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Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
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Luke. Interesting story just to get to the point where you say "There are people in this world (who ought to know better) who demand that I feel "species solidarity" with neighborly nutters..."

Since I am the one who first brought up that quote from Ayn Rand, let me explain something: Neither she nor I thinks you ought to feel any solidarity with "free phone service" or with putting up with the Nutters.

And where you say, "...they feel that I ought to be made into a criminal if I choose not to call 911 at the whim of these entities..." that is not my position, either. As I asked in post 32 of that thread:
Is it possible that the general welfare is best served by conceding that the life of one is equal to the right of another to walk away?

If you were referring to me having a discussion about what is right and what is wrong, please don't put words in my mouth even when you don't specifically name me.


Post 1

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 7:03amSanction this postReply
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This subject has arisen on RoR repeatedly over the years at least since the Joe Rowlands article "Altruism Against Freedom." I am picking on no one person in particular. I am picking on anyone who suggests that one person's physical need of the moment trumps another person's political freedom to choose to help or not.

I posted this as a Facebook note and the comments have been interesting.

My concern remains ultimately with individual rights and not "the general welfare."

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/10, 7:27am)


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Post 2

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
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Ok, I accept that. But are you saying the subject of your piece, species solidarity, "has arisen on RoR repeatedly over the years"? I don't think you mean that. It was that specific subject that was the only reason I thought you referred to me, since I was the one that started that bizarre part of the thread.

Post 3

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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Curtis, the term "species solidarity" touched a raw nerve with me because of this 2006 post which relates to a very public break I made with someone on RoR whom I had initially considered a personal friend until he betrayed Objectivism (in my assessment).

I suggest taking the time to read the article and thread there and chewing the ideas discussed given their relevance to your recent posts.

The idea that people legally owe something more to others in a free society than merely "hands off" has arisen on RoR repeatedly over the years and caused much argumentation.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/10, 9:31am)


Post 4

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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For an argument that you should indeed be left alone if that is what you wish, see Payment in Kind.

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Post 5

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
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I respect the right of my neighbors not to call 911 just as I expect them to respect my right not to call 911.

Once 911 is called, however, the tax-funded workers have a positive obligation to deliver on their oath "to serve and protect" the public.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/10, 10:00am)


Post 6

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 11:12amSanction this postReply
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I am confused, Luke, by your repetition, over and over, on thread after thread, that you reserve the right not to call 911, even, I suppose, in a circumstance like this lampoon Curtis quoted on the first thread:
Joe: “Hello? Oh, Fred, hi. Yes, the mailman came, and it looked like he dropped mail at your house. Oh, by the way, your son, Bobby, is bleeding to death on your front lawn, after he severed his foot under the lawnmower. Actually, I think he’s dead…. What? No, I didn’t. I was busy with this crossword puzzle. I know we’re next-door neighbors and all, but I have no obligation to help other people. I’m free to live on my own and be selfish as long as I don’t hurt anybody…. Listen, Fred, you’re obviously too upset to think clearly about this, so I’m hanging up now. Bye.”
Since not one person here is, so far as I am aware, advocating a law that would force you to call 911, I wonder to whose voice or what imagined threat you are repeatedly responding?

In any case, I am curious of your reaction to this quote of Ayn Rand posted earlier from "The Ethics of Emergencies."
By elevating helping others into the central and primary issue of ethics, altruism has destroyed the concept of any authentic benevolence or good will among men.
Do you think your being forced as a child to attend Christian services, and your seeing your family asked to call 911 when an actual crime such as a stabbing had been committed, is evidence in favor of Rand's claim as to the destructive effects of altruism on a person's capacity for benevolence or good will?


Post 7

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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For better or for worse, I have boycotted direct interaction with certain people on this site as documented here.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/10, 11:29am)


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Post 8

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 11:34amSanction this postReply
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I thought that Luke's statement that he should not be forced to call 911 and that he would respect his neighbor's right not to call 911 was to the point and well stated.

People have called for laws on this issue, and there are laws on the books of different states.

Luke's position has stayed in the field of law (as supported by morality in general and individual rights in particular)- which seems appropriate to the current context. Ayn Rand's comment was comparing two ethics systems and the differences in psychology. It didn't refer to the law.

