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Post 40

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 7:52amSanction this postReply
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=====================
(Nick)In Branden’s article, he asks how determinists acquire their knowledge. He claims they commit a fallacy of self-exclusion. He states that the concept of logic is possible only to a volitional consciousness, an automatic consciousness would have no need of it. However, psychological determinists do use science to validate their conclusions. They use pragmatic experimentalism and invest in functional probability. So, it is not self-exclusive.
=====================

Just because determinists, operationally, refute themselves (saying reality is one way, while interacting with reality in a contradictory way) -- doesn't make their position any stronger.

But, of course, I was determined to say that (wasn't I?).

Ed
[And I was determined to question whether I was determined. Right? And determined to question the questioning? Right? Etc.]

Post 41

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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[And I was determined to question whether I was determined. Right? And determined to question the questioning? Right? Etc.]

Why not? There are examples of infinite series in math, why not here? Or, why not be content that there are gaps in our knowledge? Why fill them with first causes and such? Is it a matter of pride? You don't want to think of yourself as a mechanical toy? What if science leads to that conclusion? Would you reject it?

bis bald,

Nick 


 


Post 42

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:12pmSanction this postReply
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Nick, I staunchly refuse to answer your questions.

Determined.

Ed


Post 43

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
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Nick, I staunchly refuse to answer your questions.

Determined.
Okay. That's one way to evade challenges. The Bigot at the Bar does somethng like ths also.

bis bald,

Nick


Post 44

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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And if determinism is true, then the Bigot at the Bar is not morally reproachable.

Back at ya', tough guy. What else 'you got?

Ed


Post 45

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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(Bill)Roger Bissell was kind enough to refer me to a source in Aristotle's writing which was cited in Wikipedia, in which "The Philosopher" does refer to the law of identity, although he does not name it as such: "[T]he fact that a thing is itself is the single reason and the single cause to be given in answer to all such questions as why the man is man, or the musician musical', unless one were to answer 'because each thing is inseparable from itself, and its being one just meant this'; this, however, is common to all things and is a short and easy way with the question." - Metaphysics [Book VII, Ch. 17, 1041a, 15.]

 

(Nick)If there is anything on which authorities agree, it is that the Metaphysics is a very confusing book. It is ambiguous and still debated. It is not clear what Aristotle is saying in some places. However, my two authorities, J.H. Randall and W.F. O’Neill, who cites him, conclude that A is A is an Aristotelian suggestion that “it is not wise, on a pragmatic basis of encouraging effective thought and communication—to change the ground rules by shifting the meaning of terms once the game is in progress. It is, of course, up to each individual to decide whether he wants to start a new game.”

 

(Bill)Also, from Wikipedia: "The law of identity has deep impact on Aristotle's ethics as well. In order for a person to be morally praiseworthy or blameworthy for an action, he or she must be the same person before the act as during the act and after the act. Without the law of identity, Aristotle notes, there can be no responsibility for vice (see Nicomachean ethics)."

 

(Nick)This has presented problems over the years. If the cells in a person’s body are entirely replaced every seven years, is he the same person he was seven years ago? Is he still responsible for a crime he committed seven years ago, even if no cell in his body is the same as it was when he committed the crime?

 

 

 bis bald,

 

Nick


Post 46

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
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And if determinism is true, then the Bigot at the Bar is not morally reproachable.

Back at ya', tough guy. What else 'you got?

That's true, but I'd stll condemn him. I'd be conditioned to do so.

Next?

Nick


Post 47

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 8:01pmSanction this postReply
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Nick,

=============
That's true, but I'd stll condemn him. I'd be conditioned to do so.

Next?
=============

Ah so, you ARE a formidable intellectual opponent, after all.

Well, I would admit that you were better than me, but there is something about which I have not been completely forthcoming -- you see, I am NOT left-brain-hemisphere dominant (and, so far at least, I've only been battling you with the left half of my brain)!

