About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Friday, August 5, 2005 - 10:07pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
A question presented to me in the Objectivist Club at ISU last year has still been clawing at my leg:
"If all matter were rearranged exactly as it was in the Big Bang and another Big Bang were to occur, would we be exactly where we are today?"

To clarify, is history "determined" by internal consistency? And how can the Objective notions of internal coherence and free-will go hand-in-hand?


Post 1

Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 4:25amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I think this is a good question.  I brought this up at SOLOC4 and now the only thing anyone remembers about me is that I'm supposedly a determinist.  (Okay, they also remember that I'm hot.)

Thinking about things in terms of physics, it seems to me that the universe is just a big chain reaction, and that the way this chain reaction plays out is completely determined by its initial conditions.  If that's true, I don't think humans have free will.

Maybe Quantum Mechanics introduces some uncertainty into the situation, so that the outcome of the chain reaction may not be completely determined by its initial conditions--perhaps there could be some probability involved.  But I don't see how that would save free will.  If someone were flipping a coin again and again, and the outcomes of his coin tosses determined the decisions I end up making, I wouldn't call that free will.

A lot of Objectivists dismiss this issue by saying, "if you think you don't have free will, what's the point of talking about it," or something like that.  But I wonder if they appreciate the issue.  Steven Weinberg, who won the Nobel Prize for physics, believes that free will is an illusion.  At SOLOC4, Tibor Machan was one of the few people I talked to about it who seemed to appreciate the question and to agree that it's a tricky issue, to see how free will could be consistent with the clockwork (or Quantum Mechanically random) universe of physics.

Personally, I would guess that there's some physics subtlety that turns out to make free will possible.  Maybe somehow some complex chain reactions aren't determined by their initial conditions, and maybe somehow the way the reaction plays out doesn't come down to just random chance, or something.  I find that hard to imagine, but maybe something like that will turn out to be true.  It really seems like we have free will; so much so that I bet we do, and I bet there's some physics subtlety that I (and physics genius Steven Weinberg) am missing.  A lot of Objectivists may dismiss this interesting question, but I don't think any of them could tell me what this physics subtlety is, that Steven Weinberg and I are missing.

At this point, I couldn't say for certain that we have free will.  With our present understanding of physics, I think we have to at least consider the possibility that free will is an illusion.  But I also think we don't need to know the answer--we can just act on the assumption that we have free will, and keep wondering about it for fun.

(By the way, it worries me that "free will" may not be that well-defined; but whatever it is, we certainly don't have it if all of our actions are determined by the laws of physics before we are ever born.  So I'm going ahead and using the term for now.)


Post 2

Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 6:37amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Brandon,
"If all matter were rearranged exactly as it was in the Big Bang and another Big Bang were to occur, would we be exactly where we are today?"
It depends on whether you think the rules that govern the matter inhere in the matter or whether they are independent of and simply act upon the matter. To explain, we can at least imagine two sets of matter arranged in exactly the same way at some point in time, but their arrangement could diverge in the immediately following point in time. For a math analogy, consider the two series :

(a) 1,2,3,5,8,13.....
(b) 1,2,3,4,5,6,7....

Big Bang 1 could be like the first three numbers in series (a). Big bang 2 could be like the first three numbers in series (b). Notice how they are exactly the same up to the 3rd number in the series. Then they diverge. Why? Because the rule that governs series (a) differs from the rule that governs series (b). If you think the rules that govern matter inhere in matter, then you'll reject the possibility that Big Bang 2 could be a part of series B. It would have to be a copy of series (a).

*

What does this mean for free will? Hard to say. "free will" is sort of a mess of a concept. Often, people define it in such a way that makes it impossible to test for, impossible to measure. I think people made the concept in response to some introspection. They sure feel like they're making choices, had alterantives. But people have previously felt things that aren't there and haven't felt things that are. That is, their introspection has been faulty in the past, so maybe it is in this case as well.

Maybe you'd be interested in compatabilism, the view that attempts to reconcile determinism with free will. Read Daniel Dennett's Freedom Evolves.

Jordan







 


Post 3

Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"If all matter were rearranged exactly as it was in the Big Bang and another Big Bang were to occur, would we be exactly where we are today?"
The "If" is impossible. There must be a philosophical term for this kind of logical fallacy.

How would it be possible to determine that the conditions were identical? The observer would have had to be present at both the bangs. The first time he would observe; the second time he would be observing and comparing. The state of his neurons firing would be different in the second bang. He is part of the system so the conditions could not be the same.

