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Post 260

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 3:08amSanction this postReply
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Trun claims that blacks don't have the potential to build well-functioning, productive, low-crime, property-respecting free-market societies.

How racist is that!

Crying "racist!" is your crutch whenever you don't have an argument other than proposing that people can transcend.  

Notice my "racist!" statement was not even normative, but rather descriptive.  Either it's true or false.  Processing the statement requires an assessment of its correspondence with reality. 

Try this one: Europeans don't have the same potential to become gold medalists in sprinting as Africans.  Crying "racist!" won't help you determine whether it's true or false.  Evidence will:

Australian scientists discovered  that a gene called ACTN3 has variants which may give performance advantage to the muscles of elite athletes.

In effect, it can give sprinters a boost because it gives extra power to muscle cells that are required for fast, forceful actions. Studies show that this ‘sprint’ version of the ACTN3 gene is more common in Jamaicans, for example, and others of West African descent than in people of European ancestry.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167996/Why-progeny-slaves-strike-gold-Olympics.html#ixzz201WuTiHn



Race and Intelligence: Unlocking the Truth

http://libertarianrealist.blogspot.com/2012/06/race-and-intelligence-unlocking-truth.html

 Thumbnail

One of the key points of The Bell Curve was that we should be prepared to cope with the reality of different outcomes because they are rooted in different innate potentials. You deny reality, besmirch those who identify it as "racist!" and insist that belief in a metaphysically unfounded equality be given primacy.

(Edited by Brad Trun on 7/08, 3:09am)


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Post 261

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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Brad,

The difference between Charles Murray and yourself is he is arguing against government social engineering, you are arguing for it. Regardless of the individual points you make that I may accept I see the situation like this: 1. The studies you reference are social science, real controlled long term experiments are impossible. The variables regarding humans are too numerous and there are too many unknown unknowns. 2. What is known is regardless of the differences in mean IQ measured at any point in time the distributions overlap, meaning there can never be justification for discrimination against any individual by a governmental entity or in my opinion, anyone. Discrimination by race is anti-reason. 3. Cultural habits and ideas matter more than IQ when evaluating statistical outcomes by race.

In your above example of sprinters, racism would be setting up races where persons of African origin would be required to wear chains on their legs to participate in races and calling this "fair". Assuming this were a free country, the "land of opportunity" how is your setting the bar higher for certain races in order to come here and participate in a free society not the same kind of racism?

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Post 262

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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Trun, you'll never get it. Replies to you are a waste of time. But there may be others who don't see exactly where the flaws in your agruments lie.

(As an aside: I'm surprised that anyone would sanction what you wrote. I think it's more likely to be someone that hates me than agrees with you. Or, maybe that is just me... I'd rather see someone in the Hate Wolfer Club, than another racist on RoR.)

You have claimed to be an Objectivist yet you don't appear to know that Objectivists don't agree that you can't make an ought out of an is. It IS the facts of reality that give rise to, and validate judgments of universal values. This makes your little discussion of normative vs descriptive of no interest as an argument in favor of your racial claims. And, it wouldn't apply anyway since what you alleged to be nothing more than a "descriptive" statement contained a "normative" judgement - unless, for example, you think the difference between high and low crime has no relation to what is good. When you state that no set of members of a given race have the potential to live together without commiting large numbers of crimes there is no way that anyone can process that but as an ugly moral slur leveled at people because of their race (which you try to smuggle into people's minds by dressing it up as an allegedly value-free, purely descriptive statement that's really just racist psuedo-science).

You obviously equate thinking and sprinting as the same - two physiological exercises. This is what you are saying: The black race inherits a different muscle cells (giving the potential for superior sprinting ability), and it inherits a moral gene (which limits the ability to choose to obey the law). You may weasle-word about that, but I think most people can see the stark differenence between that which comes from an individual exercising choice, and that which is a genetic expression of a physiological trait.

That is the reality you are purposely choosing to ignore in order to continue to brand members of an entire race as morally deficient. It doesn't matter how much you try to dress yourself up as a makebelieve advocate of science, you are just a racist manipulating flawed statistics and denying that blacks exercise choice.

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Post 263

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 11:57amSanction this postReply
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Steve wrote, "Trun claims that blacks don't have the potential to build well-functioning, productive, low-crime, property-respecting free-market societies.