When you say you'd be "conditioned" to condemn him for behavior he had no "choice" in -- well that just means you'd be "conditioned" to act in a contradictory manner (eg. to treat a 'circle' as if it were a 'square', etc) -- and where's the survival value in THAT?

Your argument vanishes in a puff of hot-air, when attempt is made to integrate it with the limitation of what it is that can be true of life on earth -- ie. the Evolutionary Stable Strategy limitation. You can't be right, because, if so, then we wouldn't be here right now; because contradictory behavior is not an Evolutionary Stable Strategy -- but a prescription for early demise.

On guard!

Ed


Post 48

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:52pmSanction this postReply
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Well, I would admit that you were better than me,...
Ed, that should be "Well, I would admit you were better than I,..."

I'm still looking for answers to my questions of what guides that initial choice to use reason. If two rational people working on the same problem and with the same skill and information can get different answers, and what we do when reason doesn't reach, as when there are unknown or equal consequences. We've gotten away from those initial questions.

bis bald,

Nick 


Post 49

Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:16pmSanction this postReply
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(Nick)If there is anything on which authorities agree, it is that the Metaphysics is a very confusing book. It is ambiguous and still debated. It is not clear what Aristotle is saying in some places. However, my two authorities, J.H. Randall and W.F. O’Neill, who cites him, conclude that A is A is an Aristotelian suggestion that “it is not wise, on a pragmatic basis of encouraging effective thought and communication—to change the ground rules by shifting the meaning of terms once the game is in progress. It is, of course, up to each individual to decide whether he wants to start a new game.”
I don't have a problem with this, nor does it contradict Aristotle's conception of logic as ontological. The laws of logic as laws of thought are perfectly consistent with their being laws of reality. In fact, they can't be laws of thought without also being laws of reality.

(Bill)Also, from Wikipedia: "The law of identity has deep impact on Aristotle's ethics as well. In order for a person to be morally praiseworthy or blameworthy for an action, he or she must be the same person before the act as during the act and after the act. Without the law of identity, Aristotle notes, there can be no responsibility for vice (see Nicomachean ethics)."
(Nick)This has presented problems over the years. If the cells in a person’s body are entirely replaced every seven years, is he the same person he was seven years ago? Is he still responsible for a crime he committed seven years ago, even if no cell in his body is the same as it was when he committed the crime?
Yes he is, for his identity entails a certain mental and psychological continuity. Moreover, if we cannot say that he is, in some sense, the same person, then we cannot say that he (the same person) has undergone a process of change. As I indicated in my previous post, in order for something to change, something must change. If there is no identity, then there could be no change.

You didn't bother to answer this argument, except to say the following:
Actually, Zeno had an argument against motion that can also be used against change. He said, if something is to change, it must change from what it is to what it is not. However, a thing can never change from what it is and can never be what it is not. Therefore, it can’t change. How do you refute that?
By pointing out that Zeno equivocates on two different senses of negation. The thing will not be what it is in one respect, but will in another. It must be the same in this latter respect; otherwise, "it" could not have changed.

- Bill

Post 50

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 4:58amSanction this postReply
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Nick, I think that Rand wrote a review of J.H. Randall's book, and you can find it in The Voice of Reason. She criticizes alot of what he wrote (I just let a friend borrow the book, so I can't comment on specifics, but you might want to check it out if you haven't read it).

Post 51

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan, I've got it (VOR, caps for italics) ...

p 6
=================
There is only one fundamental issue in philosophy: the cognitive efficacy of man's mind. The conflict of Aristotle versus Plato is the conflict of reason versus mysticism.
=================

p 7
=================
Aristotle was the first man who integrated the facts of identity and change, thus solving the ancient dichotomy.
=================

=================
It took several centuries of misrepresenting Aristotle to turn him into a straw man, to declare the straw man invalidated, and to release such a torrent of irrationality that it is now sweeping philosophy away and carrying us back past the pre-Socratics, past Western civilization, into the prehistorical swamps of the Orient, via Existentialism and Zen Buddhism.
=================

=================
Let me hasten to state that the above remarks are mine, not Professor Randall's. He does not condemn modern philosophy as it deserves--he seems to share some of its errors. But the theme of his book is the crucial relevance and importance of Aristotle to the philosophical problems of our age.
=================

p 11
=================
The best way to describe it is to say that Aristotle's philosophy is "BIOCENTRIC." This is the source of Aristotle's intense concern with the study of living entities ...

