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Post 0

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 4:58amSanction this postReply
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My favorite Objectivist forum is splitting up and since Linz and Joe have made it quite clear that MSK (and me by association) are no longer welcome in their respective clubs, I am wondering what else is out there.   I have not found an online community out there that is not either anti-Solo, anti-Branden, anti-MSK or too Randroid for my tastes.  Too many haters in Objectivism to say the least. 

I believe that Objectivism is a positive philosophy for living so I have bought a domain at www.objectivistliving.com which will eventually be our new home.  I just did this today so Michael doesn't know about it, although I had mentioned to him that I thought he should start a blog.  I am not a programmer so don't expect an earth-shattering forum.  I just want to have a new Objectivist home where I feel I belong.  I'm kinda selfish that way.

btw - blaming MSK for the breakup of Solo is complete and utter horseshit.  It is like blaming Yoko for breaking up the Beatles or another woman breaking up a marriage.  The reason people part ways is internal, not external.  People grow in different directions before such things can happen.  Linz and Joe no longer shared the same vision for the site.  They just did not publicly wish to air their differences and Michael is a handy excuse. A strawman transformed into scapegoat.  I, for one, don't buy it.

Kat
katdaddy@comcast.net



** ok - one last purr alert **

I love you, Michael Stuart Kelly, and I will always be your kitten.   purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr





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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 5:18amSanction this postReply
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I unfortunately don't know of one that has such a 'sense of life' - ie. not afraid of being entertaining - but a couple possibilities for discussion:

www.wethethinking.com - Nathan Hawking's site. a bit broader than strict Objectivism; it appears good if you're in the mood for in-depth philosophical discussions

www.4aynrandfans.com - someone recently highly recommended this to me. I've skimmed the article list and it looks promising for volume and bredth of Objectivist discussion. I've been warned it may be ARI and not dissent-friendly though.




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Post 2

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 7:23amSanction this postReply
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Kat,

Shouldn't you and MSK ask Linz and or Joe directly before drawing any conclusions. One of the problems with Objectivists is that they are too quick to read between the lines.

That probably explains why so many of them are grumpy. All that reading between the lines makes 'em cross eyed and their heads hurt because of it.

Just a thought... 




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Post 3

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
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Clearly, assigning much causal weight to MSK's articles and posts vis-a-vis the morphing of SOLO is absurd. If Joe and Linz thought his influence were too destructive, they could easily have banned him from SOLO, rather than going to all the trouble to create two new sites. I can't imagine the poster was serious about believing MSK was any sort of cause -- he was expressing a view about MSK's contributions, to be sure. But really... this is all too silly.

And I would remind several on this forum who seem to be expressing the view that they have been cast adrift, that two new sites are being created. We don't know what form they will take, but don't have long to wait to find out. How about a little optimism, folks?




Post 4

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 9:47amSanction this postReply
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Kat, best of luck with all things in the future.

MSK is a bull in a china shop. His intentions are of the highest order. I question and denounce his premises on a regular basis but he is a genuine person and I like him.

Quite a few SOLO members are outright bad people. MSK is not one of them. He has a good heart (worn on his sleeve, usually). He leads with his emotions and I expect that gets him into some bad spots.  

Joe R leads with his mind and is, online at least, hard to get a read on emotionally. In any event, it's easy to see where Joe R. and MSK would clash.

It is what it is. Onwards we go...




Post 5

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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My favorite Objectivist forum is splitting up and since Linz and Joe have made it quite clear that MSK (and me by association) are no longer welcome in their respective clubs, I am wondering what else is out there.
 The Atlasphere was supposed to launch a forum back in August but it hasn't happened yet...




Post 6

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 12:09pmSanction this postReply
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Marvin,
That is still in progress. If you wish to express your desire to see it soon I encourage you to send a note to Joshua Zader.
Jeff




Post 7

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 1:16pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Jeff. I just sent them a note asking about their plans for a forum right before I saw your post. I hope it works out. It's already a good site and I've made a few great friends out here in SF thanks to The Atlasphere.