How racist is that!"


Trun replied,
Crying "racist!" is your crutch whenever you don't have an argument other than proposing that people can transcend.

Notice my "racist!" statement was not even normative, but rather descriptive. Either it's true or false. Processing the statement requires an assessment of its correspondence with reality.

Try this one: Europeans don't have the same potential to become gold medalists in sprinting as Africans. Crying "racist!" won't help you determine whether it's true or false. Evidence will:
There is a crucial difference between sprinting ability and the ability to grasp and apply moral principles. My ability to sprint as well as an Olympic athlete is beyond my volitional control. My ability to grasp and apply moral principles, including the principle of individual rights, is not. Both I and the Olympic athlete have the same capacity to learn these principles and apply them within a social context.

The high crime rate among blacks is due to bad beliefs and attitudes, not to an innate inability to behave morally or to respect the rights of others. If it were due to the latter, then you couldn't say that they "ought" to refrain from criminal behavior -- that they "ought" to respect the rights of others. You couldn't blame them for bad behavior any more than you could blame me for being a bad sprinter.


Post 264

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, in his last post, wrote the same thing I'd already written. But, as is very often the case, he said it better :-)

Post 265

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

The disturbing thing is that that is not because he has a higher IQ! I'm guessing from my extensive interaction with you that your IQ is pretty darn high (~ 120-160), but Bill has readily admitted to having only a relatively modest IQ (< 110). So this is another case (like the one I mentioned in post 257) where having a lower IQ is better than having a higher one -- or, at the very least, having a lower IQ is correlated with superior real-life outcomes (whether it be national communist outcomes or, in this case, really nailing a philosophical issue).

:-)

Ed

p.s., Please don't take offense to me guessing that your IQ is really high. I did not mean it as an insult. It's just my impression after extensive interaction, that's all.


Post 266

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 4:02pmSanction this postReply
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 ... but Bill has readily admitted to having only a relatively modest IQ (< 110).

I don't for a minute think that Bill's IQ is less that 110, in fact, I don't think that any of the regular posters on this forum have IQs of less than 120. Bill's opinion of his score may be because of flawed testing. I would encourage him to get reassessed. As for me, I love crossword puzzles and IQ tests, especially those with no time limit. Knowing that there is a solution to an intractable problem, and finally finding it, is such an  endorphin rush and it matters not that it may have no financial or practical implications. If you don't pay for the results the ranking is useless. There are sites that just want to massage your ego to get you to buy one product or another.

Here are some legitimate tests:

9I6

Sigma Society

The Titan Test

Beware. These are addictive and time consuming.

Sam


Post 267

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 4:19pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

No offense taken - certainly not for would be taken as a compliment. In that context, I'll just say, "Thanks"
-------------

But, again, I'll say that I don't believe the IQ is a good standard for anything we really want to measure. Certainly not for intelligence. It is the worst kind of measure, because it purports to measure intelligence, and because it measures certain mental features that are slightly related to intelligence. That gives it a creditbility it shouldn't have.
-------------

If real intelligence (not IQ) has to do with the juggling of abstractions by arranging and choosing amoung alternatives even when under various emotional and/or social pressures while staying focused on exercising logic and critical thinking as the method in making those choices and if it included the creative exercise of imagination to structure the abstractions we choose from.... then whatever you called a measurement of that kind of intelligence, Bill would score very high - it wouldn't be any piddly 110. (And even with the very low regard in which I hold the IQ tests, I would say that Bill would score far, far above that unless he has some test-taking quirk - which would show IQ testing to be even more unrepresentative of intelligence.)

If you were going to define intelligence, what would you include as key criteria in the exercise of functional intelligence? That is the actual applied intelligence - that which generates the final decisions on the actions chosen or avoided? (Thus eliminating the extremely bright, yet stupid, people we often see in universities that spin out theories so far removed from reality that no one would ever act on them.)

