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Friday, April 13, 2007 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
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Why assume that consciousness, rationality or knowledge must have a super-natural origin in the form of a non-material consciousness...
I'd like to reflect further on this quote from William Dwyer, which was given in another thread. 

Though I realize that academia frowns upon supernatural explanation, I think this is mainly because they don't actually understand it. 

Most non-theistic thinkers take issue with a form of explanation called "God-of-the-Gaps."  On the God-of-the-Gaps view, God is used as an explanatory filler of scientific gaps.  If some physical fact or state of affairs is not explained, then it is said that God creates such a fact or state of affairs by direct divine action.        

This is not the way Christian theology should proceed.  Christianity has it that God is a primary cause who upholds a universal system of secondary causes, and who has the power to intervene in this system for the purpose of supplying grace through miracle. 

Thus, all positive realities are caused by God either directly or indirectly, and God knows the series (potential infinities?) of contingent causes. 

So what's the problem with a materialist universe in which non-material consciousness arises in the form of rationality or knowledge?  Hmm, I don't know?  Perhaps it's because consciousness, rationality, and knowledge are themselves--regardless of their causes--immaterial phenomena, and that immaterial phenomena is precisely what is disallowed according to a strictly materialistic conception of reality.   

Does the fact that consciousness itself is an immaterial phenomenon imply that that God has to directly intervene in order to create a conscious organism?  No.  Does it mean that consciousness must be a phenomenon of an immaterial substance separate from the human organism, like a soul?  No.   

But neither does it preclude the possibility of God's direct creation of an immaterial 'form' or 'aspect' of the human person--the soul--at the point of conception, which is what the Church teaches. 

I maintain, then, that a body-dependent mind and a body-indepedent mind are both metaphysical possibilities.  If I ever find sufficient reason to believe that our minds are body-dependent (that is, incapable of non-bodily existence), then I will believe our minds are body-dependent.  No problem.  In that case, I'll adopt a position similar to that of the philosopher Peter Van Inwagen, who believes that the soul is an immaterial property of bodies, and not a substance, though he still believes in angels and God as immaterial substances--and especially the resurrection of the body. 

So to return to the quote from a rather significant digression,
Why assume that consciousness, rationality or knowledge must have a super-natural origin in the form of a non-material consciousness...
I don't assume this.  I believe it based on reasons, just as I believe that all reality is of ultimately supernatural origin. 
(Edited by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz on 4/13, 7:48pm)

(Edited by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz on 4/13, 7:53pm)


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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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If I ever find sufficient reason to believe that our minds are body-dependent (that is, incapable of non-bodily existence)

Can you cite an example of a human mind independent of its body?


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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
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How is it, once again, that mind is "immaterial?"  How, in that respect, is "mind" more or less "material" than "process," or "life."  Just as "process" refers to a system of events aimed at a goal state, and "life" refers to a subset of "processes" which are characterized by the fact that the goal state is that of preserving the process itself, so "mind" can be physically delineated as a process of life by which the characteristics of real entities are abstracted in terms of their functional commonalities via specific processes of interaction, including sensation, perception and conception, thus enabling the life process supporting the mind to gain energy leverage.  

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Friday, April 20, 2007 - 10:51amSanction this postReply
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If I ever find sufficient reason to believe that our minds are body-dependent (that is, incapable of non-bodily existence)...
What about the fact that by damaging or manipulating the brain we damage or manipulate the mind? Drugs, brain lesions, magnetic stimulation and myriad other unfortunate events can lead to a bewildering variety of consequences for mind and conciousness. Not merely things like blindness and paralysis, which a dualist could plausibly write off as merely the loss of the input and output connections of the mind, but:
  • Personality changes (prefrontal cortex)
  • Delusions (bizarre beliefs) (various areas, for example, right somatosensory damage can cause the delusion that one has not suffered a brain injury)
  • Amnesia (hippocampus)
  • Apathy and the inability to make decisions or initiate actions (cingulate cortex)
  • Disruption of the moral sense, ability to empathise with others, emotional experience, and/or practical judgement (medial/orbital prefrontal cortex)

There are even reports of brain lesions which have turned Christians into atheists!