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Post 8

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 1:36pmSanction this postReply
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Kitten,

You are such a dear, dear, marvelous miracle in my life, but have no fear, sweetie.

Hardly anybody on SoloHQ thinks that I am the cause of the split between Linz and Joe. The only one apparently who does is that little intellectual cockroach who sporadically pops up to yap about the evils of this person or that, including even Chris Sciabarra. His standard is that the person has to be in the limelight somehow so he can try to steal some of the light for himself. Pure second-hander.

Some people bonked him because I stepped hard on their toes when they tried to insult you or me. They prefer those who turn the other cheek and I don't - especially not about you (despite a controversial article or two). Some people just don't like me. So boo-hoo, anyway. I'm losing sleep over it...

I will not analyze the split between Joe and Linz here. It ain't me - the causes are other and, I suspect, deeper than they seem on the surface. I have communicated with both off line and, despite our differences, neither has asked me to refrain from contributing to the new sites. On the contrary, both have stated that there is ready room for my contributions.

(Joe does not like my style of literature, so don't expect to see any of my articles over there. But then again, he does not like the literature of anyone who writes the way I do and has told me so, thus I don't expect to see too many articles by several others, either - one other than myself was even mentioned. We disagree strongly on how Objectivism ties in with this genre, but I do not want to discuss this here. He is certainly entitled to his opinions and, as owner, is completely justified in choosing the guidelines for the content he wishes to print.)

For the record, I admire both of them (including Jeff). They are productive achievers - and productive achievers will always get my respect and admiration regardless of how they view my own accomplishments.

I want to make public what I have communicated in private to them, so here is as good a place as any.

I have not competed for any position on Solo, but I have contributed a high amount of posts. The reason for this is that I read much Rand (and Branden) before I went to Brazil.
 
I stayed there 32 years without anybody to talk to about her. The ideas just kept fermenting in me. On coming back here, I came across this site where I met many intelligent people talking the same language - and it was like an oasis in the desert. Thirty-two years is a long time. I guess I went overboard, but I won't apologize. I thoroughly enjoyed it while it lasted.
 
It wasn't anything malicious. It was simply a starved appetite showing up at a feast. (Don't forget that I am a reformed alcoholic and drug addict!  //;-)
 
Linz, Joe and Jeff are the ones I have to thank for being able to satisfy that appetite so completely - and for being able to meet you, Kitten, thus realize the dream of a lifetime - and for being able to meet and befriend so many heavies in the Objectivist world and even wonderful not-so-heavies who I suspect are now lifetime friends. All of this has vastly enriched my life.
 
So I thank all three of them deeply from the bottom of my heart. My future contributions to their sites most likely will not be very voluminous since, as you well know, I have some other major literary projects now and many wonderful offline friends to attend to.

As to what most people really think of me, Kitten, they have been very clear about that in many forms. So let your dissent be against an intellectual cockroach and the select few who do not like me (or us - or even achievements like SoloHQ).

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 11/30, 1:41pm)




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Post 9

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 2:10pmSanction this postReply
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It's disappointing to see certain feuds being eked out in the dying hours of SOLOHQ. I would have thought either dignified silence or some hatchet-burying might be in order, not as moral equivalence but as a sign of respect for the good faith of one's adversaries. At the very least, I would ask folk to wait to see what Joe & I respectively have on offer before leaping off in high dudgeon or engaging in finger-pointing & recrimination.

Linz



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Post 10

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 4:15pmSanction this postReply
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You said it, Lindsay!

God stricken the crows, the stench of paranoia is really starting to stink-up the place.

RIP SOLO. Long live SOLO!



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Post 11

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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Linz,

I have no problem with that request and it will be respected. But could you at least see if the peanut gallery will do the same?

