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Post 0

Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 4:41amSanction this postReply
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Mike,

That was very crisp and clear (very good writing). It is ironic considering its main theme, but I am going to have to think about it (or read it a few more times) in order to let you know if I am in full agreement. Not that having others in partial or full agreement means anything in and of itself, though it means at least a little bit of something here.

:-)

Ed


Post 1

Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 5:44amSanction this postReply
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I appreciated MEM's article and its relevance to the new Harriman book on induction. Harriman also observes how the prejudices of scientists can skew perceptual facts into contorted, non-objective abstractions. I still feel shock at how much resistance chemists expressed against atomic theory. I had no idea of that until Harriman.

Post 2

Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 8:09amSanction this postReply
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My notes from link in Mike's article:

Date
No date, but incorporates Pew Research Center data from Oct. 22, 2009 and latest citation is 2010 -- it must be a recent project
Overall -- Global Warming
55% reported perceiving that a majority of expert scientists agree that global temperatures are rising; 33% reported perceiving division

45% perceived that there's expert scientific agreement that humans are causing global warming; 40% perceived that scientists were divided.
Specific
78% of "egalitarian communitarians" (ec) perceived that most expert scientists agree that global warming is occurring; 2% of them believe that most experts disagree that global temperatures are increasing; 68% of them agree that it's anthropogenic

56% of "hierarchical individualists" (hi) believe that scientists are divided; 25% of them believe that most expert scientists disagree that global temperatures are increasing; 55% believed that most expert scientists are divided on whether humans are causing global warming; 32% perceived that most experts disagree that humans are causing global warming
Overall -- Geologic isolation of nuclear wastes
46% perceived that experts were divided on the safety of geologic isolation of nuclear wastes; 25% perceived that experts agreed on safety

29% perceived that experts disagree that isolation is safe
Specific
45% hi perceived experts divided on safety of geologic isolation of nuclear wastes; 17% perceived most expert scientists disagree; 37% perceived most expert scientists agree

45% ec perceived experts divided on safety of geologic isolation of nuclear wastes; 35% perceived most expert scientists disagree; 20% perceived most expert scientists agree
Overall -- Gun Control
41% perceived that experts were divided on the crime-reducing impact of concealed carry laws
26% perceived that experts agree that such laws reduce crime
33% perceived that experts disagree that such laws reduce crime
Specific
47% hierarchical individualists perceived that most expert scientists agree that permitting citizens to carry handguns in public reduces crime; 10% perceived that expert scientists disagree; 40% perceived that experts are divided

47% of egalitarian communitarians perceived that most expert scientists disagree that permitting citizens to carry handguns in public reduces crime; 12% perceived that scientists agree; 42% perceived that experts are divided
Ed


Post 3

Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 7:13pmSanction this postReply
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Forum participants,

Let's do the same science in reverse. I want you (yeah ... all of you) to answer the questions below BEFORE reading the relevant excerpts (at bottom of this post) -- and then again AFTER reading the relevant excerpts:

1. Burying nuclear waste
a) is safe and scientists agree on that
b) is safe and scientists are divided on that
c) is unsafe and scientists agree on that
d) is unsafe and scientists are divided on that

2) The theory of Anthropogenic (man caused) Global Warming (AGW)
a) is sound and scientists agree on that
b) is sound and scientists are divided on that
c) is unsound and scientists agree on that
d) is unsound and scientists are divided on that

3) Permits to carry guns
a) reduce crime and scientists agree on that
b) reduce crime and scientists are divided on that
c) don't reduce crime and scientists agree on that
d) don't reduce crime and scientist are divided on that

Don't look below here! You should be jotting down your answers to the above 3 questions first. Then I want you to look down here and go back and answer these 3 questions again. Did your answers change? What were your answers?

Relevant Excerpts:
Safety of geologic isolation of nuclear wastes (SGINW)
http://www.nwtrb.gov/facts/BoreholeFactSheet.pdf

... Sandia National Laboratories estimate the peak dose from a hypothetical borehole containing 150 [metric tons of spent nuclear fuel] to be approximately [0.000000001] mrem/yr, more than a billion times below current regulatory limits for releases from geologic repositories (1).

If 70,000 [metric tons of nuclear waste] could be placed in 700 boreholes drilled for $20M each, the drilling costs would be approximately $14B, about 14 percent of the disposal cost estimates for an equivalent amount at Yucca Mountain.

