About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 20

Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I bought this book and I highly recommend it.  It is well organized and indexed so that if you want to read about Ayn Rand's views on various topics, you can find it very easily.  I really like the Q&A format and its nice to be able to have this insight into her views without being told what to think. 

I'm curious, are any of her talks on video?

Kat


(edit - don't you guys go dissing my friend Linda.  Dayaaaam, how do I always seem to miss the Beatle banter around here?)

(Edited by katdaddy on 11/24, 9:25am)


Post 21

Monday, December 26, 2005 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
One of the questions Rand addresses in Ayn Rand Answers (p. 154) is the following: "Is the choice to focus a rational choice?" She replies,

No, it's a primary choice--that is, you won't be rational if your mind isn't focused. But conversely, once you've acquired the rudiments of reason, you focus your mind consciously and volitionally. But how do you learn to focus it originally? In the same way an infant learns to focus his eyes. He is not born with his eyes in focus; focusing his eyes is an acquired attribute, though it's done automatically. (I'm not sure whether it's entirely automatic; but from what we can observe, no volition on the infant's part is necessary.) Why does he learn to focus them? Because he's trying to see--to perceive. Similarly, an infant or young child learns to focus his mind in the form of wanting to know something--to understand clearly. That is the beginning from which a fully conscious, rational focus comes. [This was in answer to a question asked at her lecture, "A Nation's Unity," at the Ford Hall Forum in Boston in 1972.]

I'm having some difficulty with her reply. I would have thought the questioner was asking if the choice to focus were something that could be viewed as rational (i.e., as a choice that is rationally desirable and for which one is morally responsible). This is certainly the impression one gets from Branden's articles on "The Objectivist Theory of Volition," which appeared originally in the February 1966 issue of The Objectivist, in which he writes:

Man's freedom to focus or not to focus, to think or not to think, is a unique kind of choice that must be distinguished from any other category of choice.

It must be distinguished from the decision to think about a particular subject: what a man thinks about, in any given case, depends on his values, interests, knowledge and context. It must be distinguished from the decision to think about a particular physical action, which again depends on a man's values, interests, knowledge and context. These decisions involve causal antecedents of a kind which the choice to focus does not.

The primary choice to focus, to set one's mind to the purpose of cognitive integration, is a first cause in a man's consciousness. On the psychological level, this choice is causally irreducible; it is the highest regulator in the mental system; it is subject to man's direct, volitional control. In relation to it, all other choices and decisions are regulators.

...Just as a man cannot escape the implicit knowledge that the function of his mind is volitional, so he cannot escape the implicit knowledge that he should think, that to be conscious is desirable, that his efficacy as a living entity depends on it.

So, when Rand replies to the question, "Is the choice to focus a rational choice?" by answering, "No, it's a primary choice--that is, you won't be rational if your mind isn't focused," she implies that it is not a choice that can be viewed as rational (i.e., as rationally desirable) from the perspective of the person facing it. Observe that Branden also refers to it as a "primary" choice, by which he means a "first cause in man's consciousness." He does not, however, suggest that it is not a rational choice. On the contrary, he writes that a person "cannot escape the implicit knowledge that he should think, that to be conscious is desirable..." The answer to this paradox might seem to lie in the term "implicit knowledge." However, to say that one "knows" that one should think, that to be conscious is desirable, implies rationality, however "implicit" one's knowledge; otherwise there can be no rational meaning to the terms "should" or "desirable," which are normative terms implying a rational standard of value.

Also, observe the paradox between Rand's remarks at the start of her answer, in which she says that the choice to focus is not a rational choice, and her remarks at the end of her answer, in which she says, "That is the beginning from which a fully conscious, rational focus comes." (emphasis added) Whether this is a contradiction or simply an ambiguity in her explanation depends on what she means by "a fully conscious rational focus." If she means "a fully conscious rational choice to focus," then it is a contradiction. Unfortunately, I suspect that she may indeed have meant it in this sense, for she states that "once you've acquired the rudiments of reason, you focus your mind consciously and volitionally"--which is to say, consciously and rationally); otherwise, of what relevance is the phrase, "once you've acquired the rudiments of reason"?

Does anyone else have a different take on this? If so, I'd be interested in hearing your explanation.

- Bill

(Edited by William Dwyer
on 12/26, 9:50pm)


Post 22

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 6:19amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Rational choice" here means "choice made on the basis of reason." It is not a rational choice, but once it is made, reason can proceed with everything else.

Since this choice is a precondition of reason, it should be made. But one does not reason toward the choice. It is a primary--the essence of free will. The will to be aware.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 12/27, 10:11am)


Post 23

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 6:23amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill,

I assume her answer at Ford Hall Forum was impromptu, and she addressed older people only in the last sentence you quoted. She didn't address an infant or young child in her written work, so I regard this as an improvement. There is no need to assume that thinking begins in the same way at all times. For an infant or young child, thinking is triggered by external objects or events. It is automatic and arational. Later when the child is capable of initiating thought -- it seems this requires a level of self-awareness that develops after age three -- then it can be a rational choice. Note that self-awareness is not mentioned by either Rand or Branden.

