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Post 20

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 3:57amSanction this postReply
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What Ryan said.

Ed


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Post 21

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 4:43pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,
Are you saying we abstain from theft so as to have better orgasms?
I might suppose you are answering my point about not being able to truly own anything if one has committed theft, and you are saying Madoff, et. al., owned and enjoyed their stolen lucre... is that it? I don't think that point can be substantiated. Madoff isn't enjoying it now... I can't imagine how Bundy fits in...
Without speaking specifically to theft or "predation," I would claim that we do the moral thing in order not to harm ourselves. A concern for morality, when it isn't based on authority of some sort, is part of recognizing that our actions can have unforseen consequences. Moral options are those alternatives that don't backfire on us. 


Post 22

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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Are you still referring to the "man's life" in either a "collective" or "abstract" sense? I still don't get it.

Post 23

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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First of all, I apologize for taking so long to respond.  I have playing with my new mobile internet (on my phone), and have been having so much fun with it that I have neglected the computer.  However, I haven't found a way to be able to respond to these posts on my phone, so I had to wait until I was done playing with my phone to get back on the computer and respond to you guys.
Secondly, what I meant by "collective", in this context, was that for each man his own life is his standard of value.  I realize now that even if this were the case there still might be a chance that one would have to respect other's standard of value in acting on one's own standard, as doing otherwise might mean acting as though the common facts which give rise to both standards (yours and the other persons) were not true.  One would thereby be acting against one's own standard, I presume.  I also realize that I may have been wrong in the way I employed the term "collective".  I will look into the issue, and try to quit using the term the wrong way if that is what I find I have been doing.
Thirdly,  I have found it comforting to think of Rand's saying that "rational interests don't conflict" lately, in regards to this issue;  if one looks at it from one aspect, it makes sense because NO two things whatsoever (so long as both are rational) can conflict.  This applies not only to interests, but to any two rational things at all.  It also seems to me to apply even if more than one individual is involved in the two things which might be claimed to conflict with one another.
Thanks to all of you for your responses.  I think I now am closer to a definite stance on this issue (plus I may  be closer to an understanding of the meaning of "Man's life").   ;)


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Post 24

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
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Actually, rational interests can conflict, but only in very rare circumstances. In a normal social context, where survival is possible by production and trade, they don't. In other words, in a life-boat or emergency situation, predation may be justified if it's necessary to save your life, but we don't live in a life-boat, so predation is not a rational method of survival in a normal society.

It is true that in certain cases, one might be able to get away with preying on another person, but to adopt predation as a rational approach to life is to grant the same principle to others, which would mean that you become their prey, which is not in your self-interest. If survival is possible by production and trade, then it is in everyone's self-interest to renounce the initiation of force against others in order to be free from the initiation of force by others.

As Rand puts it, "Man -- every man -- is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself." It is clear that her use of "man" in this case refers to every individual qua individual rather than to a collective of individuals.

- Bill

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Post 25

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 11:42amSanction this postReply
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Bill writes:
    "Actually, rational interests can conflict [...] In other words, in a life-boat or emergency situation, predation may be justified if it's necessary to save your life"
Just to get the full story on the table, not everyone agrees with this viewpoint. For the newcomers here who missed the earlier discussions, you may wish to refer to the last major go-round on this issue from May 2008, under the topic Randula, the Altruist Slayer. This link points midway through that discussion to where things start to really focus on the issue of predation.

I also forgot to mention the discussion from August 2008 under the topic The Right to Keep and Bear Arms, again, linking in at a somewhat arbitrary midpoint.

Regards,
--
Jeff


(Edited by C. Jeffery Small on 1/15, 11:49am)


Post 26

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 1:17pmSanction this postReply
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I HAVE to ask, Bill, you'd kill a fellow life-boat passenger for food?

Again on the "collective" vs. "abstract" takes on "man's life," I think Rand's view might be misunderstood here. Christopher writes, "...for each man, his own life is his standard of value." He continues to note that at some point, one man may have to take another's man's standard of value into consideration...
In Objectivism, "man's life" means the endeavor to live productively and self-responsibly, with one's own satisfactions and achievements as the purpose. That's true because it is man's nature; all men have that nature. Unless I'm badly mistaken, there are no two interpretations here, "collective" and "abstract." "Man's life" isn't different for different men.