No doubt there are dualist responses to this argument. I'd be interested to see one.

(This is without even mentioning brain scanning studies, which I admit are less of a problem for dualists in themselves, since they show correlation rather than causation, but which provide more support for this argument.)
(Edited by Jeremy B
on 4/20, 11:58am)


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Friday, April 20, 2007 - 12:43pmSanction this postReply
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If I ever find sufficient reason to believe that our minds are body-dependent (that is, incapable of non-bodily existence)

Can you cite an example of a human mind independent of its body?



Obviously not.  Such a mind would have no means of communicating to anyone, as it would have no body with which to speak, gesture, etc. 
How is it, once again, that mind is "immaterial?"  How, in that respect, is "mind" more or less "material" than "process," or "life."  Just as "process" refers to a system of events aimed at a goal state, and "life" refers to a subset of "processes" which are characterized by the fact that the goal state is that of preserving the process itself, so "mind" can be physically delineated as a process of life by which the characteristics of real entities are abstracted in terms of their functional commonalities via specific processes of interaction, including sensation, perception and conception, thus enabling the life process supporting the mind to gain energy leverage.  



1.  Mind can be immaterial in two ways:  as a property, or as a substance. 

2.  Immaterial properties of the brain might include qualia, propositions (numerical or linguistic), concepts, etc.   

3.  It would seem that these properties are radically more than "life" or "process", if you interpret life and process as referring to sequences of events and temporal relations between and among material objects.  The experience of pain and the proposition 'Socrates is a man' don't seem like the sort of properties that can be predicated of material objects or aggregates. 

4.  You suggest that "'mind' can be physically delineated as a process of life by which the characteristics of real entities are abstracted in terms of their functional commonalities via specific processes of interaction..."

5.  But here you've done nothing more than describe what the mind does in a very superficial manner.  What sort of "interaction" takes place such that I can go from looking at the fingers on my left hand, to creating a base-10 numerical system, to discovering that the sum of any series 1+2+3+4...+n=(1+n)n/2?   

6.  What are these "abstracted" entities signified by Arabic numerals?  How on earth could the mathematical formulae I'm turning over in my head using these numerals be fully explicable in terms of this mess: 

   SMI32-stained pyramidal neurons in cerebral cortex.     ?

7.  Do you not see that I could exhaustively describe the neuronal relationships correlated with the proposition 'Socrates is a man' without any reference whatsoever to the proposition?  Doesn't this strike you as problematic?

8.  If not, I'll ask you to remember this:  x is identical to y if and only if x possesses the same properties as y.   

(Edited by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz on 4/20, 12:50pm)


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Friday, April 20, 2007 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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Let me ask you Leibniz, why do you assume that God works by "supernatural" means?  I'm quite familiar with the bible and christian teachings, but I don't understand why so few sects believe in a God who works by natural means?  While your at it, we'd do well to define "super-natural.  Also, please define "mind."  I realize you're not talking about a brain - are you talking about consciousness, a spirit...?

 consciousness, rationality, and knowledge are themselves--regardless of their causes--immaterial phenomena
This seems to be crucial to your argument, but I don't feel satisfied.  Can you refute the brain surgeon who says that consciousness is a firing of the synapsis in the brain, that rationality is a transfer of electrons, and that knowledge is stored in the mind through a fairly well understood chemical process?  These are not just causes, these are the ends.  I fail to see the justification that there is more to thinking than thought.  If there are natural explanations, why rely upon the immaterial?

Next, abstract does not mean immaterial.  Abstractions would be worthless if there were no material representations.  Certain equations and numbers.. "5" is only meaningful when it's "5 cookies."  Otherwise, your abstraction does not exist.  Can you picture five nothings?  I sure can't, no matter how abstract.  The point is that abstractions have material references.

