticity, it is still immoral for one of those robots to go about harming others. The other robots have the right to preserve their existence, and to take whatever measures are needed to prevent that harm from happening to them. The other robots, that is, have a morality that says, "keep on existing". And, if by logic, those robots achieve a morality that says, "And also treat others the same way, do not harm them, because that too enhances your prospects for life", then you have Objectivist robots -- however much Ayn Rand would almost certainly deride that term as an oxymoron.

And this: "My morality, the morality of reason, is contained in a single axiom: existence exists—and in a single choice: to live. The rest proceeds from these."

If living or not living is not a choice, but the result of how a particular brain is bound to function, then the brain's attempts to continue to exist is still a set of values and morality.

It is a truth that prisons are full of men, and only a handful of women, because that Y chromosome has consequences that enhance the statistical probability that any given man will, on average, be likely to commit far more crimes than a woman with an otherwise identical genome other than the Y chromosome would be likely to commit.

Is that a choice? That is the crucial question that you think is settled, and that I reluctantly concede is not settled, as much as I wish you are right.
(Edited by Jim Henshaw on 11/30, 1:18pm)


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Post 10

Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 12:38pmSanction this postReply
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I don't know why I'm still debating this issue.

[Sigh]

At any rate, I wrote, "...an action is free if it [is] caused by the agent who performs it but is such that no antecedent conditions were sufficient for performing just that action. That's the definition that Nathaniel Branden uses in his book The Psychology of Self-Esteem."

Steve replied,
I can't imagine Nathaniel saying that "[a]n Objectivist's choice to avoid religious worship is determined by his philosophical values and his non-belief in God", and meaning that the Objectivist couldn't choose to go into a church, or choose to become a Catholic (thus ceasing to be an Objectivist).
Steve, I'm confused on the relevance of your comment as it pertains to the definition of a "free" action that I quoted in Branden's The Psychology of Self-Esteem. While I agree that that definition of "free" is one that Objectivism would endorse, I do not agree that we possess that kind of freedom. So I wasn't saying that Branden would agree with me on what determines a person's choices.

Furthermore, I'm not saying that an Objectivist can't change his mind and become a Catholic (although I would consider it extremely unlikely) or that, having done so, could then act in accordance with his religious beliefs by attending church to worship God. I'm saying that he can't choose to believe in God by a direct act of will -- that he can't choose to become a Catholic without first undergoing a value conversion.

Nor do I think that, contrary to the implications of your reply, Branden would disagree with me on this point. Recall his article in the January 1964 issue of The Objectivist Newsletter, in which he writes:
Historically, the most common view of free will locates man's freedom in his choice of actions. [By "actions" in this context he means physical actions.] This is the view of Epicurus and of the modern Existentialists, for instance. According to this position, man is capable (at least, under certain circumstances) of choosing a particular course of action by direct free will; so that the choice, say, to go to the store for a loaf of bread or to join a political party, can be a causal primary, a "first cause" in consciousness.

The objections to this view are clearly overwhelming. When a man chooses to pursue a given course of action, the cause of his action is the mental operations that precede his choice; these mental operations express and are the result of his values, premises, knowledge and thinking -- whether he is fully aware of it or not....

In the Objectivist theory of volition, a man is responsible for his actions, not because his actions are directly subject to his free will, but because they proceed from his values and premises, which in turn proceed from his thinking or non-thinking.
You continue:
Every value is not a 'cause' by itself, it arises in a context rich with other values, and emotions and a background of feelings.
True.
Add to that short term versus long term which are both different frameworks for making decisions. We choose to focus, or not. Actually we choose how intently to focus and for how long. And then the thinking sorts the various values out in the context according to how we focus.
True.
Also, we aren't born with values, so they had to be formed/accepted/validated/integrated/prioritized/updated/etc and they are always open to change as time goes by.
True, we aren't born with conceptual values, but we are born with the capacity to respond positively or negatively to external events.
I think that Dr. Machan's makes an excellent point. If you are a determinist then words like "ought" and "should" carry no meaning in this context. I can say that a falling object like a rock "should" attain terminal velocity at such and such a point, but that isn't the same context. No one expects the rock to reexamine it's values and change speed so as to do what it "ought" to do.
What about my example of a multiple-choice test, in which you have no reason to choose what you recognize as a wrong answer. In that case, you will necessarily choose what you recognize as the right answer. Yet, we can certainly say that you "ought" to choose that answer if you are to answer the question correctly, even though you could not have done otherwise under the circumstances.

