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Post 20

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
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I would rather respond to considered responses to my questions. If you continue to throw flames at me, I will stop responding to you.

bis bald,

Nick


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Post 21

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 4:28pmSanction this postReply
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What I've posted were not flames. There were insults, to which I apologize, but often I'm tired and have little resolve to control my anger in the face of utter ignorance mixed with arrogance such as yours.

If you want to cease my flaming then do two things for me.

1) Set up your terms exactly and do not change them. No more shifting sands of definition. I don't play that game, otherwise I can be on Paltalk right now debating a muslim/christian fundie apologist that does the same thing.

2) Use those said terms to construct a proposition with exact clauses and contigencies, then I might take you more seriously.

-- Bridget

Post 22

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 9:20pmSanction this postReply
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1) Set up your terms exactly and do not change them. No more shifting sands of definition. I don't play that game, otherwise I can be on Paltalk right now debating a muslim/christian fundie apologist that does the same thing.

2) Use those said terms to construct a proposition with exact clauses and contigencies, then I might take you more seriously.


If you perceive that I am shifting terms or not setting them up properly, simply point this out and show me where. There is no need for insults or bantering.

bis bald,

Nick


Post 23

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:30pmSanction this postReply
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As I said before, 'existence' is something defined 'only' ostensibly.

Get it (or not)?

Ed

Post 24

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 4:54pmSanction this postReply
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When one describes existence as something "objective," external to consciousness and not affected by it. One identifes two realities, objective reality and consciousness. Do you agree with this?

bis bald,

Nick

(Edited by Mr. Nicholas Neal Otani on 7/14, 4:56pm)


Post 25

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:12pmSanction this postReply
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Nick, no.

There is one -- and only one -- reality (and consciousness is found inside the one reality). Now, there are -- because consciousness exists -- 3 'kinds' of existences: subjective (toothaches, personal dreams, etc), objective (animals, vegetables, minerals, etc), and intentional (concepts).

These 3 ways to exist (within one reality) subsume all that is (and ever will be). Consciousness is a part of reality now (though it may not have 'always' been part of that which is).

Ed

Post 26

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 11:49pmSanction this postReply
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So, Ed, you seem also to disagree with the following:

 

Perhaps the most in-depth discussion of philosophy of mind by a prominent Objectivist philosopher is found in Harry Binswanger's 1998 three-tape course The Metaphysics of Consciousness (Binswanger 1998). In it, he says:

 

Conscious experience is correlated with and does require a brain process, but there are still two irreducibly different things: the state of awareness and the brain process. Yes, man does have a mind and a body, but neither can be reduced to the other... Consciousness exists and matter exists. Each is what it is and neither is a form of the other.

 

In a question-answer period afterwards, he says:

 

Dualism is a dangerous term because of its being used for a strawman. But if you mean: Do we believe there are really two existents? Yes! The mind exists and the brain exists—and neither is the other.

 

Later he says:

 

So, yes, I'm a dualist. Or as Leonard [Peikoff] says in OPAR, because the term dualism is not one we have to fight to save and it's so associated with Descartes, the proper word for it is: Objectivism, not dualism.

 

We have our own distinct view here. But if you had to put it in the historical classification, yeah, we're not monists. We believe that both consciousness and matter exist and neither is reducible to the other.

 

Binswanger, Harry. 1998. The Metaphysics of Consciousness. Gaylordsville, CT: Second

 

bis bald,

 

Nick



Post 27

Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 11:10pmSanction this postReply
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Nick, you said ...

=================
So, Ed, you seem also to disagree with the following: ...

... Do we believe there are really two existents? Yes! The mind exists and the brain exists—and neither is the other.
=================

... but what I said is not in disagreement ...

=================
Now, there are -- because consciousness exists -- 3 'kinds' of existences ... These 3 ways to exist (within one reality) ...
=================

Binswanger (and Peikoff) say that there's more than one kind of existent within reality -- ie. that monism is an unjustifiable philosophical position -- and I agree.

