RoR: Forum

I've taken up Jeff's challenge to 'fill the vacuum.' :-) And if this contribution to the CD Gallery doesn't encourage a flood of diverse attentions, recriminations and recommendations, then surely nothing will. :-))

Post 1

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 8:01pm

My copy is on LPs, not CDs. And the set includes the story of Solti's quest to conduct the cycle, against the vehement opposition of Nazi-leaning traditional Wagnerians of his day - Solti was a Hungarian Jewish Atheist who survived Hitler's war by playing the piano in bars in Switzerland. The history of Solti's recording, "Ring Resounding," is a great - a recommended read, and Solti a real-life Randian hero.

Post 2

Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 9:14pm

I'd rather have my finger nails pulled out than listen to Wagner.

The only versions I can abide are Dame Anna Russell's and Bugs Bunney's. (Elmer Fudd's "I killed the wabbit" is superb.)

Why anyone would want to be assaulted by hours of the, "Theme from Superman," is beyond me.

Regi

Post 3

Friday, May 28, 2004 - 8:29pm

Regii: "I'd rather have my finger nails pulled out than listen to Wagner."

Good for you, Regi. Shall I put some pliers in the post? You can send me a tape of your howling. :-)

In any case, I suspect your response says more about you than it does about Wagner. :-)

"Why anyone would want to be assaulted by hours of the, "Theme from Superman," is beyond me."

What's beyond me here is WTF you're talking about? There may be some who do understand what you're talking about, but I'm afraid I'm not amongst them.

Adam: What a great story about Solti. I confess I hadn't realised his own heroism. He is certainly a conductor who seems to focus on the drama inherent in an operatic score. His recording of 'Rigoletto' is also one of my very favourites.

Solti's war story brings to mind Toscanini's own opposition to fascism. Himself a Wagner enthusiast and booked to play 'Parsifal' at the 1933 Bayreuth festival, Toscanini withdrew immediately upon Hitler's ascension to power, sending Hitler a telegram telling him he would never play there as long as Hitler remained in power . He played in (the unoccupied) Vienna instead. Once Italy too brought in racial laws, the Italian Toscanini booked a tour of Palestine for the inaugural seaon of the Palestine Philharmonic - an orchestra made up largely of refugees from fascist oppression.

Do you have other favourite recordings of the Ring operas, Adam? And is 'The Ring' your favourite Wagner?

Post 4

Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 5:49am

Not sure how relevant this is but I think I read somewhere that part of John Williams' score for the Christopher Reeve/Gene Hackman Superman movie was some sort of tribute to Wagner.

Post 5

Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 7:29am

Peter, Matthew,

I'm sorry. It is true I'm not overly fond of Wagner, but I was really just having some fun. I'd listen to it if I really had to, but if I had my preferences, Id listen to something else.

Matthew's half right about the little "superman" joke; the other half is that the theme for the old TV version is straight Wanger.

So, Peter, please don't put the pliers in the mail. If I were continuing my rib, I'd say, if you want hear howling, just put your Wagner CD on.

Seriously, I have a question for you knowledgeable gents. I adore Giacomo Meyerbeer, but have great difficulty finding much recorded in any medium, since he is certainly one of the neglected greats. Do you have any ideas?

If you are not familiar with him, this note might be interesting:

"Giacomo Meyerbeer (1791-1864) one of the most famous and successful composers of 19th century opera and the originator of French Grand Opera, a style imitated by many other well known composers, including Hector Berlioz, Giuseppe Verdi and Richard Wagner. Due to the paucity of performances of his operas in the major and minor opera venues, Meyerbeer's music is not well known today."

And that's a shame, because his music is absolutely gorgeous.

Regi

Post 6

Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 6:56pm

Regi: Luckily I hadn't yet posted the pliers, so they're still here. What say I leave them in the envelope with your address on, and send them only if I see you beating on Dr Diabolical too lustily. :-)

Regarding Meyerbeer: Unfortunately Regi, I've hardly heard anything by Meyerbeer - at least knowingly - although I do have a wonderfully poignant duet from Robert le Diable sung by Anna Moffo, which is beautiful - but not breathtaking. However, all I really know about him are the stories told about him by Wagnerians, which are not always kind. :-)

Wagner himself began by admiring Meyerbeer, and ended by hating him. This has more to do with Wagner's disgraceful reception by the Paris Jockey Club than it does Meyerbeer however, who had helped Wagner to stay afloat when in penury in Paris. But the behaviour was a little ungracious to say the least, particularly as Wagner's very early operas (Rienzi and 'The Ban on Love') are apparently very Meyerbeerian - big on spectacle and grandeur, with occasional glimpses of delicacy.

Perhaps if complete Meyerbeerian works are not easily available you could try and hunt down albums by singers in which Meyerbeer's pieces appear?

Post 7

Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 5:56pm

Peter,

You said: Luckily I hadn't yet posted the pliers ...,

Well, that's a relief.

I ... send them only if I see you beating on Dr Diabolical too lustily.

Very unlikely. We happen to share the honorable title of, "Saddamite," conferred on us by a certain Mr. "Danger." Besides, anyone one who would intentionally do something to "hurt," Chris would have to be a very evil person.