AGW
http://www.nolanchart.com/article8572.html

Back in 950 AD, Eric Thorvalssen (better known as Eric the Red) was born a Viking, in Norway. After exile, he convinced many to visit his personal islandaccurately called Greenland. For the next 300 years, Greenland became a whaling, fishing, and farming community coinciding with the MWP (Medieval Warming Period). But now, numerous sites in Greenland have been uncovered, suggesting temperatures were as much as 7oF warmer than today (F. Donald Logan/ The Vikings In History). Today most of Greenland is not green, and has permanently frozen soil and ice.

A major factor effecting earths climate is earth-sun geometry. Milutin Milankovitch gets most of the credit for relating the Milankovitch cycles to ice ages and to climate. Its three cycles: 1) Precession (earth rotates on its polar axis, and wobbles [26,000 years]); 2) Eccentricity (when earth's orbit around the sun[100,000 years] is at its maximum distance(9%), the difference in solar energy received by earth is (-20%)); and 3) Axial Tilt/Obliquity [41,000 years], all provide variations in solar radiation received.

Milankovitch cycles exert their greatest influence when the troughs and peaks of all three cycles coincide with each other. But with sunspot activity, everything gets expanded.

With a cycle time of 2241 yrs, the Landsheidt cycle resulted in earth's cooling in 1400 AD; with a cycle time of 208 yrs, the Suess cycle cooled in 1898 AD; with cycle time of 232 yrs, a conglomeration of several cycles cooled the earth in 1922 AD; and with a cycle time of 88 years, the Gleissburg cycle cooled in 1986 AD.

...
Based on evidence from sunspot counts, there have been 18 periods of sunspot minima in the last 8,000 years. Studies indicate the sun currently spends up to a quarter of its time in these minima. The lack of sunspots means elevated cosmic rays, which means additional cloud formation, resulting in possible reflection of 20% of the sun's rays, therefore earth cooling.

However, the Solar Variation in emissions of high energy X-rays and UV radiation is far more dramatic over the course of a sunspot cycle. UV emissions increase by factors of 2-10, while some X-ray emissions increase over a hundred-fold with differences in sunspot activity.


Gun Control
John Lott Interviewed by Reason Magazine
http://reason.com/archives/2000/01/01/cold-comfort-an-interview-with

Lott:
No one had tried to account for things like arrest rates or conviction rates or prison sentence lengths. And the studies were all very limited in the sense that they were purely cross-sectional, where you look at the crime rates across jurisdictions in one year, or [purely longitudinal], where you pick one city or one county and look at it over time.It was basically because of that class that I saw the benefit to going out and trying to do it right. So I put together what I think is by far the largest study that's ever been done on crime. The book has data on all 3,000-plus counties in the U.S. over an 18-year period.


Reason:
You often say, based on surveys, that Americans use guns to fend off criminals more than 2 million times a year. But in the book, you note that people who report incidents of armed self-defense could be mistaken or lying. How big a problem is that, and how confident can we be that the true number is more than 2 million?

Lott:
Well, 2 million is the average of the various surveys. Different problems may plague different surveys, and the problems can go in both directions. You may have questions that weed out people who shouldn't be weeded out.


Lott:
You hear claims from time to time that people should behave passively when they're confronted by a criminal. And if you push people on that, they'll refer to something called the National Crime Victimization Survey, a government project that surveys about 50,000 households each year. If you compare passive behavior to all forms of active resistance lumped together, passive behavior is indeed slightly safer than active resistance. But that's very misleading, because under the heading of active resistance you're lumping together things like using your fist, yelling and screaming, running away, using Mace, a baseball bat, a knife, or a gun. Some of those actions are indeed much more dangerous than passive behavior. But some are much safer.

For a woman, for example, by far the most dangerous course of action to take when she's confronted by a criminal is to use her fists. The reason is pretty simple: You're almost always talking about a male criminal doing the attacking, so in the case of a female victim there's a large strength differential. And for a woman to use her fists is very likely to result in a physical response from the attacker and a high probability of serious injury or death to the woman. For women, by far the safest course of action is to have a gun. A woman who behaves passively is 2.5 times as likely to end up being seriously injured as a woman who has a gun.

Lott:
One example is gun deaths involving children. My guess is that if you go out and ask people, how many gun deaths involve children under age 5, or under age 10, in the United States, they're going to say thousands. When you tell them that in 1996 there were 17 gun deaths for children under age 5 in the United States and 44 for children under age 10, they're just astounded. There's a reason why they believe these deaths occur much more frequently: If you have a gun death in the home involving a child under age 5, you're going to get national news coverage. Five times more children drown in bathtubs; more than twice as many drown in five-gallon water buckets around the home. But those deaths do not get national news coverage.