... In some oddly defined manner, Professor Randall seems to share it. This, in spite of all his contradictions, seems to be his real bond to Aristotle. "Life is the end of living bodies," writes Professor Randall, "since they exist for the sake of living." ...

... And, discussing the ends and conclusions of natural processes: "Only in human life are these ends and consclusions consciously intended, only in men are purposes found. For Aristotle, even God has no purpose, only man!"
=================

=================
The blackest patch in this often illuminating book is Chapter XII, which deals with ethics and politics. ...

... It is astonishing to read the assertion: "Aristotle's ethics and politics are actually his supreme achievement." They are not, even in their original form--let alone in Professor Randall's version, which transforms them into an ethics of pragmatism. It is shocking to read the assertion that Aristotle is an advocate of the "welfare state."
=================

p 11-12
=================
Professor Randall, who stresses that knowledge must rest on empirical evidence, should take cognizance of the empirical fact that throughout history the influence of Aristotle's philosophy (particularly of his epistemology) has led in the direction of individual freedom, of man's liberation from the power of the state--that Aristotle (via John Locke) was the philosophical father of the Constitution of the United States and thus of CAPITALISM--that it is Plato and Hegel, not Aristotle, who have been the philosophical ancestors of all totalitarian and welfare states, whether Bismarck's, Lenin's, or Hitler's.
=================

p 12 [ending on a good note]
=================
"Clearly," writes Professor Randall, "Aristotle did not say everything; though without what he first said, all words would be meaningless, and when it is forgotten they usually are."
=================

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 7/14, 9:44am)


Post 52

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
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I think this is interesting, Ed. Can you provide a link to the entire review?

bis bald,

Nick


Post 53

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
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Nick, I got those quotes physically (I own the book; The Voice of Reason).

Try to google it, or something.

Ed

Post 54

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 4:41pmSanction this postReply
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I can find the VOR site but not the specific review about which we are talking. I do have quotes by Randall and O'Neill which support my claims.

I notice that in your quotes, Rand is still equating Existentialism with Zen Buddhism. Do you think she is demonstrating accurate knowledge about philosophy when she does this?

I'm still looking for answers to my questions of what guides that initial choice to use reason. If two rational people working on the same problem and with the same skill and information can get different answers, and what we do when reason doesn't reach, as when there are unknown or equal consequences. We've gotten away from those initial questions.

bis bald,

Nick




Post 55

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:42pmSanction this postReply
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Nick,

===================
I'm still looking for answers to my questions of what guides that initial choice to use reason. If two rational people working on the same problem and with the same skill and information can get different answers, and what we do when reason doesn't reach, as when there are unknown or equal consequences. We've gotten away from those initial questions.

===================

Pain (my answer) wasn't enough, Nick? Besides, 2 rational folks, working on the same problem, with the same skill and information, will get THE SAME answers (merely stating that they won't -- is arbitrary). The reason that they will get the same answers is because reality is one -- and only one -- way (ie. it is NOT 'other' ways).

And unknown or equal consequences is another arbitrary straw-man. Of course, when consequences are unknown, reason becomes impotent. Reason is the tool used when differential outcomes can be known. Merely stating that some outcomes may be presently unknown -- does NOT invalidate reason as a tool for living on earth.

And this faulty idea of 'equal consequences' is 'equally' arbitrary. Give me one damn example of an 'equal consequence' Nick. You can't, can you?

That's what I thought.

Ed

Post 56

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 11:14pmSanction this postReply
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(Ed)Pain (my answer) wasn't enough, Nick?

(Nick)Dogs respond to pain, but we don't say they make rational choices. 

