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Friday, September 10, 2004 - 5:26pmSanction this postReply
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First of all, this is not my article. I am posting it for a friend who is no longer able to post here. For the record, he was not exactly, "banned," and his account was removed at his own request, as he explains.

I posted this to, "Dissent," not because it is in dissent of Objectivism, because it is, whether you argree with it or not, a defense of Objectivism, from the writers point of view; the dissent is with SOLO's version of "Objectivism."

It is also in dissent because this writer was subject to a special kind of review that possibly might have prevented this from being posted if he had posted it himself, although I doubt very much if it would have been repressed.

___________________________________

 
Hi, boys & girls.

I, the notorious Citizen Rat a.k.a. Bill Tingley, am here to share some final thoughts with you before I move onto greener pastures.

First, a disclaimer.  (I've learned the hard way never to assume the obvious is obvious to Objectivists, so let me state the obvious. ;)  SOLO is Linz's and Joe's ball.  They have no obligation to let me play with it if they don't want me to.  They can say no for whatever reason they want to.  Indeed, they don't even have to give me a reason.  In short, they owe me nothing.

Second, a little background.  I stopped participating in the SOLO forum a few weeks ago when I found out that SOLO's executive director, Joe Rowlands, put me in a special group requiring his approval before I posted anything to the board.  As this restriction does not even apply to brand-spanking new members of SOLO (in fact, as far as I could tell, I was the only beneficiary of this special attention), I thought I'd asked Joe what his reasons were for this decision.

Joe, quite promptly to his credit, graciously informed me that if I couldn't figure out SOLO's policy on this point that was my problem.  He was right, of course.  Fathoming Joe's reasons for wanting to control me would be my problem should I put myself in such a position.  However, the idea of having to obtain Joe's sanction on anything I might want to say to my fellow SOLO members somehow lacked appeal to me, so I eliminated the problem by asking Joe to terminate my membership in SOLO.  He kindly granted my request.

Third, does any of this matter?  If you understand and agree with the points Regi Firehammer made in his "Shoot the Bastards" article, the answer is no.  You already know that people like me who are informed by Objectivist philosophy without adopting it as a creed are friends, not foes, of liberty.  You are not blinkered by the petty factionalism inherent to rationalism run amok (which Objectivism misunderstood frequently devolves into).  So when it comes to a comrade in arms, you don't care how many angels he thinks dance upon the head of a pin.  What you want to know is whether he'll pass the ammo when the battle comes.

For those of you who are less sanguine about the value of non-Objectivist advocates of liberty such as me and so do not look much beyond SOLO's walls, Joe's need to supervise what I say to you in this forum should give you some pause.  What is it that he wants to control?  Before I answer that, let's rule a couple of things out about Joe.  Is Joe just being petty because I've out-argued him on occasion?  No, I don't think so.  Is Joe a bigot?  While I do not doubt Joe has a low opinion of my Catholicism, I don't believe he censured me for that reason.  Is Joe acting as a responsible administrator to rein in a trouble-maker?  I think Joe understands the difference between challenging someone on his facts or his logic and gratuitous flaming.

What Joe wants to control is no small thing.  Joe does not care about me the messenger.  But he is concerned about the message I have brought to this forum, a message in the service of Objectivism that is antithetical to the very purpose of SOLO.  Let me preface this.  As an interested observer of Objectivism over the past twenty-five years, I have witnessed a sea-change in the movement behind the philosophy.  This change is more profound than Kelley's challenge to the ARI establishment, for it has confounded both wings of Objectivism and spurred the formation of SOLO to embrace this change.  This change is the Objectivist movement's loss of moral clarity after the fall of Communism and its subsequent surrender to post-modernism.

This surrender is not a special failing of Objectivists.  The Communist threat was a deadly serious matter.  It was responsible for the slaughter of 100 million people and the enslavement of a billion more.  It was armed to the teeth with the ability to annihilate everything good and virtuous in Western Civilization, its nemesis.  Victory over Communism with the peaceful collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 lifted a pall from the world, and in our relief most of us, quite understandably, indulged in some silliness - a post-modern holiday from history that rewarded us with an AIDS epidemic, a stock market bubble, and 9/11.

