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Monday, November 22, 2010 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
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Here's another piece of disagreement.

Mathematicians (as myself) often claim that mathematical objects are discovered. Also, they claim that mathematical truths can be investigated without any connection to reality.

I believe Rand opposed those views and she certainly opposed Russel, who was one of the scientists to do work on mathematical logic that shaped the modern understanding of maths.

While I'm with Rand on most issues, this isn't one of them.

The "discovery" of mathematical objects is not Plato's realm of ideas as certainly we've not lived in it prior to our birth or have any knowledge of it prior to the discovery in any way or form. Maths is like logic (or, rather, logic is the simplest of maths). De'Morgans law, for example, is discovered, and it's not about reality, although it can be applied to it. People might argue at this point that one can't discover it without reality, but I disagree, and I haven't seen a proof of this claim yet.

I've seen a lot of maths that is in no way whatsoever rooted in reality (uncountability, unmeasurability, etc.), although often history has shown that links to reality are discovered after the maths has already been developed.

I believe I found a plausible explanation of why Rand was likely to see these new developments in Maths as an attack on reason. One is that some of the scientists were also socialists. Another is that it's not immediately useful knowledge. The Principia Mathematica is a tome that proves what every child knows anyway. Also, some of the work might have actually been misused to attach reason indeed, although the research itself is valid. I recall Gödels Incompleteness Theorem being used to "prove" that man cannot prove every true theorem. That conclusion is false and an attack on reason - the theorem itself is correct.

In addition, phrases like "axioms are arbitrary" are simple to misunderstand when taken out of context. The statement is correct in it's specific meaning and should come along with "but only some are useful".

None of that research is irrational. I studied maths because that was the most rational subject, and it is indeed today grounded on those insights. The mathematical faculties are, in a way, honey pots for escapist reason-lovers.

What I like to know is:

a) I know maths, but little philosophy (safe Rand). The analytic-synthetic-dichotomy sounds to me as if they're talking about the facts-about-reality vs. logic dichotomy that mathematicians insist on being real. Is it the same issue?

b) Is there someone who wrote something comprehensive about this topic?

Cheers,

Jens



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Monday, November 22, 2010 - 5:48pmSanction this postReply
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Jens,

The analytic-synthetic-dichotomy sounds to me as if they're talking about the facts-about-reality vs. logic dichotomy that mathematicians insist on being real. Is it the same issue?
I'd say yes, it is.

Mathematicians may say that certain things are 'logically possible' while also being counterfactual. But, even still, that doesn't seem to be the problem. It's not that things are 'logically possible' (don't involve an "internal contradiction"), it's how these 'logically possible' things are used in the external world (where you find an "external-" or "performatory-contradiction"). You mentioned socialist mathematicians.

A mathematician, adopting utilitarian morality, may say that it's 'logically possible' to tax citizens at 90% of their earnings -- in order to redistribute wealth. But, in doing so, the mathematician -- acting as a utilitarian "good maximizer" -- adopts a performatory contradiction. The 90% tax rate doesn't, in real life, perform (it doesn't increase tax revenue). This is because of reality. So, reality gets in the way when 'logically possible' things are tried.

Is that any help?

Ed


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Monday, November 22, 2010 - 6:13pmSanction this postReply
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Jens,

The foundations of math are arrived at inductively, not deductively. So are the foundations of logic.

For instance, in order to grasp the proposition that “One plus one equals two,” one must first have formed its constituent concepts. How does one form the concepts “one” and “two”? In the same way that one forms any other concept -- by observing various instances of the concept’s units and then abstracting their common feature – i.e., by observing that certain things bear a greater similarity to each other than they do to certain other thing(s) from which they’re being differentiated. In other words, one forms a concept by identifying similarity against a background of difference.

For example, one forms the concept ‘fruit’ by observing that (say) an apple and an orange bear a greater similarity to each other than either does to (say) a carrot or a beet. Similarly, one forms the concept ‘apple’ by observing that two different apples (say a MacIntosh and a Pippin) bear a greater similarity to each other than either does to (say) an orange or a pear.

The same principle applies in forming the concept of a particular number (say, two). One observes that a group of two oranges and a group of two apples, say, bear a greater numerical similarity to each other than either does to a group of three oranges or to a group of four apples. In so doing, one isolates what the groups of two have in common as against the other groups, and thereby forms the abstraction ‘two’, which one then designates by the visual-auditory symbol “two” or “2.” The same principle of concept formation pertains to numerical concepts as to any other concept.

Having formed the concepts “one” and “two” along with the concepts of ‘addition’ and ‘equality,” one can then grasp the proposition “One plus one equals two.”