I don't intend to tell you what beliefs are right or wrong, but I don't think this argument holds much water.  I've read a few of your posts, and am interested from a psychological standpoint.  Could you tell me here, or in a PM, what your purpose in posting is?


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Friday, April 20, 2007 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
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Jeremy B wrote: 
What about the fact that by damaging or manipulating the brain we damage or manipulate the mind? Drugs, brain lesions, magnetic stimulation and myriad other unfortunate events can lead to a bewildering variety of consequences for mind and conciousness. Not merely things like blindness and paralysis, which a dualist could plausibly write off as merely the loss of the input and output connections of the mind, but:

  • Personality changes (prefrontal cortex)

  • Delusions (bizarre beliefs) (various areas, for example, right somatosensory damage can cause the delusion that one has not suffered a brain injury)

  • Amnesia (hippocampus)

  • Apathy and the inability to make decisions or initiate actions (cingulate cortex)

  • Disruption of the moral sense, ability to empathise with others, emotional experience, and/or practical judgement (medial/orbital prefrontal cortex)

There are even reports of brain lesions which have turned Christians into atheists!

No doubt there are dualist responses to this argument. I'd be interested to see one.

I think, as you anticipate, that there are good dualist responses to these arguments. 

Many dualists were former materialists-- like Wilder Penfield (neurosurgeon) and David Chalmers (computer scientist)--primarily on account of these issues, so it would be a mistake to assume that dualists are not very much aware of the force of what science has shown us regarding the brain's connection to the mind.

Last year, the philosopher Richard Swinburne (who defends dualism in his book The Evolution of the Soul) took part in an interview in which he directly addressed many of the sort of issues you've raised.  I've posted the interview in its entirety on a separate thread ('Interview with a dualist philosopher').

(Edited by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz on 4/20, 8:03pm)


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Friday, April 20, 2007 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
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Hi, Joseph.  You wrote,
Let me ask you Leibniz, why do you assume that God works by "supernatural" means?  I'm quite familiar with the bible and christian teachings, but I don't understand why so few sects believe in a God who works by natural means? 
Good question.  I, too, think that the the distinction between the kinds of God's actions often seems vague.  This is why I tried to clear things up a bit when I wrote earlier: 

"Christianity has it that God is a primary cause who upholds a universal system of secondary causes, and who has the power to intervene in this system for the purpose of supplying grace through miracle."

But let me try to be even more clear.  There are two possible ways (I think) of understanding divine action.

1. (The weaker sense) God acts supernaturally if and only if he actualizes any state of affairs in actual world W, such that this state of affairs actualizes in such a way that a plenary scientific analysis of the natural world prior to the actualization of this state of affairs would be insufficient to explain its actualization.  Ex.  Christ's healing the blind man at Bethsaida. 

2. (The stronger sense) God acts supernaturally if and only if he actualizes any state of affairs in actual world W, such that the actualization itself is metaphysically impossible in the absence of God's action--impossible not only in the actual world, but also in all possible worlds.  Ex. Ex nihilo creations or annihilations.  Specifically, Christ's multiplication of the loaves, if they were in fact created out of nothing.

Also, please define "mind."  I realize you're not talking about a brain - are you talking about consciousness, a spirit...?

My definition of (the human) mind differs according to which philosophical conception of mind I'm attempting to describe. 

At this point, while I'm open to the idea of the mind being a material substance with immaterial properties taking the form of mental events as epiphenomena, this conception doesn't make much sense to me, and I do not accept it.  

Thus, you could say that the definition of mind to which I subscribe is that of an immaterial substance in close causal interrelationship with a brain, but still causally efficacious with respect to it (so that mental events can cause brain events, and not just vice-versa).