However, Objectivists should have been among the first to recognize why these disasters befell us:  Standards do matter.  Sexual perversion and promiscuity, money-for-nothing speculation, and multi-cultural non-judgmentalism epitomize the post-modern contempt for objective standards in human affairs that delivered to us AIDS, the tech bust, and 9/11.  Understanding these awful consequences of evading standards should be the special province of Objectivists.  But today we find nothing like the moral clarity of Objectivists during the Cold War era.  Quite the opposite, because the Objectivist movement has surrendered to post-modernism and its white flag is emblazoned with SOLO.

The SOLO surrender is most clearly evident in the realm of sexuality.  Human sexuality has norms and from those norms we can objectively derive standards.  This should hardly be controversial to Objectivists, yet it is anathema in SOLO to state that normality exists in human sexuality - unless the term is reduced to such subjective meaninglessness that, for example, homosexuality is normal because it feels normal to a homosexual.  Such meaninglessness is repugnant to Objectivism, but it serves its purpose for Joe and his SOLO colleagues.  It makes nothing but the most rudimentary of standards - i.e., consent - objectively discernable to guide one's sexual conduct.

Without normality in any meaningful sense, no human act can be judged superior to another.  There is no such thing as the best.  Virtue is a nullity and vice undefinable.  Thus, the triumph of post-modernism.  Why SOLO's abolition of normality, the opening of the gates to post-modern barbarism, should remain confined to human sexuality is not apparent.  While Joe, Linz, and other prominent SOLOists are not slouches in the defense of beauty and excellence in human endeavor, all is trumped by the surrender of sexuality to post-modernism.  Thus, the nihilistic virus of antinomianism spreads through the Objectivist movement. 

Of course, Rand's philosophy is not the movement of her followers.   The truths she integrated into a philosophy of objective reality remain true.  SOLO's post-modern corruption of Objectivism does not change Objectivism; it creates something other than Objectivism.  And so those who understand Firehammer's counsel to be aware of allies beyond the SOLO walls, need not slip into the maw of post-modernism along with SOLO.  You will find the truth of Objectivism outside the movement, as handholds to climb out of the maw, because that truth will sprout elsewhere in human endeavor and thought.  Why?  Because it is true.  And that truth will expose the folly of SOLO's lustful embrace of post-modernism.

That is the message Joe does not want delivered within the walls of SOLO.  Let no one cry out that the emperor has no clothes.

One last time … regards,

Bill


Post 1

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 6:06pmSanction this postReply
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Regi;
I sincerely hope that your posting of this interesting letter doesn't get you "sanctioned" in the same way!  Oh Lawks, more "sickly, sentimental feminine emotionalism" !!  so sorry Regi. :-)
Cass


Post 2

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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Cass,

It's alright. You can't help it, and that excuses just about anything around here.

But never fear. The one thing that is always true on SOLO is, so long as one is decent, Lindsay allows all opinions, because he rightly understands the only way there can be true dialogue is if it is truly free dialogue. In a free market of ideas, the best ideas may not always win, but in any other market, they do not even get to compete.

(Please don't tell anyone, but I appreciate your concern.)

Regi


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Post 3

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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regi,

not smart to post that one. most of the time i just lurk here, but i have noticed that the one big no-no of this website is taking any position that is less than totally supportive of homosexuality. all the heavyweights will come down on you if you do. this should not be a surprise considering that many of the persons deeply involved with solo, including the founder, are homosexuals. but its a great website anyway and nothing is perfect. these people do a terrific job in many ways.

von Dietz


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Post 4

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 7:03pmSanction this postReply
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Good Lord! Talk about "much ado about nothing"! Citizen Rat was placed under moderation, that's all. Didn't mean he couldn't post. I don't know what Joe's reasons were, but I know that Rat was placed under moderation at the same time as Stolyarov, who was using sneaky, dishonest back-door methods to promote his site, where near-fascism masquerading as Objectivism is promulgated.

And it's not true that even rookies can jump on unmoderated - *everyone* is moderated till he/she gets a certain number of Atlas points. That's not an attempt to fend off dissent - it's a way of protecting ourselves from nutters.