(Ed)Besides, 2 rational folks, working on the same problem, with the same skill and information, will get THE SAME answers (merely stating that they won't -- is arbitrary). The reason that they will get the same answers is because reality is one -- and only one -- way (ie. it is NOT 'other' ways).

(Nick)Good. I never said they didn't. Someone else said that because two different people are not peas in a pod, they would get different answers. If you disagree with that, so do I.

(Ed)And unknown or equal consequences is another arbitrary straw-man. Of course, when consequences are unknown, reason becomes impotent. Reason is the tool used when differential outcomes can be known. Merely stating that some outcomes may be presently unknown -- does NOT invalidate reason as a tool for living on earth.

And this faulty idea of 'equal consequences' is 'equally' arbitrary. Give me one damn example of an 'equal consequence' Nick. You can't, can you?

That's what I thought.

(Nick)There are two equally attractive women available for you to approach for an invitation to dance, how does reason help you choose? You are up to your neck in $hit and somone is dumping a bucket of snot on your head. Do you duck? How does reason help you with that decision. You are in the middle of an open feld with no guide posts. You can pick a direction and forge a path or stand still. How does reason help you make your decision?

I have cited these examples before in this thread. Either you are reading selectively or trying to recreate reality. Which is it?

bis bald,

Nick 



Post 57

Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 12:01amSanction this postReply
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Nick,

================
(Ed)Pain (my answer) wasn't enough, Nick?

(Nick)Dogs respond to pain, but we don't say they make rational choices.
================

Nick, it seems that you -- like Michael Moore -- are a professional at trading on ambiguity. You take a nonessential, merely state (or assume) it as one -- and think that you've actually made a rational point.

In the example above, you conveniently ignore mental differences between dogs and humans. Yes, the question was about humans -- you know, Nick, that animal which can reason? Here's your reasoning in syllogistic form (so that we can see it's error) ...

My argument ...

Animals capable of reasoning can -- with its use -- decrease the pain in their lives (and increase the joy).
Pain is universally avoided (because it hurts).
========================
Therefore, humans (an animal capable of reasoning, and pain) initially choose to use reason (because of the inevitable pain of failing to choose thusly).


And your attempted rebuttal ...

Dogs respond to pain.
Dogs aren't capable of rationality.
========================
Therefore, humans (animals capable of rationality) don't choose rationality to escape pain, because dogs -- who aren't capable of rationality -- also seek to escape pain.


Do you see the fallacy, Nick? Just let me know if you don't -- and I'll cordially point it out to you.

Ed

Post 58

Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 10:00amSanction this postReply
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But you are sayng, arbitrarily, that humans can reason and dogs can't. You haven't proven that. You haven't explained it. I think it can be done and have done it in a few of my posts, which you ignore. 

You haven't really answered my question of what guides that initial choce to use reason except to say humans reason and dogs don't.

bis bald,

Nick 


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Post 59

Monday, July 17, 2006 - 8:58amSanction this postReply
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Nick,

=================
But you are sayng, arbitrarily, that humans can reason and dogs can't. You haven't proven that. You haven't explained it.
=================

Nick, the fact that dogs can't reason is not arbitrary. Something is arbitrary when there's no evidence to support it. The lack of supporting evidence is the essential characteristic to what it is that is arbitrary. And every recorded instance of dog behavior points to one conclusion: they can't reason.

Just watch America's Funniest Videos, for Christ-sakes. You will see a dog barking at itself in the mirror. The dog then dashes behind the mirror to confront the 'other' dog. When no dog is found, the dog calmly walks out in front of the mirror (perhaps to go lay down) and lo' and behold sees the other dog again. The dog then proceeds to repeat the same behavior, and the cycle repeats at least half a dozen times.

It makes for great comedy, Nick, but it's prima facie evidence AGAINST "dog-reasoning." In short, the burden of evidence is squarely on YOUR shoulders -- etiher provide some evidence of dog-reasoning; or simply shut up about it (ie. you are the one being arbitrary here).

Ed


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