I don't fully agree with Branden's second paragraph. I can distinguish abstractly the choice to think apart from the choice to think about a particular subject; however, every case of choosing to think is a choice to think about something particular.


Post 24

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 6:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I would disagree with Merlin about that, of course.

Post 25

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
> There she was at one of Leonard Peikoff's study sessions in 1978 and someone asks an question and she labels it "dishonest."...with Leonard Peikoff checking IDs at the gate, who would have been there but a lapdog? And she slapped him. Sad. [Michael M]

I was at one of Leonard Peikoff's sessions in his apartment in the East 30's and Ayn Rand came over for an hour or two session in which people could ask her anything. I'm sure she was aware when she came that she would get questions she had answered many times before. She was patience personified then - one of the things which struck me about her. There were two philosophers or philosophy students who endlessly asked her about a form of skeptical or linguistic analysis argument they couldn't answer. And she went over and over it, repeated question after repeated question. No tone of disapproval or impatience or superiority or being patronizing, just the sustained wholehearted effort to explain at whatever level the person was at.

Phil

Post 26

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 2:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil,

I'm no expert on the life of Rand, but I've read enough to suggest that Rand had (at times) a rather imperious (if there is such a word) and condescending attitude toward those with whom she disagreed.

For example, Raimundo in his biography of Rothbard quotes contemporanous letters of Rothbard describing how Rand would denounce people whom she believed irrational.


Post 27

Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hospers told me that when he was discussing philosophy with Rand at her apartment, she would sometimes get angry, and would leave the room until she cooled down, then come back and discuss the issue in a calm and reasonable manner. Interesting, huh! That shows that even though she could get angry on occasion, she also had the ability to overcome it and to exercise patience. I had also heard the same thing about Rand that Phil mentions--namely, her exquisite patience in answering questions. This was no doubt in the early years. I think she became less patient as she got older, and one must remember that she was not in the best of health during her later years, which could have had a negative effect on her moods and her tolerance for disagreement.

- Bill

Post 28

Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
> I had also heard the same thing about Rand that Phil mentions--namely, her exquisite patience in answering questions. This was no doubt in the early years.

Bill, no, I'm not that old :-)...It was around the end of the seventies/start of the eighties.

Post 29

Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
> Hospers told me that when he was discussing philosophy with Rand at her apartment, she would sometimes get angry, and would leave the room until she cooled down, then come back and discuss the issue in a calm and reasonable manner. [Bill D]

That tells me a lot about a person. How many people do you know who realize they have a responsibility to try and control themselves, and who realize their instant emotions are not always right, and then make the visible struggle to master themselves. Enormously impressive.

One could only hope people would do that on this list and other venues instead of posting in anger or with insults for example..rather than worrying so much whether Ayn Rand was 'perfect' on this issue...when they are not even within cruise missile distance of perfection with regard to venting and anger themselves.

Phil

Post 30

Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
     Clearly, 'rational choice' is a quite (in earlier days, 'relative' would be the term, non?) contextually-varied concept. I see little to argue about any near-contradictory diff  'twixt Branden's and Rand's argued views re volition. I just see...different...perspectives re the same subject; especially since they agree that there is a 'uniqueness' about volition re motivations.

     Many (too many, methinks) see the term 'rational' as meaning absolutely nothing more than well-versed use of ratiocination (where use of multiple sorites or hypothetico-'conditional' connections) is the only meaning, plus, such used as the base of a decision. --- As an aside: What this view implies about the 'rationality' of those (whether 12yrs-o or 32) still learning all-the-established-'rules'-of-such, I have no idea.
 
     However, I note that neither Ayn nor Nathaniel defined 'rational decision-making' nor 'volition' in terms of deciding to 'focus'. They both, one way or another, merely stressed that whether or not to increase what focus-level already exists...or...to allow it to decrease/shift-to-another-subject, was the point of the whole subject of this unique choice called 'volition'.

     THIS is where 'ratiocination'-rationality would be applicable, if 'chosen' to be used...or not: the increase/decrease choice-alternative decision

     I see Rand's answer as responding to the questions in terms of ratiocination (and, I'm sure that over-all, she saw 'rationality', per se, as way more than merely that), whereas Nathaniel was clearly responding to the more broader context the term's interpretable within.

     I really don't see what the prob's about. Possibly a bit confusing (due to the term 'rational's varied levels of meaning; in effect, 'equivocation'/not-same-page misunderstandings), but, not really perplexing.

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 2/18, 11:02pm)


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


User ID Password or create a free account.