The proposition that SOLO embraces post-modernism is too ridiculous to dignify with anything other than a contemptuous dismissal. Rat sits, along with Regi & Stolyarov, on the rationalist side of the rationalist/empiricist divide. Both sides are anti-reason. Rat confuses his Catholic, intrinsicist authoritarian morality with Objectivism's, which is objective - his problem, as is his hang-up about homosexuality.

As it happens, one of the articles I shall be putting up tonight is Regi's critique of Sciabarra's monograph on homosexuality, a critique originally published in The Free Radical. I guess this is reflective of the rigid censorship that occurs on SOLO.

Linz

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Post 5

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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Linz says, "The proposition that SOLO embraces post-modernism is too ridiculous to dignify with anything other than a contemptuous dismissal. Rat sits, along with Regi & Stolyarov, on the rationalist side of the rationalist/empiricist divide. Both sides are anti-reason. Rat confuses his Catholic, intrinsicist authoritarian morality with Objectivism's, which is objective - his problem, as is his hang-up about homosexuality."

wow now that was a quick response, strongly worded too! rofl

hey Regi, when that critique of yours gets posted be sure to get plenty of rest the day before, your going to be typing your ass/fingers off trying to respond to the avalanche of responses.better you than me!

Erich von Dietz


Post 6

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 7:54pmSanction this postReply
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G72521, Linz, Cass,

See, as I told Cass, "so long as one is decent, Lindsay allows all opinions, because he rightly understands the only way there can be true dialogue is if it is truly free dialogue."

The critique Linz mentions is a no-holds barred response to Chris' pounding of my book. (This is a great debate, by the way, and Chris is at the top of his form, and Linz is unfairly giving Chris the last word, however much he purports to be the high-priest of democratic fairness ;>)

I testify that Lindsay has allowed me to say things about homosexuality that he regards as outrageous, and "rationalistic." It is not tolerance in the post-modernist inclusivist sense, but a genuine desire to allow individuals the opportunity to choose from among all ideas, those they determine to be objectively correct.

By the way, Linz, it is a totally different aspect of post-modernism Bill is accusing SOLO of, and his concern is not so much with that, but the fact that the emphasis on SOLO, in spite of your own protestation that it is a, "non-issue," does have a marginalizing effect on SOLO and Objectivism. Does not the fact that two individuals on a recent thread both remarked on this with G72521's comments above illustrate that is the perception SOLO's position creates, whether intended or not?

Regi


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Post 7

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 8:02pmSanction this postReply
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That there should be standards in sexual behavior is not debated. Do Objectivists/SOLOists believe that having multiple instances of unprotected sex with disease-ridden hookers while injecting intravenous drugs and wielding a loaded gun is acceptable, like Citizen Rat would have people believe? NO!

 

Do we accept that the only form of moral sexual behavior is lights-off, missionary position, married, man-and-woman only and then only for the purposes of procreation? NO!

 

A broader standard is not a “white flag” to post-modernism. Post-modernism says there are no standards. Objectivism says there are, but they’re not Citizen Rat’s standards.

 

We saw Stolyarov’s monistic (monastic?) sexual ethics spill over into the realm of politics in the form of “child-rearing licenses” (for married hetero couples only, of course) and “pregnancy police” to protect the “lives” of genetic material. These ideas depart radically from Objectivism.

 

Sex brings too much happiness and pleasure to be stuffed into the cramped, stale box that the Stolyarovs and Citizen Rats of the world would confine it. The purpose of philosophy is personal happiness and any attempt to stifle that cannot be considered “window-dressing.” It’s core.


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Post 8

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 8:12pmSanction this postReply
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I have to confess here that I don't think I've previously read anything by Citizen Rat, and I know I haven't read Regi's article 'Shoot the Bastards' so I don't know the background to all this.  I can only comment on the precious nonsense he's written here.

When I read what Mr Rat describes as his objections to the "Objectivist movement's loss of moral clarity after the fall of Communism and its subsequent surrender to post-modernism," and of a "nihilistic virus of antinomianism spread[ing] through the Objectivist movement" I wondered what on earth he was on about. Perhaps TOC's rampant subjectivism perhaps?  Apparently not: "the Objectivist movement," he says, "has surrendered to post-modernism and its white flag is emblazoned with SOLO."