(Edited by Mindy Newton on 1/15, 4:33pm)


Post 27

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
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There is a sense in which rational interests can conflict, that is not a lifeboat situation, and it doesn't contradict Objectivists ethics.

I and another person can both wish to purchase the same piece of land - that is a conflict. That doesn't mean that it would be rational, or that we would be willing, to abandon civilized means of resolving conflicts (having laws, highest bidder wins, etc.) Our conflict is at one level, while at a deeper level, we have no conflict.

There is a difference between an argument where one is talking about having no BASIC ethical conflict as fellow humans with individual rights, versus accidental or minor conflicts that we attempt to design our systems to fairly resolve.

I'm not coming up with the right language here, but perhaps someone else gets what I mean and can find the right words.

Post 28

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 3:00pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Wishes can conflict, but rights cannot. I think that is how Objectivism views it.

Jordan





Post 29

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan, that works for me.

Post 30

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 4:33pmSanction this postReply
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"I HAVE to ask, Bill, you'd kill a fellow life-boat passenger for food?" - Mindy.

No, he would only kill her after he raped her.

Post 31

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 6:40pmSanction this postReply
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See Voltaire's "Candide."  He portrays how the intellectuals of the time argued from principle that one should be "moral," and then knifed each other in the back at the first opportunity.  Rand's great contribution was NOT to demonstrate why one should personally "do the right thing," even when there are great immediate gains to be made from being a total predator.  Her arguments in that arena are the best to date, I suspect, when she made them, but are simply not persuasive.

 

As Xerene and Strackon argued in "Invictus," published by George Smith in the late '60's, if one can get love AND steal money from one's lover, then one is that much better off.  And, regarding acting from principle, there is that saying about the hobgoblin of little minds.  A truck driver might have a set of guiding principles, too, as in, staying between the lines, keeping a safe following distance, checking the fluids regularly, not letting one's attention drift from the road, not stopping to do other things while en route.  However, if he spots a bag of money lying on the ground next to the road, then he would have to be crazy not to at least consider violating some principles in order to grab the bag.

 

What Rand did do was bind the concept of moral to the concept of life, arguing that "value" was not an arbitrary reflection of whatever one chose to pursue, but rather could be shown to only have meaning with respect to life, to begin with, and then could be bounded and organized into a set of principles by reference to the specific needs of a particular life form as well as the general principles involved in avoiding conflicting interests, not attempting the impossible, etc.  A maximized value set would therefore be one in which one pursued interesting, pleasurable, consistent, life enhancing goals.

 

What she didn't discuss - ever, as far as I know, and for reasons with which most of us have some familiarity - was Branden's contribution to the discussion in "The Psychology of Self-Esteem," which I cited.  Branden demonstrated that the value of other consciousnesses was not simply the collective value of the background of civilization and technology, etc., that we all enjoy, nor personal partnerships and their practical advantages.  That much would still fit into the "Candide" paradigm.  Fine for most of the time, and great to convince other people to follow, but no reason to make it a religion when personal advantage is at stake.

 

Sure, other people are valuable, but any random person's contribution to my personal welfare is zilch.  So, I can consistently support rational values for civilization collectively, and try to convince all my associates to behave as though God was watching them, even though I personally have no belief in any such incentive, and meanwhile rip off my friends and lovers whenever there is a chance to do so in which great gains are accompanied by virtually zero chance of being caught.

 

However, there is a need, if one pursues that strategy, to constantly monitor one's emotions and spontaneous reactions, not just because one might stupidly let something slip about one's secret predatory inclinations, but because that invisible part of one's psyche needs perceptual reaffirmation as much as any other part.  Thus the compulsion that many criminals feel to tell someone about their latest triumph - and the sense of invisibility that follows once one has removed one's self from moral culture.

 

These combined motivations fuel the creation of all kinds of groups that offer the opportunity to the individual to be intimate with fellows from the group, while systematically alienating one from society in general.  I mean gangs, religions, terrorist organizations, etc., etc.  The common thread is that the members treat each other as brothers, regardless of past behavior - and, in the case of many criminal groups, specifically because one has violated general moral principle to the point of no return, as in the common gang entrance exam of committing a random murder. 