Now Nick, this does not mean that everyone calling themselves Objectivist agrees with me (and Binswanger, and Peikoff). Perhaps a good 10% (or more!) of the folks who call themselves Objectivist actually do try to argue for monism. I believe that Diana Hsieh is one of these wily characters.

But I'm not.

Ed



Post 28

Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 11:07amSanction this postReply
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Now, there are -- because consciousness exists -- 3 'kinds' of existences ... These 3 ways to exist (within one reality) ...

But you dsagree with the Objectivists who say there are only two existents, consciousness and matter.

Are you three sides like the three sides of the same coin?

bis bald,

Nick


Post 29

Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 4:05pmSanction this postReply
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Nick,

=================
But you dsagree with the Objectivists who say there are only two existents, consciousness and matter.

Are you three sides like the three sides of the same coin?
=================

Nick, I'm sure if I could capture the attention of Harry and Leonard for a brief half-hour's time -- that they would be rationally persuaded to adopt my notion of a 3-kinded reality. In other words, they wouldn't disagree with me -- if given the chance to.

Ed
[and as to your question, yes, sort of -- I am the '3rd Side' of the coin; the one bringing it into the full reality of 3-dimensional space (I am called 'the One' -- in certain circles)]

;-)

Post 30

Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:23pmSanction this postReply
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What do you think of Hegel's triadic, the thesis anti-thesis synthesis?

Rand and her people would hate it.

bis bald,

Nick


Post 31

Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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Nick,

Remember, I am "one" of Rand's "people." So I hate Hegel (because it's properly moral to hate him).

'Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis' is a cool rationalization though -- even if it doesn't accurately describe reality. In a sense, Hegel was the grandfather of Kuhn (though both are wrong).

Ed

Post 32

Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:45amSanction this postReply
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I don't defend Hegel, but why do you say he is wrong, other than that Rand doesn't like him? What, in your understanding, is wrong with his systematic way of looking at things?

bis bald,

Nick


Post 33

Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:53pmSanction this postReply
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Nick, on Hegel ...

===================
What, in your understanding, is wrong with his systematic way of looking at things?
===================

Hegel was an Idealist (ie. an anti-materialist) who taught that what was really real -- wasn't tangible. He opened the door for statism wider than any other philosopher did.

He is, ultimately, most responsible for the untimely deaths of more than 100 million lives in the 20th Century (from the standpoint of man's health on earth -- Hegel is worse than any cancer is).

Ed
[it is right to hate Hegel]



Post 34

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 6:54amSanction this postReply
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It wasn't just that he was an Idealist. His triadic subsumed individuals as cogs in the larger machine of reality. Marx was a materalist but kept this same dialectic, and his influence covered most of the globe. Hegel and Marx are evil because they subjugate humans to a larger whole, reality or society.

bis bald,

Nick


Post 35

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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Agreed.

And thanks for the refinement.

Ed


Post 36

Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 4:53pmSanction this postReply
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     Anyone hear of "Plato's Beard"?

LLAP
J:D


Post 37

Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 10:54pmSanction this postReply
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"Nonbeing must in some sense be, otherwise what is it that there is not? This tangled doctrine might be nicknamed Plato's beard; historically it has proved tough, frequently dulling the edge of Occam's razor.... I have dwelt at length on the inconvenience of putting up with it. It is time to think about taking steps."
-- Willard Van Orman Quine, 1948, "On What There Is," reprinted in From a Logical Point of View, Harvard University Press, 1980


Post 38

Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 9:49pmSanction this postReply
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Nicholas:

     LOL. Well quoted.

     I take that as a "Yes."

     Anyone interested in this epistemological conundrum may find a (for it's location) humorous analysis on the very idea of the meaning (and problem thereof) of attempting to refer to...'nothing'...in The Encyclopedia of Philosophy (8-vols). A whole column plus devoted to the subject, even. The subject's easy to find via the title word; as to whether one finds anything worth calling 'some'thing worth thinking about re the subject, I'll leave you to judge.

     I thought the subject (Quine's 'Plato's Beard') worth referring to, and considering as well, given this thread's apparent main thrust of, well, making something out of nothing.  :D

LLAP
J:D


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