What!?  What have I missed? It seems to boil down to two things: first, Mr Rat apparently favours intrinsicist rules of behaviour that thou-shalt-obey, rather than objective standards that guide actions; and second that "sexual perversion" isn't apparently allowed according to his chosen set of intrinsic standards. His God told him not to be a poofter, and if anyone says otherwise they've somehow surrendered to post-modernism, nihilism and the rest. It's not much of an argument. And in any case he says himself that he hasn't been banned which makes the whole thig look like idiotic grand-standing.

"SOLO's post-modern corruption of Objectivism ... is the message Joe does not want delivered within the walls of SOLO"? Now that  really is idiotic.



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Post 9

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 10:35pmSanction this postReply
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"Of course, Rand's philosophy is not the movement of her followers. The truths she integrated into a philosophy of objective reality remain true."

if anyone is interested in Ayn Rand's views on abortion and catholicism, i suggest they look in the ayn rand lexicon, under abortion and religion, respectively.

it's amusing that rat can consider one or two quotes by miss rand about homosexuality, as damning of it, but completely ignore her views of his evil religion catholicism and of his rotten view on abortion.

as for you anti-gay people... it's ridiculous. i mean, i don't know if homosexuality is moral (in that it can lead to an overall increase in one's happiness), since i don't know much at all about it. But, your hatred is so completely unfounded. at worst, consensual homosexual sex harms those who engage in it; at best, it's in their interest.

"So when it comes to a comrade in arms, you don't care how many angels he thinks dance upon the head of a pin. What you want to know is whether he'll pass the ammo when the battle comes."

who will he pass the ammo to? the abortion clinic bomber? the person who beats up gays?

i don't consider the rejection of human rights, and the embrace of god's commands to be a matter similar to pin dancing angels.

being an athiest is a requisite for being an objectivist. it is central to the philosophy (the rejection of faith and arbitrarily accepted knowledge). non-contradiction, which includes non-supernaturalism, is in the core of objectivism. it is not some unimportant aspect of the philosophy.

to claim to be a catholic objectivist... well, it's claiming to accept that contradictions can exist (the supernatural), and that they can't (part of objectivism) both at once.

and that's one hell of a contradiction.

religion and reason are not reconcilable. self interest and homosexuality on the other hand... I don't see why not. and "because god said so" doesn't cut it for me.

edit: er, i had the words "religion" and "abortion" in the wrong order, my first paragraph...
(Edited by eli sacks on 9/10, 10:37pm)


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Post 10

Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 6:14amSanction this postReply
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For a good overview of Citizen Rat’s philosophy, newcomers might want to see the introductory section of my SoloHQ article “667; or, How Objectivists Are Not Materialists.” In it, I state: “The ‘667’ is my bit of good-humored one-upmanship on ‘666,’ the biblical ‘number of the beast.’” (Which is the label Bill had given to a major thread he started that advocated his views.)

In retrospect I thought a better title might have been “999,” which turns the “sick, sick, sick” viewpoint on its head and cries “Nein, nein, nein!”

Sorry, Bill, I can’t resist a play on words. But I really don’t think there is any common intellectual ground. The essential thing about Objectivism is not the upholding of moral standards, but the dedication to reason—which includes all it depends upon and implies.


Post 11

Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
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"The essential thing about Objectivism is not the upholding of moral standards, but the dedication to reason ... "

Excellent point, Rodney - it is the "dedication to reason" and the "objectivity" which always AND ONLY flows from such diligent mental action.

Ed

Post 12

Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 8:22pmSanction this postReply
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Wow...that Rowlands fella sounds like a real bastard!  And why does he always censor everything!?!?!  I will not sanction that!


Post 13

Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 7:26pmSanction this postReply
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Linz, Joe, Rodney, Peter,

Since Bill Tingley is unable to post on SOLO, he has chosen to respond to you on The Autonomist Forum, which, if you choose to, you will find here:

http://usabig.com/wowbbforums/view_topic.php?id=15&forum_id=6

Regi


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