Post 9

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 11:54amSanction this postReply
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Who here has argued that Luke should be forced to call 911? Provide the link. What is it that they call fears without a factual basis?

Post 10

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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On the other hand, here is an argument that has actually been made, and it provides a coercion-free out for those who find reporting crimes an intolerable burden:

Payment in Kind

Government is a human institution. All human action comes at some finite but real cost. Even a minarchist government needs funding . There is a cost to maintain and supply a military, a court system, a police force, and the other necessities of state action, no matter how privatized those entities may be. And monetary funding is not the only requirement for the existence of a government. If no person is willing to fight for the military of a state or serve in the police force, there can be no government. Police and military and even judges and legislators are not altruists. They do not work selflessly, nor under self-sacrificial circumstances. The right to life you imagine you have is not a claim on theirs.

When designing a government it must serve the interests of the governed. But it must also serve the interests of those who govern — and in two senses. Those who govern are humans. They must not be expected to work for free, or at a loss, or counter to their own self interests. And they must have the tools necessary to their professional interest in protecting rights, which itself must be rational and attainable and not self-defeating.

If, for example, the police are to fight force, they must be allowed to use force. The military must be given clear goals and cannot be given impossible goals. They cannot be told to defeat an enemy without upsetting anyone. To ask people to serve in a voluntary military as ill-equipped pawns who will be deployed in a surge only to please one faction then be brought home whether or not their task is accomplished in order to please another faction is to ask them to be sacrificial objects to fickle whims. To ask a politician to leave successful private life and serve as a state governor only to face maliciously brought harassment lawsuits to be defended against at her own expense is to expect only power mad altruists to hold public-office.

Those who protect us from others who threaten us with force must get paid for their services. This was as true during the dimmest of the Dark Ages as it is now, and as it was before the pyramids were built. Amongst savage palaeolithic tribes the men went to war as needed and the women folk supported them. During the Middle Ages the peasants fed the lord and his horses and the lord, presumably, fought to protect the manor. Peasants and savages paid for their protection in kind. Now we pay for our protection in money, which is better for all concerned. But some still pay in kind and are in turn rewarded in kind with pensions and honor and scholarships and citizenship. And there was nothing wrong with the fact that once, according to their circumstances, all men paid in kind.

Our modern military is supported by the most sophisticated system of trade this world has ever seen. No foe can beat it and its backers in a fair fight. It is only when we fail to provide for its other proper professional interests, like a clear plan to follow, and a free hand to fight, that it falters in its mission. In the days when there were wars but there was no money, such self-sabotage was much more rare and the needs of war were known direct. Imagine, if you will, the fate of the peasant, who, when the Mongols were at the gate, said, "You cannot expect me to fight for the state, it would be altruism! You may be lord, but I am no slave!" Were he somehow to live, and were the barbarians repulsed, what do you think his fate would be next time he was caught outside the gate when the horde attacked? Would not his peers refuse to provide the aid he himself held back the day before? Would they not tell him this? "We cannot risk raising the gate. Good luck! And fend for yourself."

The modern state depends upon payment in money from its citizens for the protection that some men offer others. It also requires that those who serve with their labor do so with honor and integrity, which normally they do, at least those in uniform. But it also requires other things from all of us, whether we pay taxes or we serve in the armed forces or not. We each of us must testify honestly in court if called. We must pay attention to the issues at hand in an election, and the integrity of those for whom we vote to put in charge of the men with guns. And, in addition, we must also, so far as we are able and would not ourselves be put in harm's way, report crimes or otherwise act as reasonable first responders when the situation warrants.

This is the necessity of a free state. If we wish to benefit from the protection of the law, we must pay for it, in money or in kind. The need for us to report crimes and to take other reasonable actions is a necessary prerequisite of the police and others doing their jobs. We cannot expect the police to fight crimes we do not report. If you can look out the window when you hear a woman's screams, can you not call the police to (one hopes) prevent a murder? If a car crashes into a tree on your lawn, is it unreasonable for you to take the initiative to turn off the ignition key so that when the police and ambulance arrive they do not need to call for the fire brigade to extinguish an otherwise easily preventable blaze before they act?