We are complex creatures that choose, but only within a context of existing knowledge, understood and observed principles and values, established character traits, emotions, background feelings, moods, and the whole of being a psychological creature, and with an understanding of the external world as it faces us when we choose - which is a nearly constant exercise. And, we are all in a continuing state of personal development and all of the context mentioned above is continually changing. Ed, from that perspective what is the measure of the realizable capacity to grasp what is important, to abstract the best way to integrate it with all that context, to separate out emotions from logic, and to form conclusions and to act in the way that is most consistent with a goal of long-term flourishing?
-----------------

Remember back to the specifics of whichever IQ test you took and tell me if it even begins to measure any of what I've mentioned?
------------------

Post 268

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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[deleted double post]

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/08, 4:55pm)


Post 269

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 4:54pmSanction this postReply
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Sam,
I don't for a minute think that Bill's IQ is less that 110 ... Bill's opinion of his score may be because of flawed testing.
Sam, you are going to have to forgive me, as I am about to call you onto the carpet. Do you remember that time that I said that I was done with "the monster of we" and then, in the next breath, I stated that a short-term goal of mine was to read "We the Living"? You got me for that. You got me good on that one. But now ... it's payback time.

:-)

You see, what you are simultaneously saying is (or are) these two things [note: presented with the operation assumption that high IQ = being smart]:

Bill is damn smart.
Bill is dead wrong about how smart he is.

Put another way, you are saying that Bill isn't smart enough to really and factually know how smart he is. That while being real smart, he has also been duped into a low opinion of his IQ.

:-)

Ed


Post 270

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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Steve wrote,
Bill, in his last post, wrote the same thing I'd already written. But, as is very often the case, he said it better :-)
Oh, come on, Steve! It was said differently, but I wouldn't say "better." You're one of the best writers on the forum.

Ed said
Bill has readily admitted to having only a relatively modest IQ (< 110).
Ahem! Less than 110? Now, Ed, I don't recall ever saying that! But I'm also not going to let you test me either! It might be so low that if Brad were to find out, he'd want to have me sterilized. On second thought, maybe I should get tested, because I understand that he's willing to pay people to be sterilized, and I could certainly use the money.

Before I get tested, just what kind of compensation are we talking about, Brad?


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Post 271

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 6:07pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,
If you were going to define intelligence, what would you include as key criteria in the exercise of functional intelligence? That is the actual applied intelligence - that which generates the final decisions on the actions chosen or avoided?

... what is the measure of the realizable capacity to grasp what is important, to abstract the best way to integrate it with all that context, to separate out emotions from logic, and to form conclusions and to act in the way that is most consistent with a goal of long-term flourishing?

 
Remember back to the specifics of whichever IQ test you took and tell me if it even begins to measure any of what I've mentioned?
Great points. There's very little in there that I can ... [who am I kidding?] ... there's nothing in there that I can disagree with. In his book on how to get intelligence, Nisbett himself defers to someone else in order to define it (p. 4):
[Intelligence] ... involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. ... capability for comprehending our surroundings--"catching on," "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do.
--Linda Gottfredson

Nisbett continues:
A substantial majority of experts also believe that memory and mental speed are part of intelligence, and a bare majority include in their definition general knowledge and creativity as well.
Nisbett continues to continue:
Developmental psychologist Robert Sternberg has studied what laypeople in a large number of cultures think should be counted as intelligence. He finds that a good many people include social characteristics, such as ability to understand and empathize with other people, as aspects of intelligence.
And the continuance doesn't stop there:
Fluid intelligence is exercised via the operation of the so-called executive functions. These include "working memory," "attentional control," and "inhibitory control." ... [Crystallized intelligence] is the store of information that you have about the nature of the world and the learned procedures that help you make inferences about it.
And, just when you thought that that is pretty much enough of what you should really have to say about intelligence (because intelligence is thus far already outlined as being "sufficiently" complex), there's even more -- where Nisbett comes surprisingly close to your rough outline of the complexity of intelligence as a concept:
IQ tests tend to measure what has been called "analytic" intelligence as distinct from "practical" intelligence. Analytic problems typically have been constructed by other people; are clearly defined; have all the information necessary to solve them embedded in their description; have only one right answer; usually can be reached only by one particular strategy; are often not closely related to everyday experience; and are not particularly interesting in their own right. These can be contrasted with "practical" problems, which require recognition that there is something to be solved; are usually not well defined; typically require seeking out information relevant to their solution; have several different possible solutions; are often embedded in everyday experience and require such experience for their solution; and engage--and usually require--intrinsic motivation.
...
Sternberg also writes about a third type of intelligence, which he calls "creative" intelligence. This is the ability to create, invent, or imagine something.
Like I said, pretty close to your outline of intelligence, huh?