Can you refute the brain surgeon who says that consciousness is a firing of the synapsis in the brain, that rationality is a transfer of electrons, and that knowledge is stored in the mind through a fairly well understood chemical process?  These are not just causes, these are the ends. 
I would ask the brain surgeon to consider and apply the law of identity, viz. x is y iff x has the same properties as y. 

Consider this logical syllogism: 
1) All men are mortal. 
2) Socrates is a man.
3) Socrates is mortal

Which is causally responsible in forming the conclusion: 'Socrates is mortal'?  The logical form of the premises themselves, or the synapses underlying the premises?  

Still more, is the propositional content in the conclusion 'Socrates is mortal' equivalent to a scientifically exhausive explanation of the brain state with which it is correlated?  If it isn't, how can the proposition just be the brain state?

Since the brain state doesn't have the same properties as the mental state, it would seem that the brain state and mental state cannot be identical.  This follows from the law of identity.   


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Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the response.  You missed every single point I made and failed to respond to some of my concerns, though.

At this point I'm convinced that our chance of effective communication is pretty much 0.  Consider this quote: "It is true intelligence for a man to take a subject that is mysterious and great in itself, and to unfold and simplify it so that a child could understand."  I agree with this principle.  If you have your ideas firmly in mind, it should be possible to simplify.  I have seen many objectivists do so here, and the strongest advocates of positions like yours will also be able to do so.

You seem to be taking the simple and compounding it to the point that it takes a good deal of effort to even guess what you are talking about.  For example:
 an immaterial substance in close causal interrelationship with a brain, but still causally efficacious with respect to it (so that mental events can cause brain events, and not just vice-versa).
This is worthless to me, and so I cannot continue the conversation.  Define the terms, and work from there.  Do you realize how ambiguous this is?  It doesn't even make sense.  "immaterial substance"?  Contradiction.  "close causal interrelationship" in what way?  I can see three or more potential meanings.  "causally efficacious" implying an undefined, intended result.  Fun as this is, I won't do this with your entire post.

Are you trying to tell me that the mind is immaterial, and both acts and acts upon the brain?  You have to do more in a definition that say what it isn't and what it is related to.  Explain it to me like I was a child, if you are able.

I don't mean to criticize you mate - but if we are to communicate, we should do it well.

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 4:27pmSanction this postReply
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At this point I'm convinced that our chance of effective communication is pretty much 0.  Consider this quote: "It is true intelligence for a man to take a subject that is mysterious and great in itself, and to unfold and simplify it so that a child could understand."  I agree with this principle.  If you have your ideas firmly in mind, it should be possible to simplify.  I have seen many objectivists do so here, and the strongest advocates of positions like yours will also be able to do so.

I don't see where I've been unclear.  These issues are highly complex, so I've tried to present the material as clearly as possible without glossing over the fine points. 
You seem to be taking the simple and compounding it to the point that it takes a good deal of effort to even guess what you are talking about.  For example:

 an immaterial substance in close causal interrelationship with a brain, but still causally efficacious with respect to it (so that mental events can cause brain events, and not just vice-versa).
This is worthless to me, and so I cannot continue the conversation.  Define the terms, and work from there. 

I'll try.
Do you realize how ambiguous this is?  It doesn't even make sense.  "immaterial substance"?  Contradiction. 
I don't understand this.  Why is an immaterial substance a contradiction?   
"close causal interrelationship" in what way?  I can see three or more potential meanings.
In the sense that brain states have an effect on mental states and mental states have an effect on brain states.   
 "causally efficacious" implying an undefined, intended result. 
The idea was to define the relationship between the mind and the brain, so that the mind (what I take in this context to be an immaterial substance) is more sharply described.  So what I mean in saying that the mind is "causally efficacious" is that it can have effects on the brain, e.g. by virtue of its thoughts, beliefs, images, pains, desires, etc. 
Are you trying to tell me that the mind is immaterial, and both acts and acts upon the brain? 
Yes.  The mind can cause other mental states (for example, in conceptual analysis) and also cause brain states (for example, the desire of my mind to lift my arm brings about a correlating brain state, which sends a signal to my arm in passing through the brain stem and spinal cord. 