If you opt not to act in such situations, perhaps you have not initiated force yourself. But have you not refused to pay in kind for the sort of protections you yourself would want? The state must not initiate force against you. Not even to punish you actively for your inaction. But if you refuse to pay your taxes, do others still have a responsibility to labor to protect you? Are they your slaves? If the legislature determines that in order to redress crime, one must, as a rule, report crimes when one sees them, not under threat of jail, but under threat of reciprocal withdrawal, is this not a reasonable expectation of payment in kind? Does it not warrant a warning that refusal to pay comes with termination of services?

Of course there are details. That is why we have wise judges and cautious legislatures and fifty state laboratories in which to work out, in the real world, how best to implement our principles. One of our principles is that the police are not our slaves. If refusal to report a crime is made grounds for the temporary withdrawal of police protection (in lieu of payment of a fine if you want that protection to remain interrupted) then does the person who refuses to act have grounds to complain if others refuse to aid him in return? Is the withdrawal of services unpaid-for the initiation of force? Of course the alleged conscientious objector's actions cannot be arbitrarily judged. The benefit of the doubt would have to go with the supposedly negligent party. But there are those who would shirk their responsibility to support the state that protects them. Some people undoubtedly do hold themselves apart from the law. And in respect for them as persons they should be treated as they wish, as outlaws.

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Post 11

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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The idea that one must, at every opportunity, "either" report a crime in progress "or" opt out of crime protection by the state misses the rational third alternative, namely participating at one's discretion.
  • I do not drive a rental car every minute I rent it yet I pay for every minute I rent it -- and Hertz does not penalize me for this by terminating our relationship.
  • I do not occupy my house every living minute I own it yet I effectively pay property taxes every living minute I own it -- and the county does not penalize me for this by terminating our relationship.
  • I do not always file a claim for health insurance even though I pay premiums consistently -- and my insurance company does not penalize me for this by terminating our relationship.
  • I do not call 911 at every opportunity yet I pay for it constantly through taxes to finance the 911 system that is "supposed" to protect me -- and the government should not penalize me for this by terminating our relationship.
I consider it perfectly rational to pay for a system one intends to use at one's discretion -- and to expect protection when requested by paying parties.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/10, 12:58pm)


Post 12

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 1:00pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you for the refreshing argument for which my sanction.

The claim is not made that one must go around looking for crimes to report.

The notion is that if there really are circumstances of deprived indifference, say, a stabbing victim collapses in your vestibule and rather than call the police you step over him and go to the movies, the claim could be brought that you have, by your actions, shown that you do not want to participate in the crime reporting system. Perhaps upon a hearing a judge could say that unless you pay compensation, in recognition of your choice to opt out of the system you will not be able to call for police protection for a certain period.

Money alone doesn't fight crime. Not only does there have to be police, someone has to report it. If, say, a man is bleeding and unconscious in the hall of your apartment building it is unlikely that either he or his attacker will report it to the authorities.

I have not formulated a specific statute. Perhaps one cannot objectively be formulated. But I do believe that I have shown that there is a way, in those rare circumstances when depraved indifference does exist, for the state to react justly to a person's intentional negligence without initiating force against him.

If my system amounts to the initiation of force, I'd be interested in seeing an example.

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Post 13

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
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If your system takes money from someone to protect them (on the basis of individual rights) and then does not protect them because they failed some good Samaritan clause a politician cooked up (which you admit you are unable to forumlate) then it is a case of fraud or theft - a violation of individual rights.

You said, " ...by your actions, shown that you do not want to participate in the crime reporting system." Not true. Just as Luke said, not driving a rental car when the rent has been paid is not permission for the rental car people to weasel out on their part.

You said, "Perhaps upon a hearing a judge could say that unless you pay compensation, in recognition of your choice to opt out of the system you will not be able to call for police protection for a certain period."

So you want to take the tax dollars, then levy a fine ("compensation") based upon a crime that was not a violation of individual rights, and then deprive the person of the protection government was properly instituted for. You don't see any violation of individual rights in the fine?

Your proposition is just a form of "duty to the state" that is twisted around and limited so as to better appeal to libertarian sensibilities. But it is still an attempt to make people do things that are good for society at the expense of a strict and severe observation of individual rights.

Post 14

Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 6:46pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, could you repost this question to the "who did the moral thing thread?" We need to keep these questions in one place an I just answered you at length there.

Post 15

Monday, January 11, 2010 - 11:39amSanction this postReply
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Ted, I put a copy of my post on that thread.

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