Michael




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Post 12

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 4:40pmSanction this postReply
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That sure is a back-handed way of respecting my wishes, Michael. LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL!!! (ooops!)



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Post 13

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
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OK, I will rephrase it.

I have no problem with that request and it will be respected by me to the extent that it is respected by others.

Same standards for everybody. Is that OK?

(For some reason I remember always doing that...)

Michael






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Post 14

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 5:44pmSanction this postReply
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I will visit any site where Barbara, James K, and Hong (to name three) express themselves regularly again*....

(Assuming it is not overrun by termites, chaff, and motormouths who instantly drown out whatever they are saying... contrary to popular opinion, having to repeatedly swim past nonsense in unmoderated sites its tiring, and does drive good people away.)

That is not to say I have no interest in what Joe and Linz are doing...I'm sure it will have value. It is just that I personally find what BJK have had to say over time was worth a thousand of what a random sample of other posters have to say --- Joe and Linz and a handful of others not included.

Phil

*Obviously, due to personal differences this is not likely to happen in any operation run by Joe or Linz.... Objectivists never forget or forgive a slight, a grudge, a falling out, an insult, or an allegedly 'moral' error.



Post 15

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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> As to what most people really think of me.. [MSK]

I think well of you Michael!!

Thank you, though, for giving some context on why you have been so omnipresently, post-a-minute on this list, though!

:-)

Phil Coates



Post 16

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 5:59pmSanction this postReply
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> some hatchet-burying might be in order, not as moral equivalence but as a sign of respect for the good faith of one's adversaries. [linz]

Linz, can you see a time when you might ever be able to do that with Barbara and/or James?

[I get the impression your falling out with James is less serious since it only involves a single insult one time?]



Post 17

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 7:05pmSanction this postReply
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A few quick notes for those who've been inquiring about the Atlasphere's discussion forums....

It has been challenging to develop a plan for how to expand in new directions without sacrificing the Atlasphere's culture of goodwill for our 8,500 current members.

Countless people have written in, asking us to create discussion forums. At the same time, many people have enjoyed the general lack of bitchy animosity at the Atlasphere -- and we want to do our best to keep it that way.

So we'll be rolling out our forums very gradually, over the course of a few months.

The first forum (scheduled for launch in mid-December, coinciding with a fresh new site design) will allow our members to submit letters to the editor in response to our feature columns.

After a month or so, once we've had a chance to iron out our handling of letters to the editor, we will start allowing comments on blog entries, and then later we'll introduce traditional discussion forums on politics, current events, personal development, and other topics of likely interest to our members.

Our goal, with the gradual introduction of forums (rather than introducing them all at once) is to instill a clear sense of what types of discussion (i.e., polite, constructive, well-considered) are acceptable and what are not.

All of our forums will be moderated in some fashion, and in the beginning they will be moderated heavily.

The columns and blog discussion are likely to remain free. The other forums will likely be available only to our paid subscribers.

Since the Atlasphere is explicitly a community-building forum, intended to bring together people of like-minded values (rather than, say, advancing or enforcing particular ideological views as such) we will be taking a firm stance against the negative, judgmental tone that characterizes many Rand-related forums.

Eventually, since the Atlasphere is a for-profit service, I'd like to begin offering seminars taught by (paid) instructors in their areas of specialty.

If this plan sounds interesting to you, then I'll look forward to your participation!

And if you think you'd be interested in helping in one way or another (e.g., programming or moderating), then feel free to contact me through my site at zader.com.

Yours truly,

Joshua




Post 18

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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Phil - I see such a time, & the time is now. Please wait till you've read/heard my opening editorial on the new site. Doesn't mean I don't retain certain views of certain actions, or that I'll never express them again. You should remind yourself that the parties you mention left of their own accord notwithstanding every opportunity extended to them to stay—I didn't boot them. And bearing grudges is just not me. Hell, look at what I put up with from you!! :-)

Linz



Post 19

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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>Hell, look at what I put up with from you!!

Well, that's a point!!



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