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Post 40

Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 8:30pmSanction this postReply
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G. Dubya wrote,
1. Necessarily, if a person is a batchelor [sic], that person is single.
2. Leibniz was a batchelor.
Therefore:
3. Leibniz was single.

But not, 3': Leibniz was necessarily single.

Similarly:

1. Necessarily, if God foreknows x, x will occur.
2. God foreknows x.
Therefore:
3. x will occur.

But not, 3': x will necessarily occur.
This is not a valid comparison. One can say that Leibniz was not necessarily single, because he could have gotten married. But if God foreknows x, then x will necessarily occur, because it is impossible for God to foreknow something that could turn out otherwise.

- Bill


Post 41

Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 8:56pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote: 
1. Necessarily, if a person is a batchelor [sic], that person is single.
2. Leibniz was a batchelor.
Therefore:
3. Leibniz was single.

But not, 3': Leibniz was necessarily single.

Similarly:

1. Necessarily, if God foreknows x, x will occur.
2. God foreknows x.
Therefore:
3. x will occur.

But not, 3': x will necessarily occur.

Dan Quayle responded: 
This is not a valid comparison. One can say that Leibniz was not necessarily single, because he could have gotten married. But if God foreknows x, then x will necessarily occur, because it is impossible for God to foreknow something that could turn out otherwise.


Though you've succeeded in pointing out my spelling error, you've failed to notice an elementary rule of logic:  that the necessity of the consequent does not imply the consequent's absolute necessity.  My intention for giving the Leibniz-argument was simply to make a comparison.  It was not meant to support the applied logic, but rather to provide another example of it. 

-GWL 

P.S. When you say "But if God foreknows x, then x will necessarily occur, because it is impossible for God to foreknow something that could turn out otherwise", you simply presuppose what you're trying to prove, viz. that God's foreknowledge of x implies that x necessarily happen.  That's assertion, not argument.  Please try again. 

(Edited by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz on 3/25, 9:30pm)


Post 42

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 3:34pmSanction this postReply
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On a side note, how people choose to act is their own business anyways.
If this is the case, then we ought to: 
1.  Legalize child pornography
2.  Legalize suicide.
3.  Legalize drunk driving.
...and more.
GWL complains people are having more children out of wedlock than before, can I proof of that prior to 1940?
I've found data, but not from the U.S.: 
"Historically the rate of illegitimacy within Britain and Europe has varied enormously. Evidence based on parish registers, collected by the Cambridge Group, reveal circular trends in England in the level of illegitimacy over time. Such that the illegitimacy ratio (i.e. the proportion of births out of wedlock) fell from 4.4% in the 1540 to a low of 1.0% in the mid-seventeenth century rising to 6.0% in the mid nineteenth century (p. 14). In the 20th century the illegitimacy rate has risen from 4.0% (one in every 20 births) to over 30% (one in every three births) today (p 18)."
-web.staffs.ac.uk/schools/humanities_and_soc_sciences/census/illegit.htm

What I see here is a really just a complaint against people doing what have done in the past, GWL. People weren't chaste back in the "good old days." They were just more discrete about it.
Unlikely. 
Today, it's almost considered perfectly normal to have affairs, granted I find them problematic as well in that you are breaking a promise that is just as good as breaking a contract with a business partner. But that in itself is not an issue that can be magically resolved by the removal of contraception, rather it must be solved by another set of methods.
The removal of contraception alone obviously wouldn't solve it.  It would also be necessary to change the general perception of sex from an act of harmless recreation to an act of love between married couples. 
First, make marriage a PRIVATE CONTRACT AGAIN. Yes, GWL, you, The Church, and The State can do one thing: BUTT OUT. Let CONSENTING ADULTS set their own terms, for their own lives. If they snagged in that web of promises, good, that will make people more careful not to get married and to keep the real idiots out of it.

Given that the family is society's most important social unit, it makes sense for society to support and commend the ideal means by which a family is formed:  marriage between a man and a woman.