The laws of logic are also discovered by observing reality – by observing that existence is non-contradictory – that existence is identity. Aristotelian philosopher H.W.B. Joseph makes this point as follows:
We cannot think contradictory propositions, because we see that a thing cannot have at once and not have the same character; and the so-called necessity of thought is really the apprehension of a necessity in the being of things. This we may see if we ask what would follow, were it a necessity of thought only; for then, while e.g. I could not think at once that this page is and is not white, the page itself might at once be white and not white. But to admit this is to admit that I can think the page to have and not have the same character, in the very act of saying that I cannot think it; and this is self-contradictory. The Law of Contradiction then is metaphysical or ontological. So also is the Law of Identity. It is because what is must be determinately what it is, that I must so think. (An Introduction to Logic, Oxford University Press, p. 13.)
There is no analytic/synthetic dichotomy. All concepts and all propositions (whether logical or mathematical) are ultimately arrived at by observing concrete reality, and then applying reason to the evidence of the senses. The discovery of relations between mathematical concepts and their implications can be arrived at deductively, but the process of deduction must ultimately be based on inductive generalizations and empirical observation.




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Monday, November 22, 2010 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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Jens wrote:
Mathematicians (as myself) often claim that mathematical objects are discovered. Also, they claim that mathematical truths can be investigated without any connection to reality.
I believe Rand opposed those views
Why do you say Rand opposed the claim that mathematical objects are discovered?  I don't know what Rand would have said about your second sentence. My personal view is that some mathematical truths are very loosely connected to reality or have no counterparts in reality.  Mathematics has plenty of what Rand would probably have called "concepts of method." 
The "discovery" of mathematical objects is not Plato's realm of ideas as certainly we've not lived in it prior to our birth or have any knowledge of it prior to the discovery in any way or form.
Then how is it discovered?
De'Morgans law, for example, is discovered, and it's not about reality, although it can be applied to it.
Do you mean this?  Why aren't the first two formal logic statements about reality?
People might argue at this point that one can't discover it without reality, but I disagree, and I haven't seen a proof of this claim yet.
Why do you disagree?
I recall Gödels Incompleteness Theorem being used to "prove" that man cannot prove every true theorem. That conclusion is false and an attack on reason - the theorem itself is correct.
I thought Gödels Incompleteness Theorem was that there are statements (not theorems) that are true that can't be proved, e.g. Goldbach's conjecture. (I thought having being proven is required to be a "theorem.")
Is there someone who wrote something comprehensive about this topic?
You can find my Objectivity articles The Nature of Numbers and Philosophy of Mathematics via the link on my profile page. They are in Volume 1, Numbers 1 & 2. Click on my name above the bird picture to find the link.

Bill Dwyer wrote:

All concepts and all propositions (whether logical or mathematical) are ultimately arrived at by observing concrete reality
How is the product of two matrices ultimately arrived at by observing concrete reality?  :-)   How about the set of all real numbers being larger than the set of all integers?  :-)


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Monday, November 22, 2010 - 10:45pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote,

"All concepts and all propositions (whether logical or mathematical) are ultimately arrived at by observing concrete reality. The discovery of relations between mathematical concepts and their implications can be arrived at deductively, but the process of deduction must ultimately be based on inductive generalizations and empirical observation." Merlin replied,
How is the product of two matrices ultimately arrived at by observing concrete reality? :-) How about the set of all real numbers being larger than the set of all integers? :-)
Oh, come on, Merlin, you can't be serious! Is that why you threw in the smiley faces? Matrices are a product of mathematical knowledge that is based ultimately on empirical observation; there was no suggestion that a mathematical concept like a 'matrix' requires the observation of concrete instances of it, any more than the concept of a unicorn requires the observation of real unicorns.

As for the set of all real numbers being larger than the set of all integers, both sets are potentially infinite, and cannot therefore comprise "all" such numbers, for to comprise all of them, it would have to be finite. "All" means that there is no more of them, but in a potentially infinite series, there is always more. That's what it means to say that they're potentially infinite: One can never exhaust the number, in which case, it makes no sense to say that "all" of one set is larger than "all" of the other.




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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 12:14amSanction this postReply
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Jens,

b) Is there someone who wrote something comprehensive about this topic?
While it's not very comprehensive, you could start here:
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/analytic-synthetic_dichotomy.html

As for comprehensive, there is a lengthy discussion following my essay on the matter here:
http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Thompson/The_Veridicality_of_Conceptual_Discernment.shtml

Ed


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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 4:26amSanction this postReply
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Bill Dwyer wrote:

One can never exhaust the number, in which case, it makes no sense to say that "all" of one set is larger than "all" of the other.

The way to compare them is to ask for a bijective (one-to-one) mapping from one set A into a subset of the other B.