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Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 3:29pmSanction this postReply
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GWL quoted me as:
How is it, once again, that mind is "immaterial?"  How, in that respect, is "mind" more or less "material" than "process," or "life."  Just as "process" refers to a system of events aimed at a goal state, and "life" refers to a subset of "processes" which are characterized by the fact that the goal state is that of preserving the process itself, so "mind" can be physically delineated as a process of life by which the characteristics of real entities are abstracted in terms of their functional commonalities via specific processes of interaction, including sensation, perception and conception, thus enabling the life process supporting the mind to gain energy leverage.  




GWL: 1.  Mind can be immaterial in two ways:  as a property, or as a substance. 
Me: an immaterial "substance"?  Example.?

2.  Immaterial properties of the brain might include qualia, propositions (numerical or linguistic), concepts, etc.   
Where does "system" or "process" fit in?

3.  It would seem that these properties are radically more than "life" or "process", if you interpret life and process as referring to sequences of events and temporal relations between and among material objects.  The experience of pain and the proposition 'Socrates is a man' don't seem like the sort of properties that can be predicated of material objects or aggregates. 

Me: Au Contrare:  Material systems (e.g., neural nets) - albiet primitive - have been designed and been shown to have the capacity of abstraction, which consists of nothing more or less than embodying a specific response to a class of events.  A neural net can be trained to recognize when an image is in focus, for example, and you will see and/or hear the little mechanical devices in your camera move the lens back and forth, looking for that sweet spot, typically guided by a frozen neural net, duplicated from one trained back at a lab long before. 

Generally, for more sophisticated applications, one does not try to ascertain how the neural net learned a particular abstraction, but only to pick one neural net out of many that has learned the abstraction better - more precisely and with fewer false positives - to use as a template for mass production. 

There is nothing requiring the supernatural or beyond the capacity of a modern computer about abstraction either, altho, that said, the linear processing functional hardware design of our current generation of computers is far from optimized for that purpose.  Our biological computing systems are of a very different design, specifically optimized for pattern recognition and abstraction, closer to a neural net, altho far more sophisticated..

4.  You suggest that "'mind' can be physically delineated as a process of life by which the characteristics of real entities are abstracted in terms of their functional commonalities via specific processes of interaction..."

Me: the process of abstraction is simply one level of the self-organization of the physical universe.  Look at an atom.  How is it that we have only a finite set of stable elements (the potential set of unstable configurations of neutrons and protons is probably infinite)? 

And why is it that for each of these elements, energy can only be absorbed or radiated at specific wavelengths?  A simple model suffices to explain how this is possible.  Given the speed of light, a self-reinforcing path of photons of a particular wavelength can only fit into certain physical configurations.  Imagine two photons from the Big Bang, travelling side by side.  Each has a relativistic mass, meaning gravity.  So, they attract each other.  If they have a sufficiently high energy, then the mass, and consequent gravitational attraction will be sufficient for them to go into orbit around each other, and if all conditions are right, viola(!), we have a particle.

From particles, to molecules, to self-replicating molecular structures such as crystals, to self-replicating molecules such as DNA, to living cells, to systems of living cells acting as a single entity, to animals with nervous systems, to human beings with conceptual self-wareness, all are simply further sophistications of the natural self-ordering of the physical universe.

Oops, out of time.  More later...



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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 5:48pmSanction this postReply
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GWL: 1.  Mind can be immaterial in two ways:  as a property, or as a substance.  Me: an immaterial "substance"?  Example.?

I don't know of an example that you would accept, but I needn't provide an example of the existence of the sort of thing I'm attempting to present as existing.
2.  Immaterial properties of the brain might include qualia, propositions (numerical or linguistic), concepts, etc.   
Where does "system" or "process" fit in?