Despite our very strong disagreement about one subject, I have never known Chris to be disagreeable or to loose his sense of humor, and we both feel perfectly comfortable being frank and using strong language, because, while the issue is personal to each of us, there is nothing personal in our debate. (Although, I'm still waiting for Chris to use strong language. Did you read his article? I told someone else, "He [Chris] warned me his review was supposedly 'rough.' Frankly, I've received rougher treatment from my kids," which is the truth. Chris would have to take lessons before he could be mean.)

Thanks for the very interesting comments on what you "don't know," about Meyerbeer and the Wagner connection. (Your "ignorance" surpasses erudition.) That was all new to me.

Regi

Post 8

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 5:51am

(Strings: eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?)

My familiarity with Wagner�s music is not extensive, but I like several things that I have heard, even including, once in a very great while, the �Prelude and Liebestod� from Tristan und Isolde. Some of my favorites are the Sailors� Chorus from Der fliegende Holl�nder, and from Tannh�user the absolutely fabulous march �The Entrance of the Wedding Guests� and the Overture. In fact, I was so impressed by these last two that I obtained the full scores and did piano reductions of them, omitting nothing, for purposes of learning how they were orchestrated.

Wagner is a master melodist who decided his gift was irrelevant to his artistic vision. For this I suspect we have to thank Schopenhauer and ultimately Kant! For my views on the paramount importance of melody see my article Evaluating Music�and Franz Lehar.

I forget exactly when I gave myself the assignment of writing the most preposterous and inappropriate lyrics possible to the great tune of the Tannh�user Overture. I invite you now to fire up your stereo and match these words to Wagner�s melody:

To the Tune of the Tannh�user Overture:

Oh me, oh my,

I like a butterfly flying.

Oh me, oh my,

Don�t like to hear small babies crying.

Aren�t kittens too cute?

Very frisky to boot.

Hey, that�s sort of redundant�

What was I thinking of?

I was raised on a farm;

�Pops� would raise an alarm

Lest the crops come to harm

When crows got in the corn.

We had scarecrows, it�s true.

But there�s not much they do;

�Cause the crows will get used

To scarecrows pretty quickly.

One day I said: �Pa,

�When cares start to gnaw

�Simply go �Tra-la-la, la-la-la, la-la-la��

�Go �Me, oh my,

(Strings: flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap)

� �I like a butterfly flying.

(Strings: flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap)

� �Oh me, oh my,

(Strings: flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, flap)

� �Don�t like to hear small babies crying.

(Strings: wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah)

� �Aren�t kittens too cute?

(Strings: yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh, yeh)

� �Very frisky to boot.

(Strings: heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh)

� �Hey, that�s sort of redundant�

(Strings: er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er)

� �What was I thinking of?� �

Papa reached for a gun�

(oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops)

I said, �Pops, I�m your son,

(oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops)

And you have just the one.�

(oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops)

Three shots rang �mid the corn.

(oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops)

Smart to duck I was not,

(quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack)

And the farm I had bought.

(moo, moo, moo, moo, moo, moo, moo, moo, moo)

I had one final thought

(ah!, ah!, ah!, ah!, ah!, ah!, ah!, ah!, ah!)

While sinking �neath a scarecrow:

(yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes)

(�Oh me, oh my,

(�I like a butterfly flying.

(�Oh me, oh my,

(�Don�t like to hear small babies crying.

(�Kittens � frisky plus cute!

(�Oops � redundant � aw, shoot ��)

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 8/06, 7:45am)

Post 9

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 8:34pm

Rodney,

You succeeded in the assignment you gave yourself: Your lyrics are indeed preposterous and overwhelmingly inappropriate. And where is the Wagnerian alliteration! Wagner would have wept. You did however give me an excuse to play and enjoy Toscanini's masterly performance of the Overture again - sadly, however, that now means I can never hear it again without the lietmotifs being entirely dramaticlly inappropriate! Ah well. :-)

I agree with you about the great 'Prelude and Liebestod' from Tristan and Isolde: surely this is what Rand had in mind when she described Richard Halley's music? Bear in mind that she had included Wagner in her list of creators in her early draft of the Fountainhead, and she didn't choose to name her character Johann Sebastian Halley, or Ludwig van Halley, and certainly not Wolfgang Amadeus Halley - 'Wolfie' was after all "pre-music." :-).

The music of Richard Halley's Fifth Concerto streamed from his keyboard, past the glass of the window, & spread through the air over the lights of the valley. It was a symphony of triumph. The notes flowed up, they spoke of rising & they were the rising itself, they were the essence & the form of upward motion, they seemed to embody every human thought & action that had ascent as its motive. It was a sunburst of sound, breaking out of hiding & spreading open. It had the freedom of release & the tension of purpose. It swept space clean & left nothing but the joy of unobstructed effort. Only a faint echo within the sounds spoke of that from which the music had escaped, but spoke in laughing astonishment at the discovery that there was no ugliness or pain & there never had had to be. It was the song of an immense deliverance.

That to me is the perfect description of 'Isolde's Transfiguration' - which is what I believe Wagner himself called the 'Liebestod,' which he applied instead to the prelude, in which light and dark both seem to compete.

I agree with you too that Wagner was a masterful melodist, who unfortunately chose to shackle this gift somewhat. I don't agree however that he decided it irrelevant to his artistic vision , as his masterful manipulation of his lietmotifs is crucial to the dramatic flow of the music-dramas, and when it comes together (as it does so spectacularly at the conclusion of Gotterdammerung) it is simply overwhelming!

Post 10

Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 9:25am