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Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 10:06pmSanction this postReply
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Greetings.

I have created this thread for the purpose of devoting it to the discussion of Mr. Firehammer's article, "Perception: A Mistake at the Heart of Objectivist Epistemology," which has been recently published on The Rational Argumentator, and whose text can be accessed at http://www.geocities.com/rational_argumentator/perception.html.

Perception: A Mistake at the Heart of Objectivist Epistemology:
June 26, 2004:
Reginald Firehammer reveals a key mistake that Ayn Rand, Leonard Peikoff, and David Kelley all overlooked within the Objectivist theory of perception. He offers an elegant solution to this error, which may well be the most profound fundamental development in filosofy in the past 25 years. 


I am
G. Stolyarov II
Atlas Count 665Atlas Count 665Atlas Count 665Atlas Count 665


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Monday, June 28, 2004 - 4:07pmSanction this postReply
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G.,

thanks for posting that essay... I thought I could breeze through it in one sitting; I realize now that I'm going to have to bookmark it and read it slowly and perhaps more than once, to really understand the point being made.

This essay reminded me once again of Rand's curious regard of childhood as some kind of state of horror... Her writings on the topics of childhood always seemed filled with a sense of foreboding.

I can't decide whether she thought children were precious and it's a nightmare, the manner in which they are typically raised, or if children are some sort of nightmare that no self-valuing adult should put him/herself through.

Her comments about the sensory or perceptual chaos that a child must navigate through, seem to reflect this flavor.

Too bad that we may never know what events occured in Rand's own childhood, to inspire her to have the attitude that she did towards children and childhood.  I've always found them way off.

(Edited by Orion Reasoner on 6/28, 4:09pm)


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Thursday, July 1, 2004 - 5:53amSanction this postReply
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At the request of Mr. Firehammer, I have re-posted my comments on his essay to this thread. -- WT

Greetings, Regi et al.

My apologies for bringing a slow-moving vehicle into the fast lane here, but this discussion has prompted me to put together some thoughts I have had that have been loose for too long.

 

I took the time to read your essay on perception, Regi, that Mr. Stolyarov kindly provided a link to in another thread.  I am not well-read in ontology or epistemology, so I cannot assess Mr. Stolyarov’s claim that your insight is the neatest thing in philosophy since sliced bread.  I can say that what you’ve written strikes me as commonsense, which is no slight to your article, seeing that commonsense is so uncommon.

 

Moreover, it started to shine some light on the hash I found Rand’s epistemology to be.  I could not digest what appeared to be an unnecessary divide between sensation and perception.  It seemed to me that Objectivism was making an extra step out of the process of comprehending information I collected from my senses, and that it was a step that seemed to add nothing more than what my senses must have already told me.

 

Furthermore, Peikoff’s discursions into the sensations and perceptions of newborns and lesser animals struck me as tying Objectivist epistemology more to how our mind and senses work rather than what they do.  The “how” is a subject for science, not philosophy.  Thus, I found the whole edifice of Objectivist epistemology to be erected upon the quicksand of scientific discovery -- i.e., it could disappear as a great falsehood if science determined otherwise.

 

Add to all that my impatience with the fundamentals of philosophy, as opposed to its applications, and you’ll understand my appreciation for a clearly written exposition on the subject such as yours.

 

All that said, I would like to see if I’ve got the gist of your argument:

 

1. Existence exists.

2. Everything that exists has a unique identity.

3. Identity consists of qualities which both distinguish a thing from other things and also establish a thing’s relationship to other things.

3. Those qualities are prior to my awareness of them – i.e., they are metaphysical.

4. I perceive those qualities through my senses.

5. Because any given set of qualities is an identity, I perceive the identity of a thing by perceiving its qualities.

6. Therefore, my perception of identity is not epistemological.

7. Epistemology begins with my comprehension of what I perceive (i.e., what my mind does with the information it has collected), not perception itself.