They fit in wherever they succeed in providing a sufficient description of phenomena. 
3.  It would seem that these properties are radically more than "life" or "process", if you interpret life and process as referring to sequences of events and temporal relations between and among material objects.  The experience of pain and the proposition 'Socrates is a man' don't seem like the sort of properties that can be predicated of material objects or aggregates. 
Me: Au Contrare:  Material systems (e.g., neural nets) - albiet primitive - have been designed and been shown to have the capacity of abstraction, which consists of nothing more or less than embodying a specific response to a class of events. 

I'm concerned with a specific kind of response to an event, viz. a mental response (to the activity of a material system) that would appear to be embodied in some kind of immaterial property.    

A neural net can be trained to recognize when an image is in focus, for example, and you will see and/or hear the little mechanical devices in your camera move the lens back and forth, looking for that sweet spot, typically guided by a frozen neural net, duplicated from one trained back at a lab long before. 
OK...
Generally, for more sophisticated applications, one does not try to ascertain how the neural net learned a particular abstraction, but only to pick one neural net out of many that has learned the abstraction better - more precisely and with fewer false positives - to use as a template for mass production. 
OK...
There is nothing requiring the supernatural or beyond the capacity of a modern computer about abstraction either, altho, that said, the linear processing functional hardware design of our current generation of computers is far from optimized for that purpose.
Please tell me what you mean by 'abstraction' in this context. 
Our biological computing systems are of a very different design, specifically optimized for pattern recognition and abstraction, closer to a neural net, altho far more sophisticated..

Again, please tell me what you mean by 'abstraction' and 'recognition' in this context. 
4.  You suggest that "'mind' can be physically delineated as a process of life by which the characteristics of real entities are abstracted in terms of their functional commonalities via specific processes of interaction..."

Me: the process of abstraction is simply one level of the self-organization of the physical universe.  Look at an atom.  How is it that we have only a finite set of stable elements (the potential set of unstable configurations of neutrons and protons is probably infinite)?  

I'm unconvinced that the 'abstraction' of which human beings are capable is a process which can be reproduced using neural networking.  In this, I have the agreement of modern physicists, e.g. Roger Penrose.  In any case, my concern is with how something non-physical (a mental event) can be reduced to something physical (e.g. a 'process' or 'system').
And why is it that for each of these elements, energy can only be absorbed or radiated at specific wavelengths?  A simple model suffices to explain how this is possible.  Given the speed of light, a self-reinforcing path of photons of a particular wavelength can only fit into certain physical configurations.  Imagine two photons from the Big Bang, travelling side by side.  Each has a relativistic mass, meaning gravity.  So, they attract each other.  If they have a sufficiently high energy, then the mass, and consequent gravitational attraction will be sufficient for them to go into orbit around each other, and if all conditions are right, viola(!), we have a particle.

Cool. 
From particles, to molecules, to self-replicating molecular structures such as crystals, to self-replicating molecules such as DNA, to living cells, to systems of living cells acting as a single entity, to animals with nervous systems, to human beings with conceptual self-wareness, all are simply further sophistications of the natural self-ordering of the physical universe.

The question, of course, naturally arises, "Why is the universe self-ordering?" but I will leave such questions aside for now.  The problem I have with your post is, in essence, this:  you've provided nothing sufficient to support the notion that conceptual self-awareness amounts to nothing more than a "natural self-ordering of the physical universe".   

(Edited by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz on 4/24, 5:52pm)


Post 12

Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
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Me: From particles, to molecules, to self-replicating molecular structures such as crystals, to self-replicating molecules such as DNA, to living cells, to systems of living cells acting as a single entity, to animals with nervous systems, to human beings with conceptual self-wareness, all are simply further sophistications of the natural self-ordering of the physical universe.

GWL: The question, of course, naturally arises, "Why is the universe self-ordering?" but I will leave such questions aside for now.  The problem I have with your post is, in essence, this:  you've provided nothing sufficient to support the notion that conceptual self-awareness amounts to nothing more than a "natural self-ordering of the physical universe".   