I wrote, "One can say, quite validly, that a devout Catholic ought to be an atheist (if he is to think correctly), but that doesn't mean that at his present level of understanding he has any reason to choose a process of thought that results in that conclusion."
The first part of this, which asserts that one ought to think correctly, implies that one has a choice in the matter - to think correctly or not.
Not necessarily. I said, "ought to be an atheist," if he is to think correctly. He may at the time be unable to think correctly, because he is simply unaware of the fallacy in his position. I can recall, at the age of 9 concluding that God exists based on the first-cause argument. I ought not to have drawn that conclusion if I was to think correctly, but I could not at that time have avoided doing so, as I was simply blind to the fallacy in the argument.
The second part asserts that it is unlikely that the devout Catholic will find themselves in a context where the amount of choosing that would be required to change such core values so completely as to become an atheist is going to occur. But we know that it does happen.
Well, sure. I'm not saying that it couldn't. Remember, I said "at his present level of understanding." If he gains new knowledge and comes to realize the error in his thinking, then of course, he can change his mind and his beliefs.
The fact that the Catholic can, through a series of purely internal choices, become an atheist, without any special outside effects, is the reason that "determinism" is not a valid word to use with human beings.
So, would you say that at the age of 9, I could through a series of purely internal choices become an atheist without any special outside effects, i.e., without any new knowledge acquired externally from my environment?

(Edited by William Dwyer on 11/30, 1:44pm)


Post 11

Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

If however, we are more automatons than we like to think we are, that does not negate the existence of morality. If we are essentially incredibly complex carbon-based-brains robots in denial about our roboticity, it is still immoral for one of those robots to go about harming others. The other robots have the right to preserve their existence ...


But things that don't think and deliberate -- things that don't choose (e.g., things that merely feel or don't even feel) -- do not have a right to life. It's almost as if you are failing to integrate where it is that individual rights come from.

The other robots, that is, have a morality that says, "keep on existing".


See above.

If living or not living is not a choice, but the result of how a particular brain is bound to function, then the brain's attempts to continue to exist is still a set of values and morality.


See above.

It is a truth that prisons are full of men, and only a handful of women, because that Y chromosome has consequences that enhance the statistical probability that any given man will, on average, be likely to commit far more crimes than a woman with an otherwise identical genome other than the Y chromosome would be likely to commit.

Is that a choice?


Yes, but not an easy one. Lots of times, choices are easy. Sometimes, choices are hard. Choices are hard when they go against our tendencies. For instance, I have a tendency to fear conflict. The easiest choice for me in instances of conflict is to cut-and-run. If I didn't care about building character and pride, then that (cutting-and-running) would be my default choice and I would run from conflict everywhere and everytime. I have an aversion to conflict.

What your example above shows, is that men have a tendency to physically react. Physical reactions are easy to spot and criminal law is filled with statutes that specifically target physical actions. This, however, does not mean that men are less moral (e.g., more "criminal") than women are. Women have a tendency to react differently. They react psycho-manipulatively (psychology) or emotio-agressively (emotions) -- but not necessarily physically. A women scorned, for instance, may not hit you in the face -- but she will tell lies about you to a man at the bar, in order to get him to hit you in the face. And that's just a woman getting started.

:-)

There aren't laws against the typical "crimes" of women -- and that's what it is that explains the different rates of incarceration.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 11/30, 3:36pm)


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Post 12

Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I don't know why I'm still debating this issue.
Me either! I thought we'd helped you past this point already :-)
---------------------

Your quote of Nathaniel:
"...an action is free if it [is] caused by the agent who performs it but is such that no antecedent conditions were sufficient for performing just that action."
Note the word "sufficient" in that quote.