 

The attention and value that most people place upon intimacy, lovers, friendships, etc., often willing to risk their lives for a lover or friend, for example, simply reflects how important that mirror of one's "soul" in fact is.  The fundamental driver is self-love, but that in no way reduces the value to one of the other person.  Rather, it is that self-love that makes the other person in an intimate relationship so valuable.  And it is that value that drives the need to act honorably - and thus morally - in general, such that one's life could be an open book.  This does not exclude the potential of acting as a predator in real lifeboat situations, of course.  Any rational person might do so with full moral consistency.

(Edited by Phil Osborn on 1/15, 6:46pm)


Post 32

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 7:49pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,
Are you really saying that deriving psychological visibility from someone is the only reason we have to value them?


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Post 33

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 10:26pmSanction this postReply
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Mindy writes, "I HAVE to ask, Bill, you'd kill a fellow life-boat passenger for food?"

I'm not sure I'd have the stomach for it (no pun intended). But I don't think you could argue that it would be irrational or immoral, if my life were my highest value, and I had no other way to survive.

That doesn't mean, of course, that I'd have "a right" to do it, in the sense of an individual right, for the other person would be equally justified in defending himself and in trying to survive at my expense. And even if I did succeed in killing him in order to survive, I could be prosecuted for murder, as the law would necessarily have to side with the victim.

Fortunately, that situation is unlikely ever to occur and has no implications for ethics or survival under normal circumstances.

- Bill

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Post 34

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 10:47pmSanction this postReply
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In regard to Phil Osborn's post (#31), I don't think that psychological visibility is a sufficient justification for the principle of individual rights. The justification is the fact that our choices necessarily reflect a principle of conduct, whether we recognize it or not.

If it's okay to rip others off when we can get away with it, then it's okay for others to rip us off when they can get away with it, which is the moral principle that all predators have implicitly adopted. The result in acting on such a principle is the abandonment of civilized conduct and the surrender of one's right to life. If one's life is one's highest value, then it behooves us to adopt a principle that respects that value.

- Bill

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Post 35

Friday, January 16, 2009 - 8:26amSanction this postReply
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Bill's view is identical Rand's. Rand herself said said in rare emergency situations there can arise a conflict of rational interests. She famously used her stuck in the woods example, having to break into a cabin to get food to survive. If people have a problem with that then that's fine, Rand certainly doesn't have the final word but I'd like to hear a rational argument dissenting from Rand's view, because to date I haven't heard one yet.

Post 36

Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 4:37pmSanction this postReply
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Mindy:

re: Post #32 (as well as previous posts alleging to be replies to my posts)

Phil,
Are you really saying that deriving psychological visibility from someone is the only reason we have to value them?

RU really that dumb?  Obviously not.  Then why are you obfuscating the issues?  Could it be that you are actually a Troll?  What other possibilities remain?

William: re Post #34

In regard to Phil Osborn's post (#31), I don't think that psychological visibility is a sufficient justification for the principle of individual rights.

Now I'm confused.  I thought that we were talking specifically about predation, not individual rights as such. 



Post 37

Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 5:06pmSanction this postReply
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Ah, to be accused of being a troll by our resident pacifist yellow-menace conspiracy-theorist! I have waited years for such a compliment.

Post 38

Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 5:25pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,
When you say, "The attention and value that most people place upon intimacy, lovers, friendships, etc., often willing to risk their lives for a lover or friend, for example, simply reflects how important that mirror of one's "soul" in fact is," which is the first sentence in your last paragraph, post 31, you are quite clearly saying we get no value from friends or lovers beyond psychological visibility.
The whole second half of your post, 31, is about psychological visibility. You say, "...it is that need [psychological visibility] that drives the need to act... morally..." This, also, is in the last paragraph. Law is one subsection of morality, so what applies to morality applies to law.
Dumb? I would choose the term, "stupid" for what's going on here. I've gotten the "you're a troll!" thing before, but I don't understand what you mean. Am I supposed to be someone other than who I say I am? Why would you think so?

Mindy 


Post 39

Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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Not to give phil's comments too much validity, but I would say any theory that takes a persons utility to someone else as a basis to prevent predation or form rights, is dangerous and flawed. Also, since it was mentioned, The original question was regarding how objectivism handles the concept of predation on others for one's own "good". That is a question of individual rights.

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