Recap:
-Studies done before Lott's magnum opus pale in comparison, and should be viewed with more skepticism than should Lott's study.
-2 million crimes a year are averted by gun carrying victims.
-Passive women without guns are 2.5 times as likely to get seriously injured by attackers.
-Aggressive women without guns are much more than 2.5 times as likely to get seriously injured by attackers.
-Kids don't kill themselves with guns very often. Bathtubs are 5 times as dangerous to kids as are guns.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/28, 5:13am)


Post 4

Saturday, April 30, 2011 - 6:34pmSanction this postReply
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Ed -- depends on what you mean by "scientists agree on that" and "scientists are divided by that".

99% of scientists?

90% of scientists?

a bare majority of scientists?

one lonely scientist who is right and everyone else is wrong (for example, Einstein on his theories of relativity before he published them)

Also, what do you mean by "safe"?

or by "scientists"? people with relevant training to the subject at hand? anyone with a PhD in a field claiming to be somewhat scientific? who defines what is relevant?

Does burying radioactive waste pose an immediate hazard in the next week for well over the background levels of radiation for large numbers of people? I'd say no, not at all.

Can we be 99.9% sure that over the sometimes very long half-lives of types of nuclear waste, sometimes thousands of years, that the site chosen will remain safe from leakage into the groundwater despite possible enormous political and societal changes over that time span? No. Anyone who thinks they have any idea of what the societies living in North America will be like thousands of years from now is delusional.

I think answering these vaguely worded questions, in and of itself, exhibits a form of confirmation bias on the part of both the people asking the questions and those choosing to pick one of the four printed responses, the confirmation bias that such questions can be meaningfully answered in simplistic binary black and white responses without a lot of explanation about what the terms used mean.

So, I'm gonna ignore the printed answers and give my own answers:

1. Burying nuclear waste in the Yucca Mountain depository is safe in the very short term, but in the medium- to immensely longer- term might become unsafe due to changes in society that prevent effective monitoring and vigilance at these sites for problems. I would imagine some percentage of reputable scientists in the field argue about the details of the latter, but not the former.

2. The AGW Theory is based on a long series of assumptions and arguments, some of which should be inarguably true (climate is currently changing in SOME direction), some of which are disputable (the human impact via carbon emissions are large enough to be beyond the background noise of natural climate changes), and some of which are are almost certainly false (the United States federal government, acting alone without any effective coordination with China and India, can meaningfully affect global carbon releases into the atmosphere.) There is anything but lockstep unanimity among all scientists working in fields related to climatology about this theory -- it is highly politicized -- though the majority have bought into AGW to some extent.

3. Greater freedom of choice to carry guns reduces crime, especially in the sense that removing criminal penalties for carrying guns eliminates those crimes from the crime statistics, but also by making criminals afraid they'll get shot if they try to commit crimes. I'm going to guess scientists are politicized about this question, especially if you allow both lefty social and political "scientists" to be included in the sample of "scientists".

Post 5

Saturday, April 30, 2011 - 8:00pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

Good points. Thanks for the constructive criticism. With your extended answers, you are being a good critic and are being well-meaning, but not being a good scientific subject (study participant). I, from your answers to the questions below, should be able to tell you if you are an egalitarian collectivist, or a hierarchical individualist. That is my research question (the one I seek to answer). My hypothesis, to be either confirmed or denied by my collected data, is that ... Whoa! ... I almost told you my hypothesis (which largely negates the results of subsequent study). Anyway, if you are willing, here is the amended version of my slow-to-get-started study:

Study participants, please answer the following:
1. Burying nuclear waste
a) is almost certainly safe and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in radiation agree on that
b) is almost certainly safe and such investigators are divided on that
c) is unsafe and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in radiation agree on that
d) is unsafe and such investigators are divided on that




2. The theory of Anthropogenic (man caused) Global Warming (AGW)
a) is sound and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in climate agree on that
b) is sound and such investigators are divided on that
c) is unsound and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in climate agree on that
d) is unsound and such investigators are divided on that




3. Permits to carry guns
a) reduce crime and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in crime agree on that
b) reduce crime and such investigators are divided on that
c) don't reduce crime and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in crime agree on that
d) don't reduce crime and such investigators are divided on that



4. The best name for my personal philosophy is _________________________________________.



Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/30, 8:23pm)


Post 6

Saturday, April 30, 2011 - 8:28pmSanction this postReply
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Here is an example:

Sally Socialist

1. Burying nuclear waste

c) is unsafe and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in radiation agree on that



2. The theory of Anthropogenic (man caused) Global Warming (AGW)

a) is sound and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in climate agree on that



3. Permits to carry guns

c) don't reduce crime and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in crime agree on that



 
4. The best name for my personal philosophy is ______Marxism_______.

Ed


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Post 7

Saturday, April 30, 2011 - 9:15pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I'm gonna go with

1a) Burying nuclear waste is almost certainly safe and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in radiation agree on that

None of the answers given for 2)

since the entirety of the AGW theory is either unsound or far from proven with any scientific certainty, even if parts of it might turn out be sound, since ALL the conditions of the theory have to be proven correct for the theory to be valid

BUT the scientists funded by government seem to be in close to lockstep on it being sound, probably over 90%, which isn't what you described as "divided"

3b) Permits to carry guns reduce crime and such investigators are divided on that

again, this hinges on who you define as "investigators" -- the fuzziness of the definitions that could be used in defining "reduction of crimes caused by gun carrying" here would fall into the third category of Mark Twain's "lies, damn lies, and statistics", and I'm sure there are plenty of lefty social "scientists" desperately trying to cherry-pick and twist data to fit their preconceived notions.

4. 4. The best name for my personal philosophy is anarcho-libertarian-Objectivism.
(Edited by Jim Henshaw on 4/30, 9:17pm)


Post 8

Saturday, April 30, 2011 - 9:45pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Jim.

I will log your answers under the mental (for now) heading: "Participant #1."

I'm hoping to ultimately get at least 35 responses, because getting 35+ study participants provides for a level of study "power" which can often lead to statistically-significant findings (whereas investigations of less than 35 subjects most often does not produce such clear and unmistakable results). It's something I remember from a college class called "Probability and Statistics" -- which I took several years ago.

Ed


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Post 9

Monday, May 2, 2011 - 4:57amSanction this postReply
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Ed:

1.b
2.d
3.b

4. One skin, one driver...but most people are divided on that.

Post 10

Monday, May 2, 2011 - 5:29amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Fred!

Er ... I mean ... Participant #2.

:-)

Ed


Post 11

Monday, May 2, 2011 - 11:49amSanction this postReply
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Ed, all your questions leave out major categories -- people who think something despite acknowledging that the vast majority of "experts" think the opposite.

Basically, you're excluding the category of people who are ornery and individualist enough to stand firm on conclusions that they know fly in the face of "expert" consensus groupthink -- you know, Objectivists. =)

Also, I think "with" sounds better than "on".

Including those missing categories would look like this, for example:

1. Burying nuclear waste
a) is almost certainly safe and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in radiation AGREE with that
b) is almost certainly safe and such investigators are divided on that
c)is almost certainly safe and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in radiation DISAGREE with that
d) is unsafe and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in radiation AGREE with that
e) is unsafe and such investigators are divided on that
f) is unsafe and more than 90% of investigators with scientific expertise in radiation DISAGREE with that


Post 12

Monday, May 2, 2011 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
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and there is another category: "I haven't looked into this enough to form an opinion."

Post 13

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 - 4:47amSanction this postReply
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Ed, all your questions leave out major categories -- people who think something despite acknowledging that the vast majority of "experts" think the opposite.


People are divided on that. For example, I disagree. I think that case is covered adequately by 'and scientists are divided on that.'

You think not adequately. It happens. People are divided on that. And lots of things.

A 50-50 split, a 60-40 split, or a 70-30 split is less about science than it is fashion, crowd group-think, or any of many factors described in 'The Madness of Crowds.'

As soon as we admit 'what does the crowd think' into our 'science', science is pretty much out the window, unless the subject is crowd-think.






Post 14

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 - 4:49amSanction this postReply
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Note to Self:
Performing science with Objectivists is hard (they can be so critical at times).

:-)


Post 15

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 - 4:50amSanction this postReply
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For example, suppose the split is 90-10.

But suppose the 10 are the very top of the field, and the 90 are the dross.

On average, we are average. I for sure don't want to be forever overly influenced by the half that is below average.



Post 16

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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I chose a 90:10-to-100:0 range of ratios as being representative of scientists not being divided, and lower ratios (e.g. "A 50-50 split, a 60-40 split, or a 70-30 split ") as being representative of scientists being divided in order to replicate the simplicity of the study Mike originally linked.

That's why I said it's the same science (same broad parameters as used in the original published study) in reverse.

Ed


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