Now, let's jump to your question. You asked,
So, would you say that at the age of 9, I could through a series of purely internal choices become an atheist without any special outside effects, i.e., without any new knowledge acquired externally from my environment?
I would say that it is unlikely, but not impossible because you are a bright fellow and able to think for yourself. Having someone describe the concept of "atheism" to you would constitute an "outside effect" but it would not be a "sufficient" antecedent condition. Lots of people run into the concept of atheist and stay theists. You would need to choose to think about that concept. Thinking about the concepts of atheism or God are the internal antecedent conditons that would be sufficient cause of the resulting belief. When you accepted the first cause argument at age 9 that was very understandable, but it was the acceptance of a fallacy and that is a failure to think clearly. At age 9 no would expect very much thinking of that sort to be clear and accurate. And none of us thinks clearly all the time. As toddlers we fell down when we tried to walk - that is normal and expected - but it was still an instance of a failure to walk. As you made choices to think, you gained practice and your thinking grew better and you were ready at some point to revisit the first cause argument (and/or any other arguments that you had accepted regarding theism). At some point, something triggered your awareness of this issue, and you chose to think about it with a certain choice of intensity and duration... and became an atheist. One "ought" to arrive at the correct conclusions, in a given context, if one chooses to think.

If your argument is that, for example, you or I should have been able to derive complex calcus theorems that would express some natural phenomena despite being children who haven't yet learned any math at all... that would be silly. It would be an example of dropping context. Each exercise of thought presupposes a context that includes our native ability, our experience with a certain kind of reasoning and our existing hierarchy of knowledge. None of that has anything to do with volition, does it?

There is a constant stream of things that come to us from the outside and that arise on the inside - for the most part they are univited and we are simple subjected to them. Their causes, for the most part are outside of us and our control. But each one that rises to the level of our awareness is an object that we can choose to focus on or not. To think about or not.
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You wrote, "If he gains new knowledge and comes to realize the error in his thinking, then of course, he can change his mind and his beliefs." My point is that he might realize an error in his thinking or he may not. It could go either way since there are conflicting positions each with conflicting motivations and content. It will depend upon his choice to think or not (or more precisely, to think intensely despite a lot of internal discomfort generated by the conflict with some core values.) The only sufficient antecedent event for changing one's mind in this case is the choice to think.
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Here is what I see as the hang-up: "I'm saying that he can't choose to believe in God by a direct act of will -- that he can't choose to become a Catholic without first undergoing a value conversion."

Choosing to become a Catholic, or whatever, is a process of changing values. It is a product of thinking or, in this case, failing to think clearly. The direct will involved is to focus or not focus, to raise the level of awareness or to engage in avoidance - and to make that choice in a specific context that involves an external option that is present. Let's say someone is being pressured to become a Catholic by a girlfriend and the person is conflicted and has a lot of issues and is torn between the promised salvation (plus being closer to the girlfriend) and staying with his previous beliefs. He can focus on his doubts, he can focus on his feeling of insecurity, and he can blank out the thoughts that contradict this direction. These volitional acts ARE the changing of values. And with the values changed he will find his external actions flowing from them - but the necessary and sufficient cause was the volitional response that changed or did not change the values.
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I'm not sure there is any more to say on this. I completely agree with Branden where he says, "...the cause of his action is the mental operations that precede his choice; these mental operations express and are the result of his values, premises, knowledge and thinking -- whether he is fully aware of it or not...."

Note that he includes the context (existing values, premises, knowledge) in addition to naming "thinking" which is the volitional part. Sometimes the thinking is a much more active part of the cause than the context in which it occurs, for example when their is internal conflict, or when new thinking results in value changes. But often the thinking takes back seat to the values. They set the direction and no further thinking seems needed.

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Post 13

Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 2:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

You wrote, "Where we differ, however, is in our views about whether the child effectively has a "choice" in whether to so defy his (or her) parents. You, like most people, absolutely believe that the child has a choice here. I am reluctantly agnostic on that point. While I would like to believe that the child has a choice, I can not definitively rule out the possibility that my kid's DNA, combined with their environment and history, means that in those extremely particular circumstances, that was what that child was going to do at that moment -- even if you grant that even a tiny change in the situation might have led to a different outcome."

A child can't "defy" anyone if the action is robotic - the word defy in this context implies the choice of not defying.

You say that Ed believes that the child has a choice. How did he, or anyone else, including you and I come to have any beliefs if it didn't involve making choices between different options?