If that's possible to give then A is said to be greater than B.

(Please excuse my jargon, I'm not an english native and maths has different terminology in German.)

There are "more" real numbers than natural numbers in that sense.

This insight has been "discovered", I'd say (that's also an answer to Merlin), but I can't see what reality has to do with it. :)

Merlin Jetton wrote:

Do you mean this?
 
Yes.
 
Why aren't the first two formal logic statements about reality?

They can be applied to reality, if I talk about facts of reality. If I told about uncountable sets, then they're about maths, which isn't reality. Neither are hobbits.

I understand that there is a strong tradition in Objectivism to class reality as "everything", but that's silly in my book. If it really is everything, why need a word for it (other than everything)? And then it's not really used as such. Phantasy isn't reality, nor are hypothetical assumptions or maths.

I thought Gödels Incompleteness Theorem was that there are statements (not theorems) that are true that can't be proved

My use of theorem was probably sloppy.

The Incompleteness Theorem merely says that there is no axiomatic system (formulated in predicate logic) that models number theory in which every true statement of number theory can be logically deduced purely from those axioms. Any such system will either be contradictory or incomplete - hence the name.

I don't know what's "unsolvable" about the Goldback conjecture, Wikipedia being ominous about it.

I've googled and found that connection to Gödel in other sources too. It strikes me as absurd though. I'd be interested if anyone knows more about it.

Merlin, Ed, thanks for the links, I have yet to read up on them.

As to the Peikoff reference, I skimmed over his analytic-synthetic-dichotomy paper that's part of the introduction of objectivist epistemology. I find philosophical texts often easy to misinterpret. That's why I was asking for confirmation whether other people understood what I understood it to mean.


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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 5:08amSanction this postReply
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Bill Dwyer wrote:
Oh, come on, Merlin, you can't be serious! Is that why you threw in the smiley faces? Matrices are a product of mathematical knowledge that is based ultimately on empirical observation; there was no suggestion that a mathematical concept like a 'matrix' requires the observation of concrete instances of it, any more than the concept of a unicorn requires the observation of real unicorns.
I didn't know what you meant by "ultimately." Did you mean "wholly" or "partly"? I would say that matrix multiplication is partly based on concrete reality. Multiplication and addition of numbers are based on concrete reality, but there is more to matrix multiplication than that. Analogously, a unicorn is based partly on reality but not wholly.

Bill Dwyer wrote:
As for the set of all real numbers being larger than the set of all integers, both sets are potentially infinite, and cannot therefore comprise "all" such numbers, for to comprise all of them, it would have to be finite. "All" means that there is no more of them, but in a potentially infinite series, there is always more. That's what it means to say that they're potentially infinite: One can never exhaust the number, in which case, it makes no sense to say that "all" of one set is larger than "all" of the other.
That is not a dictionary kind of meaning for "all", but I will accept it for a finite set. However, my question was about infinite sets and you did not answer it 'yes' or 'no'.  Why doesn't it make sense, for example, to say the set of all real numbers in the range [0, 2] is larger than the the set of all real numbers in the range [0, 1] ?  The latter is a proper subset (link) of the former.

Bill Dwyer wrote:
One can never exhaust the number, in which case, it makes no sense to say that "all" of one set is larger than "all" of the other.
Jens replied:
The way to compare them is to ask for a bijective (one-to-one) mapping from one set A into a subset of the other B.
That's not the only way. Let each real number n be mapped to its integer part, which is an infinite-to-one mapping.
I don't know what's "unsolvable" about the Goldback conjecture, Wikipedia being ominous about it.
I interpret "unsolvable" in the Wikipedia article to mean "unproven" (for all integers).


(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 11/23, 5:28am)


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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 8:01amSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

You wrote,
Why doesn't it make sense, for example, to say the set of all real numbers in the range [0, 2] is larger than the the set of all real numbers in the range [0, 1].
Well, of course, it does, but this doesn't mean that math isn't based ultimately on empirical observation.


(Edited by William Dwyer on 11/23, 8:04am)


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Wednesday, November 24, 2010 - 8:35amSanction this postReply
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Jens Theisen,

Welcome.

Concerning what is included canonically in Rand’s philosophy of Objectivism, beyond philosophy in her own writings that she chose to publish, I would note as here.

As mentioned in that note, Rand’s philosophy includes a certain stand on the analytic-synthetic distinction, as in Leonard Piekoff’s 1967 essay, so far as it goes.

Recently, of note in RoR concerning mathematical knowledge: this book.

In Objectivity Mathematic Empiric.

—Stephen


(Edited by Stephen Boydstun on 11/24, 8:57pm)


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