Sam
(edited for typo)

(Edited by Sam Erica on 8/06, 11:11am)


Post 4

Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 10:14amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Right Sam. The answer to this question cannot ever be known by a rational agent. There can be no referent in reality that would ever give rise to the components of this question -- it is intellectual pondscum.

Ed

Post 5

Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Sam,

------------
There must be a philosophical term for this kind if logical fallacy.
------------

The fallacy-of-the-impossibility-of-having-a-referent-in-reality.

Ed

Post 6

Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 12:01pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Personally, I would guess that there's some physics subtlety that turns out to make free will possible.
Despite the number approach, there are other things that show that free-will is possible. It is a bit like the breakdown of physics and math when it comes to the beginning. We can anticipate the beginning by colliding particles to reconstruct it, but we still have no mathematical description of the beginning. The closer we come, the more uncertain our calculations, models and mathematical equations get.

The same happens when we go to the quantum plane. We there have a state of flux, which we can predict up to 70%, but what is with the rest? Can that be free-will? possible and not improbable. This is the problem of the quantum level, that we can predict things on a probability, but not determine them 100% certain. All in all, it works (simplified) like a brain that also does predict things all the time (just role a ball over a table, you will know where it bounces on the floor up to a certain proximity.

So, I believe free will is possible and not even neuro-biology or the initial situation of the universe can predict it fully.


Post 7

Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Existential fallacy

Though the whole randomness and chaos vs. destiny question is somewhat interesting, then it is arbitrary, determinism doesn't matter, our choices are the results of our desires and preferences, will is not a thing to be free or unfree. Both sides of your equation are contradictions.

Big Bang is a bad name, suggesting that it was an explosion a specific place in space, which it wasn't - rather it is space - an expanding space - like a growing soap bubble with grains of dust, or an expanding balloon with coins glued to its surface.

That everything is connected seems clear, that action causes reaction, and that an endlessly complex arrangement of actions would appear random seems clear, be it how the tree is spreading its branches, the nerve-cell its connections, voronoi foam its holes, viscous fingers its fingers etc etc. - at home, take two pieces of cardboard place a viscous fluid on one (toothpaste, paint, mayo...) press the pieces together - and drag them apart again, as straight as possible, and you will have formed a 'random' tree - this apparently random behavior will come from minor variations in the original form, multiplied and enhanced, but not just that... it would seem that on sub-planck-length we do have true random behavior adding a little detail, it's on such a small scale that we don't see it's direct randomness as such - like the snow covering the complex structure of the mountain - abstracting - the observable world covers the quantum-mechanic-mini-world of randomness by things that relate to each other according to the non-random laws of physics.

Post 8

Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 2:07pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
If the universe is mechanistic then free will is impossible. If it's not mechanistic then free will is possible. If it's mechanistic then it has to be predictable to an infinite degree.

Consider two simultaneous, non-interacting, "exactly" similar universes (admittedly, an impossibility). Suppose in both cases I'm sitting at a computer that is capable of displaying coordinates to the 10**100,000,000,000 power and I've computed the Mandelbrot set to almost that precision and I'm looking at a particularly complex formation. You have to be able answer the question, "Is it possible that the pointing device, with its innumerable atoms and subatomic particles will respond to my hand movement in precisely the same way?"  If not, then I will observe a different display in each case, showing that the universe is not mechanistic — it responds to chance and probability, but doesn't prove free will.

In order for there be free will there must be intention. How is an idea initiated? I contend that an idea is the result of random firings of some neurons in the normal course of cognition, given a particular context — problem solving, observing ... whatever. The better the quality of the individual's brain the better the idea will be.

Sam


Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 4:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This reminds me of Descartes' demon.

Whenever folks postulate the unobservable, they need to be really careful. Often times, what we have to say about that which is ultimately unobservable will be arbitrary -- and, therefore, a counterproductive use of the mind.

This was the case with Descartes, who postulated an unobservable demon trickster who supposedly made folks think that they're experiencing reality. But by the same method, one could postulate a trickster-trickster (a being who supposedly makes tricksters think that they're fooling folks).

As these 2 statements are ultimately arbitrary (they have no tie to -- or referent in -- reality), they are entirely unhelpful, epistemological pondscum. All focus on these 2 statements -- is wasted focus.

And if the skeptics wail and bemoan that simpler theories -- or imaginations -- undercut more complex ones (ala Ockham), then they've just undercut themselves -- because a theory which postulates no imagined beings, is the simplest (simpler than those postulating arbitrary imaginations).

Rand's epistemological warning was profound (and is relevant here). Whenever moving up, or across, inside a body of knowledge (so that we need new concepts) we have to validate each new concept by asking the question:

To what, in reality does that concept refer?