You say that you would "like to believe..." but that statement is laden with the implication that you have a choice in what to believe.

You said you can't "rule out the possibility..." but that only has some meaning if you have some choice about ruling things in or out.

You say to Ed, "even if you grant..." another phrase that would be without meaning since the verb "to grant," implies choice.

You wonder if Ayn Rand was right about us having a meaningful choice. Stop to think about the fact that there is no right or wrong or true or false in the absence of a being that is capable of choice.

It is a fallacy to use language that only makes sense in the context of choice, to attempt to argue that we don't.
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The last thing I'll mention is that there are serious problems with asserting that the Y chromosome is why there are more men in prison than women. It leaves out cultural beliefs and psychology.

Post 14

Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

In the Objectivist theory of volition, a man is responsible for his actions, not because his actions are directly subject to his free will, but because they proceed from his values and premises, which in turn proceed from his thinking or non-thinking.
 
What Branden is saying here is not that values are the ultimate cause of human action, but that thoughts are the ultimate cause of action. Now, we are at another crossroads in the debate. Now, we have to ask ourselves if these things (i.e., our thoughts) -- if these things which logically-precede values (there could not be values without thoughts) -- are automatic, or not. Is thinking determined or even innate? Is thinking thoughtless? An answer to that question reveals whether we have volition or free will.

What about my example of a multiple-choice test, in which you have no reason to choose what you recognize as a wrong answer. In that case, you will necessarily choose what you recognize as the right answer. Yet, we can certainly say that you "ought" to choose that answer if you are to answer the question correctly, even though you could not have done otherwise under the circumstances.


Mortimer Adler wrote something telling about this:

The only time when it is totally inappropriate to use the word "belief" is in the case of self-evident or necessary truths. We know that the whole is greater than any of its parts. To say that we believe it is an egregious misunderstanding of the truth being affirmed. The same thing applies to many, but not all, mathematical truths. We know, we do not believe, that two plus two equals four.

So, when you say that "you could not have done otherwise", you are merely describing dynamics, rather than describing a matter truly open to choice. The case as you have laid it out is not a case about freedom, but license. Think of gravity. Today, your body is pulled down to the earth. You have no choice about that. If you wailed and moaned about that then we would say that you don't wish for freedom, but a license to re-write reality as you please. I would agree then, that we don't have free will in the form of licentious will (e.g., the will to create square circles, etc.).

It would be just as irrelevant to say that we morally praise someone for remaining attached to the earth -- even though they "could not have done otherwise."

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 11/30, 9:43pm)


Post 15

Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 3:28pmSanction this postReply
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And here is an interesting quote from (http://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/philosophers/adler/), it's from Adler's 1961 book: The Idea of Freedom.
We have further explained that "being able to change one's own character creatively by deciding for one's self what one shall do or shall become" expresses the topical agreement about self-determination only when at least two of the three following points are affirmed:

(i) that the decision is intrinsically unpredictable, i.e., given perfect knowledge of all relevant causes, the decision cannot be foreseen or predicted with certitude;
(ii) that the decision is not necessitated, i.e., the decision is always one of a number of alternative possible decisions any one of which it was simultaneously within the power of the self to cause, no matter what other antecedent or concurrent factors exercise a causal influence on the making of the decision;
(iii) that the decision flows from the causal initiative of the self, i.e., on the plane of natural or finite causes, the self is the uncaused cause of the decision it makes.
Recap:
What is said above is that 2 of 3 conditions must be met before an action can be called free. They are:

(i) that you couldn't have actually predicted what it was that someone "chose" to do
(ii) that there actually was an alternative course of action "possible" (as evidenced by differing actions of others in similar circumstances)
(iii) that you actually exercised some measure of initiative when you performed the action

Ed


Post 16

Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 6:07pmSanction this postReply
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Ed: "But things that don't think and deliberate -- things that don't choose (e.g., things that merely feel or don't even feel) -- do not have a right to life. It's almost as if you are failing to integrate where it is that individual rights come from."

I think you're not understanding my point about the process that we call "choice". I am saying that human beings who think and deliberate and feel they choose their actions -- all of us, me and you and Steve and Bill and everyone else, all of us people with individual rights -- might not in reality not actually have what we think of as "choice".