:-)

Here's a rough "recap" of, or about, the mix of ingredients that makes up human intelligence:

=========================================
-it affords you with the power to see what's important
-it affords you with the power to hold context
-it affords you with the power to integrate
-it affords you with the power to delineate emotions from logic
-it affords you with the power to envision what is in your best and most long-term self-interest
-it affords you with the power to see the connection between what it is that you do right know (how you act) and the eventual arrival at that long-term goal
-it affords you with the power to reason
-it affords you with the power to plan
-it affords you with the power to solve problems
-it affords you with the power to think abstractly
-it affords you with the power to comprehend complex ideas
-it affords you with the power to learn quickly from experience
-it affords you with the power to comprehend your surroundings***
-it affords you with the power to be creative, to invent, or to imagine things
-it affords you with the power to understand, and possibly even to empathize with, other people
-it affords you with the power to maintain a solid "working memory"
-it affords you with the power to maintain robust "attentional control"
-it affords you with the power to maintain sufficient "inhibitory control"
-it affords you with the power to store vast amounts of information about the nature of the world
-it affords you with the power to master procedures that allow you to make inferences about the world
-it affords you with the power to analyze universal or symbolic relationships
-it affords you with the power to recognize that there is a problem to be solved (what Herman Cain refers to as "working on the right problem")
-it affords you with the power to define poorly-defined issues or problems
-it affords you with the power to find additional information relevant to the solution of a problem
-it affords you with the power to generate multiple solutions to many if not most problems
-it affords you with the power to utilize everyday experience for the identification of, and the solution to, problems
-it affords you with the power to muster inward motivation to solve difficult problems that are, in their own right, important
=========================================

***Of particular note is the lab-measured IQ of Kalahari Bushmen. Of anybody on the planet, it can be argued that no one comprehends their surroundings as well as does a Kalahari Bushman. Anyone who has seen the movie: "The Gods Must Be Crazy" has to admit to being somewhat shocked by how much these small-stature plains-dwellers comprehend every single, minute, flippant, spurious detail around them. Yet their IQ scores (54) are exceptionally low. A take-away message here is that IQ tests do not measure this aspect of intelligence -- the ability to comprehend your surroundings.

Ed


Post 272

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,
It might be so low that if Brad were to find out, he'd want to have me sterilized. On second thought, maybe I should get tested, because I understand that he's willing to pay people to be sterilized, and I could certainly use the money.
I almost fell off of my chair when I read that (from laughing so hard)!

:-)

Good stuff, man. Good stuff.

Ed


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Post 273

Sunday, July 8, 2012 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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MEMORY AND SPEED OF MENTAL FUNCTIONS
...memory and mental speed are part of intelligence...
I'm not that comfortable with Nisbett's experts on this. When I was younger, my mind was much faster, and my memory was somewhat better, but I was NOT as intelligent as I am today.

That's partially because intelligence in action has a speed and uses some memory, but they aren't the intelligence. Also, although fast speed and extensive memory are good things, there decline or lower amounts can be augmented by other approaches - worked around. The person who struggles, and takes twice as long to get to a the correct conclusion is none-the-less 100% more intelligent (in that instant) than a fellow with a great memory who rapidly leaps to the wrong conclusion.

[As a side note, I suspect that many people would show declining IQ scores (once adjusted for increasing test-taking skills), as they grow more intelligent over the decades.]
------------

CREATIVITY IS A REQUIRED PART OF INTELLIGENCE

One of the quotes mentions "creative" intelligence. That is of major importance because what we do, day-in and day-out,is creating "what if" questions - something that may have never existed before (at least in our minds) - "What if I were open to changing careers?" "What if I took Main street instead of First Avenue to get to work?" "What if that argument against my position is right?" "What is the difference between moral codes when they first came into being historically and now?" I think that is what we do most of the time - we create a question that arises out of our purposes and interests and then we work at answering it.
------------

WORKING MEMORY AND FOCUS

Nesbit's experts mention two key components of intelligence that I agree with:
"working memory," "attentional control,"
Working Memory:
'Working memory' is a fairly technical term and different theorists have different definitions. It is sometimes referred to metaphorically as a 'place' where data is held to be worked on - like a work bench. It is also a way of describing mental acts that are a part of reasoning. Some psychologists call the primary activity that goes on in working memory as 'chunking' where we combine a number of things into a more general category so that we can juggle more things in our mind (we have a limit on the number of units we can hold in focus at one moment, but not so much of a limit on our creativity in integrating two or more units into one abstraction).