Me: Just as DNA based self-replicating systems evolved sophisticated means of error checking - "is it ME or a viral intrusion or a copy error, etc.," a kind of primitive self-awareness on the molecular level designed to protect gigabytes of precious, hard won code, so the physical process of a nervous system in abstracting commonalities in order to respond on the basis of classes, from sensation to perception to conception, also reaches a level of complexity and open-endedness at the conceptual level of organization that requires a constant comparison to a model.

We are constantly comparing our behavior, from the gross physical actions of our bodies to our deepest feelings and thoughts, to a model, asking, "is this ME?  Is this what I should be doing - compared to a standard held internally?"  Just as there are specific "mirror" neurons - recently identified - that facilitate empathy with others (autistic kids have damaged or genetically defective mirror neurons, it seems), so we might hypothesize a specific mechanism or neural locus for the constant stepping back from the experience to the reflection on the experience, always checking for a match to what we believe to be our deepest self.

I'm not sure on what level to attempt to answer the broader question about the nature of abstraction.  Very primitive creatures, including, I believe, ameobas even, can learn to associate one class of events - say a chemical or a bright light - with another class of events, say, an electric shock.  Even lacking any capacity for real-time personal learning, such creatures nevertheless are examples of a kind of learning and abstraction via their DNA.  Those with varients of DNA which increase the chances of survival and reproduction in a given environment will naturally dominate over time.  This is a kind of learning, not by individuals, but by the system represented by the species.  An ameoba that only requires two specific chemical cues to know that something is likely to be edible has an advantage over one whose genes dictate that it has to have five such cues.

The ameoba's "consciousness" would be useless in an unordered, random universe, one where there was no underlying regularity or order. It is only because there is order that consciousness in general is possible and useful.  Because there is vast order in our old, highly evolved universe, there is room for and vast advantage to those living systems which can respond to other entities on the basis of identity, meaning class.  Abstraction, as a general principle, consists of a system's capacity to respond to events as classes.  Rand does a pretty good job of laying out a few more details in her Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology.

I haven't read Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science," yet, but as soon as I glanced at the first review, it felt very familiar.  I'm guessing that if he hasn't answered the question about "why" the universe is self-ordering, then he probably at least raises the plane of discussion considerably, from the reviews and comments I've heard.  I reached what I surmize were similar conclusions, although at a much less systematic and mathematically literate level, in the '60's while getting my B.S. in Physics.  You might want to take a look at it, GWL.  Perhaps you may get to it before me and then I will be able to depend upon you for a critique.

What I find interesting is that we can at least reduce things to a few fundamental physical laws or constants and from there project everything that exists in all its complexity.  As an analogy, if you haven't looked at them, you might want to take a look at the Mandelbrot or Julia sets as explicated via the Kai's Power Tools Julia set explorer that comes with COREL Draw and probably with PhotoShop, or with the free graphics program, The GIMP as one of the included plug-ins.  The neat thing about these infinitely complex mathematical sets is that altho there is obviously perceivable order throughout them, the only way that you can predict the value of the next point in the set is by going there, actually doing the calculation.  I.e., vast order without any predictability.



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Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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Just as DNA based self-replicating systems evolved sophisticated means of error checking - "is it ME or a viral intrusion or a copy error, etc.," a kind of primitive self-awareness on the molecular level designed to protect gigabytes of precious, hard won code, so the physical process of a nervous system in abstracting commonalities in order to respond on the basis of classes, from sensation to perception to conception, also reaches a level of complexity and open-endedness at the conceptual level of organization that requires a constant comparison to a model.
Mental activity goes far beyond abstraction in the form of categorization or classification, doesn't it? 
We are constantly comparing our behavior, from the gross physical actions of our bodies to our deepest feelings and thoughts, to a model, asking, "is this ME?  Is this what I should be doing - compared to a standard held internally?"  Just as there are specific "mirror" neurons - recently identified - that facilitate empathy with others (autistic kids have damaged or genetically defective mirror neurons, it seems), so we might hypothesize a specific mechanism or neural locus for the constant stepping back from the experience to the reflection on the experience, always checking for a match to what we believe to be our deepest self.