I have, for example, the "choice" of killing myself right now, as I sit here and type, but there is a 0.000000% chance I would exercise that choice, because I am the product of generation upon generation of ancestors who did not act that way, and there isn't anything going on in my life that would remotely make me want to make that "choice". That possibility for me right now has been selected out by evolution, even though it would be incredibly easy to do.

That is an obvious one, but if you think about it, that could conceivably apply to ALL of our "choices" -- our rational brains might do the best that they are capable of, as they define the word "best", and be incapable of doing anything else.

I am not saying that is necessarily the case, but rather that when I walk around and observe people acting, I can not see anything that would conclusively rule out that possibility of the illusory nature of choice. I have not observed ANYTHING all day long, while pondering this question, that settles the question. Weird as it may seem, these utterly different explanations of cognitive processes both fit all of the observed facts around us.

Our right to life is not contingent upon whether or not we have the volition and ability to "choose" that we think we do. Our right to life is grounded upon us wanting to survive, whether or not that wanting is deterministic or not.

Post 17

Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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@ Steve: "A child can't "defy" anyone if the action is robotic - the word defy in this context implies the choice of not defying."

The word "defy" as it typically is used reflects the way most people perceive how "choice" works. That definition is a poor fit if one assumes, solely for the sake of argument, to explore the possibility of genuine "choice" not existing, but what other word can one use to describe a child rebelling against authority, even if that rebellion is deterministic?

***

"You say that Ed believes that the child has a choice. How did he, or anyone else, including you and I come to have any beliefs if it didn't involve making choices between different options?"

We have beliefs because we have brains, and those brains have been fine-tuned by evolution to enhance our survival and pick a course of action that best optimizes our possibility of survival. To take a farcically obvious example, if you have the "choice" between eating a delicious ham or beef or veggie sandwich, or a sandwich made of a pile of shit wedged between two pieces of bread, what is the possibility that you will eat the shit sandwich? Isn't that possibility 0.000000%? Why did you eschew the shit sandwich? Your brain evaluated the different options and made a choice -- are you saying that because you have a "choice", that there is a non-zero chance that you might choose the shit sandwich?

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"You say that you would "like to believe..." but that statement is laden with the implication that you have a choice in what to believe."

I do have a "choice" in what I believe. That's not the issue. The issue is whether that "choice" is deterministic, about whether my brain interacting with the exact set of stimuli that have impinged upon it from birth, if run over and over again in the equivalent of a computer simulation, would result in me having DIFFERENT beliefs.

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"You said you can't "rule out the possibility..." but that only has some meaning if you have some choice about ruling things in or out."

See above discussion about "choice".

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"You say to Ed, "even if you grant..." another phrase that would be without meaning since the verb "to grant," implies choice."

See above discussion about trying to adapt words that have evolved in the context of absolute certainty about the current dominant understanding of "choice" to describe the alternate, more deterministic meaning of "choice". I mean, I could make up a word like "gryant" to refer to "granting" under a deterministic world, but it is easier to just use common words and try to parse out how their meanings would change with this crucial change in assumptions.

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"You wonder if Ayn Rand was right about us having a meaningful choice. Stop to think about the fact that there is no right or wrong or true or false in the absence of a being that is capable of choice."

I dispute that that assertion is a fact. I have argued above that rightness or wrongness of morality and values are not contingent upon a non-deterministic meaning to "choice". And I explicitly said that right and wrong exists under either scenario when I said in a previous post "but the universe is what it is, and isn't going to behave differently because of what I wish it to be."

Either "choice" is deterministic, or it isn't. One of these is true and the other is false. If it is deterministic, then true and false still exist, because then stating that the universe is not deterministic regarding "choice" would be a false statement. Reality exists. A is A. That is not under dispute, at least not by me. What I am questioning is the mechanism by which that objective reality actually works.

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"It is a fallacy to use language that only makes sense in the context of choice, to attempt to argue that we don't."

See above. It is not a fallacy to try to adapt words ill-suited for one purpose to describe an unusual context where those usual meanings don't fit, any more than it would be a "fallacy" to redesign a hammer designed to pound nails and wind up with a sledgehammer, because you're trying to pound railroad spikes. It wasn't a fallacy to take a carriage pulled by horses around 1900, replace the horses with an internal combustion engine, and then gradually reengineer the carriage itself over the decades since to reflect the new possibilities opened up by the new source of power.