Here is my favorite example of working memory. Imagine that I asked you to tell me, approximately, how high off the ground your hand would be, if you raised it above your head as high as you could while sitting on a camel. Stop for just a second or two and try to figure that out and pay attention to how you go about the process. (Can't use anything but your mind - no paper, pencil, photos, etc.)

How would you solve this? You might try to remember a picture of a camel with a person standing next it to estimate the height of the camel's back. Then you might take your height and subtract your inseam measurement from it. Then add what is the distance from your seat to the top of your head to the estimated height of the camels back. Then estimate the height of your hand above your head and add that. There are many different definitions of working memory, but I'd say it is the capacity to form mental relations between elements, or to grasp relations in given information. It is a work bench, or assembly line, where we engage in purposeful chains of integration and abstractions. Research I've seen is very simplistic in its attempts to measure working memory. They have no problem identifying different capacities in the number of units, or the number of relationships that we can hold, but they don't grasp that people can persist and find work arounds that let them achieve greater results despite lower unit capacities.

Attentional Control (aka Focus)
From Wikipedia: "In cognitive neuroscience, attentional control refers to individuals' capacity to choose what they pay attention to and what they ignore." This is focus but think of it as also as will power applied to focus - a kind of intensity and persistence of focus. It will be fought by other contending influences (weariness, denial, repression, avoidance triggers, etc.) A person of lower IQ can easily come up with better mental work if they are strongly motivated to focus intensely. Focus is also a choice on what kind of focus is approriate. You don't choose to bring a sharp, logical reasoning type of mental focus to making love. There are softer types of focus, there are tighter types of focus, focusing on being open to anything new, listen now and think afterwards type of focus, etc. This is volition - this is the person being a first cause in his life, again and again. This is a human capacity, but it is also a skill that is develops or declines, and it exists as a collection of mental habits at any moment. It is always in contention with competing mental entities - like emotions, habits of denial, etc.
--------------

INTELLIGENCE IS A CHOICE AND CAN SELF-IMPROVE

And here is a component of Intelligence you might not find anywhere else: It has a self-correcting aspect. If time begins to take away a man's memory, he can recognize this and find techniques and external tools to retain the same resulting functional intelligence. This is about focus on results, creating mental techniques, and persisting. But that is a choice that has to be made, and paid for with effort and will have limits based upon the good habits and character in this area that has already been created.
----------------

Ed, I like your list of ingredients that make up human intelligence. That's a good list.




Post 274

Monday, July 9, 2012 - 5:31amSanction this postReply
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You can choose to be neutral about whether Western, European peoples continue to dwindle in numbers and get replaced by rapidly reproducing and migrating Africans and Muslims.

1] Reproduce more. (But I got to tell you, you are not increasing your chances with these arguments.)

2] Seize power, and force "migrating Africans and Muslims" who desire to do so to either migrate less or reproduce less. (Ditto.)

"Western European peoples" don't get to both enjoy a relatively child-less and conflict-free lifestyle -and- dictate to others how to live their lives. They just don't.

It is like you are clinging to a worldview where "Western European peoples" are Emperor of All Races and Lifestyles, and are railing at a world that is saying "Oh yeah? Prove it." For about 15 minutes, modernity thought that history had finally ended, and we'd all reached modernity, some earlier than others.

Not so fast.

There were centuries of bloody tribal warfare, of flight from the tribe to freedom. It wasn't all reason and debate and polite or even merely heated argument, by far.

At the foundation of that leisurely pursuit was nut busting time, paid for by all who came before us.

The price of freedom is never fully paid. Never.

And never mind external immigration threats, America is neck-deep in a now internal struggle for freedom.



Post 275

Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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Note:

In post 247 and 248, I provided a formula for estimating the weight of genetic factors regarding the outcome of IQ level, from data on twins studies. An earlier version of this formula -- one that did not include non-additive genetic factors -- is called Falconer's Formula.