Second, it's not the marriage that counts, but rather the pocket book of the parents that count. Most studies I've read point out that no matter if the child is born out of wedlock or not, if the parents are poor as dirt, their kids will tend to be poor as well. In this case, poverty is also linked to bad habits, drug use, unprotected sex, and general laziness [of thought and action]. Also, smarter parents tend to have successful kids too, and they too tend to be economically well off.
I think it's a mistake to judge the goodness of a person based on his or her income. 
 
Third, if you want to change behavior you have to promote a positive behavior to replace it.
Right. 


Post 43

Monday, April 2, 2007 - 11:15amSanction this postReply
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GWL wrote,
When you say "But if God foreknows x, then x will necessarily occur, because it is impossible for God to foreknow something that could turn out otherwise", you simply presuppose what you're trying to prove, viz. that God's foreknowledge of x implies that x necessarily happen. That's assertion, not argument. Please try again.
Well, if x doesn't happen, then God didn't know it would. Therefore, if he knows it will happen, then it must happen. Are you honestly disputing this?

- Bill

Post 44

Monday, April 2, 2007 - 11:42amSanction this postReply
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What do you mean by "it must happen"?  All the logical analysis tells us is that it will happen. 

Let us imagine that there is an omega being who exists at the end of the universe, and has ex posteriori knowledge of everything that has happened in the universe.  Now, what he presently knows has happened must necessarily have happened, given the necessity of the past.  However, his knowledge has not at all effected what has happened.  His knowledge comes from what has happened. 

If God is omniscient and eternal, when we say that God foreknows x, what we really mean is that God knows x eternally.  Therefore, atemporally speaking, it becomes an open question as to the relationship between God's knowledge and the temporal action.  God's knowledge could very well arise from the event being eternally present to him.

As St. Thomas Aquinas says (Summa Contra Gentiles):
"[W]e may gather some inkling of how God has had an infallible knowledge of all contingent events from eternity, and yet they cease not to be contingent. For contingency is not inconsistent with certain and assured knowledge except so far as the contingent event lies in the future, not as it is present. While the event is in the future, it may not be; and thus the view of him who reckons that it still be may be mistaken: but once it is present, for that time it cannot but be. Any view therefore formed upon a contingent event inasmuch as it is present may be a certitude. But the intuition of the divine mind rests from eternity upon each and every [one] of the events that happen in the course of time, viewing each as a thing present. There is nothing therefore to hinder God from having from eternity an infallible knowledge of contingent events."   


Post 45

Monday, April 2, 2007 - 8:39pmSanction this postReply
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If God is omniscient and eternal, when we say that God foreknows x, what we really mean is that God knows x eternally. Therefore, atemporally speaking, it becomes an open question as to the relationship between God's knowledge and the temporal action. God's knowledge could very well arise from the event being eternally present to him.
Look, GW, either God foreknows x or he doesn't. So, which is it? If the former, then my criticism applies; if the latter, then he doesn't "foreknow" x, in which case, he doesn't know x before it happens. It's either one or the other; you can't have it both ways.
God's knowledge could very well arise from the event being eternally present to him.
What does this mean -- "eternally present"? The event isn't eternal, so how could it be eternally present, unless by "eternally present to him," you simply mean that God's knowledge of it is eternal. But in that case, God knows that it will happen before it does, in which case, he does have foreknowledge of it, and the previous objection still applies.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 4/02, 8:52pm)


Post 46

Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - 4:48amSanction this postReply
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Look, GW, either God foreknows x or he doesn't. So, which is it? If the former, then my criticism applies; if the latter, then he doesn't "foreknow" x, in which case, he doesn't know x before it happens. It's either one or the other; you can't have it both ways.
The whole point is that God can know x before x happens by 'perceiving' x happen as present.  It is similar to the concept of retroactive causation.  God foreknows x by virtue of observing x occur in the present.   
What does this mean -- "eternally present"? The event isn't eternal, so how could it be eternally present, unless by "eternally present to him," you simply mean that God's knowledge of it is eternal. But in that case, God knows that it will happen before it does, in which case, he does have foreknowledge of it, and the previous objection still applies.

The previous objection never applied in the first place, as it consisted of you merely asserting that God's foreknowledge of events implied their absolute necessity.

(Edited by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz on 4/03, 4:51am)


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