Post 18

Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 9:59pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

I am not saying that is necessarily the case, but rather that when I walk around and observe people acting, I can not see anything that would conclusively rule out that possibility of the illusory nature of choice. I have not observed ANYTHING all day long, while pondering this question, that settles the question.
But you are using what I call the Descartes' Demon Prove-a-Negative Argument from the Arbitrary (or DDPNAA, for short). Descartes said, and I quote, that he could not see anything that would conclusively rule out the possibility that a demon trickster controls all human behavior (and tricks the humans into believing they're free). I'd ask Descartes if he could rule out the possibility of an angel -- let's call her Eddie's Angel -- of an angel tricking the demon into thinking that he was controlling all human behavior when in fact all human behavior was explained by free will.

Now, at this point, Descartes could look at me and say: "Well, you know, Ed, there is this principle called the principle of parsimony wherein all else being equal, simpler explanations are to be taken as more correct than unneccessarily complex ones. Another way to say this is: Don't unnecessarily propagate multiple causes for things. It is a rule for thinking well." At which point I'd point back at Descartes and say to him: "Well, if you really believe in thinking well (and not poorly), then you should drop this unnecessarily complex notion of a demon trickster -- and adopt what it is (free will) that is straightforward and available to your own introspection. That's how you think well."

So, you do not need to see evidence proving the claim that all of your intuitions about volition are false, just as we do not need to see evidence of the lack of a cunning demon floating around in the heavens above us. You can dismiss the argument outright (as something arbitrary, and therefore, performatorily absurd) because it is not based upon any evidence -- but your intuitions about free will are based on some evidence.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 11/30, 10:05pm)


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Post 19

Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 10:56pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

You said, "Your brain evaluated the different options and made a choice..." That my hand and arm pick up the sandwich, and the fact that my eyes spotted the sandwich, and that my stomach rumbled with hunger, and the fact that my brain mediated all the nervous system's messages aren't meaningful in this context. I am the agent and I made the choice. Many things will have been part of the context at the time of the decision. The beliefs and identifications and all the processes were also products of previous choices.

If man has no choice (is not volitional), then you wrote what you wrote because you had to. You would be incapable of deciding if an assertion is rational, or true. Without volition, all you could do was already decided and is no more than the next step automatically arising from your programming as it reacts to the context of the moment. There can't be truth without the ability to choose to think because you have to be able to go either way - to say "that's true" or "that's not true" or "I don't know."

Break it down... Truth is a concordance between a thought and a fact of reality. It can only exist within a mind that is working. There could be a tape recorder and some sounds that could be recorded, and then someone could say, "Is that a 'true' recording of the sound?" Without a mind to question the truth and without the ability to be right or wrong there is no meaning to 'true.' And the ability to right or wrong arises out of volitional control of one's consciousness.

Rand says, "Truth is the recognition of reality" and "Truth is the product of the recognition (i.e., identification) of the facts of reality. Man identifies and integrates the facts of reality by means of concepts. He retains concepts in his mind by means of definitions. He organizes concepts into propositions—and the truth or falsehood of his propositions rests, not only on their relation to the facts he asserts, but also on the truth or falsehood of the definitions of the concepts he uses to assert them, which rests on the truth or falsehood of his designations of essential characteristics."
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You said, "I do have a 'choice' in what I believe. That's not the issue. The issue is whether that "choice" is deterministic..."

You can't use the word 'choice' in two different ways. When the discussion is about 'free will' and 'volition,' then the word 'choice' means volition and not 'determined.' In that context, if it is determined, then it was not a choice, and if it was a choice, then it was not determined.
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In the post to Ed you wrote, "Our right to life is grounded upon us wanting to survive, whether or not that wanting is deterministic or not."

A "want" is a desire, an temporal emotional state experienced by an individual and not universal to all humans at all times. That makes it inappropriate as the foundation of moral rights of man. Even a man who does not want to live, and even at the very time that he is committing suicide he still has the right to life. "Wanting" is 'determined' by the individual's experience of the current context, their values, and how they choose to focus.

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