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Post 20

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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Bill--
I forgot to ask you: You said in your last post that "Life is an end in itself only because it is an enjoyable process. If it were a veil of tears it would not be worth living."  Does this not go against Rand's statement that "Man is an end in himself."?  It would seem that that statement was talking about ALL men and not just some of them.  Thanks again:)


Post 21

Wednesday, September 5, 2007 - 7:26pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher, you wrote,
I want to say however that I thought that the standard by which one was supposed to reach happiness in Objectivism was the requirements of man's survival, given his nature.
 

Wrong!  "life," not "survival"



Post 22

Wednesday, September 5, 2007 - 7:28pmSanction this postReply
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I think that I may have asked this before, but how the heck do I break out of the blockquote mode - or into it???  Thanks, anyone.

Post 23

Wednesday, September 5, 2007 - 11:25pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher, you asked,
Would you say that the standard of man's life is applicable only to beings who are happy?
No, it is applicable only to beings who are capable of being happy.
I know that Peikoff said something about the choice to live being pre-moral; are these things connected in some way? I mean, is it the case that one should only choose life as one's standard under certain conditions?
No. Life is one's standard under all conditions. Even if one chooses to commit suicide, life is still one's standard, because suicide is justified only if a healthy, viable life -- a life proper to man -- is no longer possible, such as when a person is suffering from terminal cancer. Btw, I don't agree that there is a pre-moral choice to live, because a choice presupposes an end or goal for the sake of which one is making the choice, which means that the choice is subject to moral evaluation in terms of that end or goal.
And if this is the case, is there an objective standard by which to make the decision to live or die?
Yes, if you have something to live for, then you make the choice to live. A terminal cancer patient whom life has nothing to offer is justified in choosing to end his or her life.

You also wrote,
I forgot to ask you: You said in your last post that "Life is an end in itself only because it is an enjoyable process. If it were a veil of tears it would not be worth living." Does this not go against Rand's statement that "Man is an end in himself."? It would seem that that statement was talking about ALL men and not just some of them.
No, it doesn't go against Rand's statement that man is an end in himself, by which she simply means that everyone should pursue his own interest as an end in itself. Sometimes, it may be in one's self-interest to end one's life, as in the above example.

Phil, Rand means the same thing by "survival" as she does by "life." She uses these terms interchangeably. For example, she writes, "Ethics is an objective necessity of man's survival -- not by the grace of the supernatural nor of your neighbors nor of your whims, but by the grace of reality and the nature of life." She also states, "The Objectivist ethics proudly advocates and upholds rational selfishness -- which means: the values required for man's survival qua man -- which means: the values required for human survival . . . ."

- Bill

Post 24

Friday, September 7, 2007 - 11:01amSanction this postReply
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Bill--
I think that pain can be judged as being good or bad in Objectivism only if it threatens one's ability to survive.  (See the article Fact and Value by Leonard Peikoff, or else the ethical statements of John Galt in Atlas Shrugged.)  I also think that suicide would have to be irrational according to Objectivist principles because if I make the judgement that anything is bad in Objectivism it must be ultimately because it threatens my ability to survive;  however, I could not throw away my life on the basis that it was bad that my life was being threatened; this would be to commit the contradiction of acting for that which I implied was the bad for me.  I do wonder however, if life were a veil of tears (and for those lives which are and cannot help it) why in the hell they would want to survive.  The only answer that I can think of is that to act for one's survival is to act for oneself and that to act for one's destruction is to act as one's own enemy.


Post 25

Friday, September 7, 2007 - 11:36pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher,

You wrote that, according to Objectivism, pain can be judged as bad only if it threatens one's ability to survive, and cited Peikoff's "Fact and Value" and Galt's speech as evidence. Would you mind quoting the relevant passages, so that I see what it is that you're relying on for that conclusion?

I would say that pain is an insignia of adverse consequences to one's physical survival. E.g., if one feels a toothache, it's a sign of tooth decay and therefore of damage to a vital part of one's anatomy. It's a warning sign of something that is bad for one's health and survival. Pain serves an important survival function by enabling one to identify injury or illness. People born without the ability to feel pain have their own health and survival severely compromised.

But pain is also undesirable for its own sake, and worth avoiding for that reason as well, which is not something that Objectivism would dispute. If you think it does, then, in my opinion, you misunderstand Rand's philosophy. Rand would never have said that if pain didn't reflect illness or injury, it wouldn't be worth avoiding.

Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 9/07, 11:59pm)


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