Descartes, Hume, and Kant -- just didn't do this.

Ed


Post 10

Monday, August 8, 2005 - 8:49amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Sam

 

>If it's mechanistic then it has to be predictable to an infinite degree.

 

No determinist would accept this requisite; no determinist accepts that reality is predictable to an infinite degree.

 

And to Ed and Sam,

 

The fallacy I suspect you’re looking for is perhaps just your rejection of counterfactual or hypothetical reasoning.

 

Rand’s invulnerable robot is an example of hypothetical reasoning. I’d say such a thing were impossible, unobservable, and helpful to posit only because it helps isolate important attributes which, in reality, are usually awfully difficult if not impossible to isolate.

 

As for counterfactuals, well, they are by their very nature impossible. Consider, “if the other team hadn’t scored that last point, we’d have one the game.” Or “If Killer hadn’t shot Victim, Victim wouldn’t have died.” Considering the impossible – e.g., the other team not scoring or the killer not shooting – is helpful. Accordingly, I can appreciate Branden’s question.

 

Ed,

 

Descartes’ demon is more to demonstrate what we shouldn’t reject rather than what we should accept. That is, just because we lack proof of the demon doesn’t mean we should reject it as a logically possibility. As a practical possibility, however, we should reject the demon – for one, because like you and Ockham suggest, it needlessly complicates matters – and for another, like you and Rand suggest, nothing in reality gives rise to the demon.

 

Jordan


Post 11

Monday, August 8, 2005 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan:

"No determinist would accept this requisite; no determinist accepts that reality is predictable to an infinite degree."
 
Then what does the determinist think that prevents reality from being predictable to an infinite degree?

Sam




Post 12

Monday, August 8, 2005 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Sam,

Determinists reject that reality is predictable to an infinite degree because they accept that we're non-omniscient. What they reject is existential freedom in the unfolding of events. The reject that the future is open.

Jordan


Post 13

Monday, August 8, 2005 - 9:13pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan:

Being a determinist doesn't depend on being able to verify everything. It depends on believing that the universe can unfold in exactly one way, given the initial conditions.

Sam


Post 14

Monday, August 8, 2005 - 10:06pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan writes:
>Determinists...accept that we're non-omniscient

Sam writes:
>Being a determinist doesn't depend on being able to verify everything

Aren't you both agreeing here? Anyway, there's a rub:

Sam
>Then what does the determinist think that prevents reality from being predictable to an infinite degree?

Answer: nothing. Laplace, the grandaddy of strict determinism, considered it was if some infinite intelligence could gather all the facts. Later Hume makes this same point: just because *we* as humans don't have the power to make infinitely accurate predictions, doesn't mean that it can't be done *in principle*.

Of course, we are *all* determinists to some degree. The best way I think to consider the issue is Popper's "clocks and clouds" - a scale with 1 being total determinism - the perfect clock - and 0 being total indeterminism, the perfect cloud.

We humans and animals are in-between somewhere.

- Daniel



Post 15

Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 2:29amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Correction: I said, "Being a determinist doesn't depend on being able to verify everything." I meant anything.

LaPlace's infinite intelligence postulation is an impossibility — another example of the impossible 'If'. The infinite intelligence must have physical form and in order to perceive and evaluate the state of every atom and subatomic particle in the universe it must have many times that number of atoms and subatomic particles in itself. Then the argument becomes self-referential and expanding because there would have to be another larger intelligence in the hierarchy.

Sam


Post 16

Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 2:50amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Sam
>LaPlace's infinite intelligence postulation is an impossibility

It's not necessary, as Jordan says (or Hume) to postulate Laplace's demon to be a determinist.

>Being a determinist doesn't depend on being able to verify anything

Being a determinist means never having to say you are sorry!

- Daniel
(Edited by Daniel Barnes
on 8/09, 2:51am)


Post 17

Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 3:59amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Being a determinist means never having to say you are sorry!

I disagree, but I guess free willers never consider a determinist's apology to be a true apology.


Post 18

Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Sam,

>Being a determinist doesn't depend on being able to verify everything. It depends on believing that the universe can unfold in exactly one way, given the initial conditions.

I agree with this. Believing the world unfolds in exactly one way and believing that way is infinitely predictable – these are two very different premises. Determinists go for the former. And all the ones I know of reject the latter.

 

Jordan


Post 19

Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The question isn't what 'it takes' to be a determinist any more than what 'it takes' to be a Christian. There are various degrees of adherence to a belief and if they say they are a determinist or a Christian then I take them at their word. I'm interested in what they believe and whether it can be demonstrated that their belief is true or not.

Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.