I remember reading an article about mirror neurons in Scientific American awhile ago.  I'm intrigued by the discovery, and am optimistic that we can use our knowledge in this area to diagnose and address certain mental disabilities.  However, I don't see how it is that mirror neurons nor other physical mechanisms can be identified with mental phenomena qua mental phenomena.  Fermat's Last Theorem, as a mental conception, should not be confused with the neuronal activity with which it is correlated.
I'm not sure on what level to attempt to answer the broader question about the nature of abstraction.  Very primitive creatures, including, I believe, ameobas even, can learn to associate one class of events - say a chemical or a bright light - with another class of events, say, an electric shock.  Even lacking any capacity for real-time personal learning, such creatures nevertheless are examples of a kind of learning and abstraction via their DNA.  Those with varients of DNA which increase the chances of survival and reproduction in a given environment will naturally dominate over time.  This is a kind of learning, not by individuals, but by the system represented by the species.  An ameoba that only requires two specific chemical cues to know that something is likely to be edible has an advantage over one whose genes dictate that it has to have five such cues.
I wonder whether we ought to say that an ameoba 'abstracts' and 'classifies' just because its material composition is capable of reacting differently to classes of events.  Surely, as you say, this amounts to a "kind of learning", but it is nevertheless at a considerable distance from the sort of learning which the human intellect engages in. 
The ameoba's "consciousness" would be useless in an unordered, random universe, one where there was no underlying regularity or order. It is only because there is order that consciousness in general is possible and useful.  Because there is vast order in our old, highly evolved universe, there is room for and vast advantage to those living systems which can respond to other entities on the basis of identity, meaning class.  Abstraction, as a general principle, consists of a system's capacity to respond to events as classes.  Rand does a pretty good job of laying out a few more details in her Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology.

Abstraction, as it relates to human perception, seems to me something more.  It consists in not only responding to events as classes, but also in being capable of knowing why the particular event falls under the particular class, which involves conceptual analysis, not mere systematic response.
I haven't read Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science," yet, but as soon as I glanced at the first review, it felt very familiar.  I'm guessing that if he hasn't answered the question about "why" the universe is self-ordering, then he probably at least raises the plane of discussion considerably, from the reviews and comments I've heard. 
The amazon.com reviews seem to be mainly negative.  He allegedly re-presents ideas that have been on the table for decades, and passes them off as the stuff of originality. 
I reached what I surmize were similar conclusions, although at a much less systematic and mathematically literate level, in the '60's while getting my B.S. in Physics.  You might want to take a look at it, GWL.  Perhaps you may get to it before me and then I will be able to depend upon you for a critique.

Yeah, I'll take a look.  (I probably won't be able to read the entire thing; it looks a bit longish.) 
What I find interesting is that we can at least reduce things to a few fundamental physical laws or constants and from there project everything that exists in all its complexity. 
I gather that these fundamental physical laws and constants must still be of a particular kind.  Why of this kind and not another?
As an analogy, if you haven't looked at them, you might want to take a look at the Mandelbrot or Julia sets as explicated via the Kai's Power Tools Julia set explorer that comes with COREL Draw and probably with PhotoShop, or with the free graphics program, The GIMP as one of the included plug-ins.  The neat thing about these infinitely complex mathematical sets is that altho there is obviously perceivable order throughout them, the only way that you can predict the value of the next point in the set is by going there, actually doing the calculation.  I.e., vast order without any predictability.

I've looked at the sets before.

They remind me of this:  http://www.jstor.org/view/00318205/di975051/97p0323q/0 


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