 

Because reality is not in any manner dependent upon my awareness of any aspect of it, this is what makes sense to me regarding my perception of it.  Unless I can somehow will a hallucination, I cannot alter my perception of what exists around me.  My perception is what it is.  It's metaphysical because it is a strictly mechanical process that exists and operates without regard to my volition (with the exception of choosing to focus my senses upon something).  Therefore, epistemology begins with what I do with the information I perceive; or put another way, epistemology begins where I can start making mistakes. ;)

 

Regards,
Bill


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Thursday, July 1, 2004 - 7:52amSanction this postReply
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Greetings.

Interesting comments, Orion Reasoner and Mr. Tingley. Concerning Rand's attitude toward children, I had always found it to be twofold. On one hand, Rand respected the integrity of a child's attempts to comprehend the external world, the seriousness and focus with which a child pursues knowledge of his surroundings, the absolute lack of frivolity in a child's behavior until/unless he is turned into a vehicle of the mainstream culture by his peers or "progressive" education. On the other hand, however, Rand tended to view the consciousness of infants as developing far later than it actually does. My oldest memory from my existence comes from the time I was four months old; my parents had just bought a new drawer for my room, and I recall myself curiously examining it from my crib. I saw everything in the room in precisely the same color and detail as any adult would perceive it. This recollection further casts doubt on Rand's assertion that children lack perception as opposed to sensation. 

This said, I do not think Rand detested children herself; I simply think that she focused on the truth about children insufficiently, which has led her to form some flawed conclusions, and some of her modern disciples to hold views that are far more flawed than anything Rand could have herself thought of.

I can draw certain parallels to Mr. Tingley's comments on Objectivist epistemology; during real-time discourses where I had to present a case for the fundamentals of Objectivist epistemology, I always found my arguments somewhat awkward w.r.t. distinguishing sensation from perception-- at times I sensed (vaguely, however) that the two were separated only artificially, at other times that I was describing the same process (I even happened to use similar adjectives for this purpose). This treatise by Mr. Firehammer has helped me understand why this was the case.

I am
G. Stolyarov II
Atlas Count 665Atlas Count 665Atlas Count 665Atlas Count 665


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Thursday, July 1, 2004 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for posting this...a very insightful essay by Mr. Firehammer, which was very appealing.

I also had found the line between sensation and perception a bit lacking in essence, nor was it ever substantiated.  This essay really fit the facts.

Mr. Stolyarov, thank you for posting it.  Mr. Firehammer, thank you for your insight into this matter.  Well done.


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Thursday, July 1, 2004 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Thank you very much for your thoughtful comments. I am very pleased you found the article helpful, but more importantly, understandable.

Regi


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Thursday, July 1, 2004 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Stoyarov,

I want to thank you again for posting my article on The Rational Argumentator and also for the very nice comments you have made.

I thought your comments about your personal recollections from the age of four months particularly interesting, because I also have vivid memories from a very early age. I say this because it is evidently an uncommon experience, because when I have mentioned this in the past, it has always been receive with extreme incredulity. (How does one prove such a thing.) No, matter, I have proved it to myself many times, by relating to my parents objects, events, and people I recall with detailed descriptions, which always astonished them but which they assured me were exactly right.

Of course, until I learned this experience is uncommon, I was always surprised when others could scarcely remember their early years in school, much less anything before that. I can remember every detail of every room I attended in school, recall the names of almost all those who were in my classes, the names of all my teachers, the subjects we "studied" in every grade, and exactly how often I skipped school, which are the most delightful memories of all (and I skipped a lot).

Some of those times were to go to the beach, or spend the day in one of the "club houses" we kids built, surreptitiously smoking and imagining we were engaged in some great adventure, but I spent a lot of my skipped days in the library reading science books, or at the chemistry lab of one of the leather factories in my city with a wonderful chemist who befriended me and talked to me about chemistry, which in those days (fourth through seventh grade) intensely interested me. (Of course I was bored to tears in high school chemistry classes.)

Enough!

Thanks again.

Regi


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