The new and improved formula, the one I provided -- [(A+B) - (A/2 + B/4)] -- doesn't yet have a name.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/15, 7:31am)


Post 276

Sunday, July 15, 2012 - 12:12pmSanction this postReply
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I'm almost ready to let this sleeping dog lie, but in post 254, Brad remarked:

Nisbett's book was examined carefully and discredited thoroughly in "Race and IQ: A Theory-Based Review of the Research in Richard Nisbett’s Intelligence and How to Get It"
But a thorough discreditation would not involve:


1) a large concession to your intellectual opponent (from your previous position)
2) continued misinterpretation of data
3) overt misrepresentation of your intellectual opponent

I've taken a little bit of time to view the .pdf file Brad offered in post 254, and I dare say that J. Phillipe Rushton and Arthur Jensen are guilty of the 3 transgressions listed above.

1) Jensen was one of the earliest "strong hereditarians" with regard to the causal factors that create someone's performance on an IQ test. Four decades ago, he said IQ was 75% genetic. As far as I can tell, he had not moved from that position for the remainder of the 20th Century (and even into the beginning of the 21st Century). But now, in a piece supposedly discrediting Richard E. Nisbett's book, Intelligence and How to Get It, all of a sudden that high number for heritability has dropped from 75% down to 50%. That, to me, appears to be a large concession. Now, large concessions aren't -- in themselves -- bad things. They are often proof of mature or refined thinking. But one thing that can make a large concession bad, is when it is done during a discreditation (when you are supposedly refuting someone else's rival position).

Let's imagine an example. Let's say that Harry and Sally are arguing. Harry says that men -- using spatial reasoning skills -- can shoot moving objects (e.g., as when hunting) 140 times better than women can because men have an extra 140 grams of brain tissue over-and-above what women have. Sally counter-argues that you can't look at the 140-gram difference in mean brain weights between men and women and then say that each and every gram-increase causes another full multiplier in hunting superiority. She says that it is just simply not the case that men are 140 times better at hunting than women. Then Harry moves into his position to attempt to discredit her:

You can't argue against my theory that extra brain matter causes improved hunting skills.
Did you notice that? Did you notice that shift? First, Harry thought he had it all worked out, that for every extra gram of brain tissue, that men would -- additively -- become 100% better at hunting. But then, just when he is about to discredit Sally, all of a sudden his position is watered-down to the point of almost being irrelevant. That's a rhetorical transgression. I'm not sure if this rhetorical tactic has a name, but I think a good one might be: reverse straw man. Instead of casting your opponent's argument into something so absurd that it can be easily knocked down, it involves casting your position differently, so that it is no longer as logically unsupportable as it used to be (and, in the case of Jensen's position that IQ is 75% genetic, as it "used to be" for literally decades).

That's transgression #1.

2) In a graph depicting the estimated proportions of the total IQ variance attributable to genetic and environmental effects (Fig. 4, p. 19), Rushton and Jensen present data where genetic effects increase and where shared environmental effects drop to zero as people surpass age 20. This is a conceptual mistake. First of all, it only includes additive genetic effects while omitting non-additive effects (which both have to be held together, or integrated, during any correct interpretation of data), and therefore overestimates the overall genetic effect. Secondly, shared environmental effects are firstly environmental effects and only secondly are they shared. Yet Rushton and Jensen treat them as primarily things experienced during a shared process and only then -- as a mere artifact of this misconceptualization -- does it then appear to (indeed, it must appear to) approach zero as people move out of a shared environment with one another.

Let's imagine an example. Billy and Johnny are raised by Trudy and Bob Remington. They are brothers. In the shared environment that is their household growing up, they are exposed to high amounts of dietary fish. The Remingtons are peso-vegetarians ("fish" vegetarians) and they choose to raise their 2 sons that way, giving their sons copious amounts of fish for protein (indeed, as the primary source of protein). This shared fact of the matter -- that both sons eat a lot of fish -- affects IQ scores. Now, according to Rushton and Jensen, when the sons grow up and leave the home, they will no longer share this environmental factor. Why? Well, because they aren't in the same house anymore. Under this reasoning, if they don't share their meals at a common dinner table at a common time, then the factor drops out of the IQ equation. But is that the reality?

No.

What is infinitely more likely to happen here is that both of the sons do continue to eat some fish -- in some form or fashion -- even after leaving the home and going off to live separately. In other words, that factor that was a part of a shared environment growing up remains a relevant factor even outside of the original, shared environment. At the very least, as a factor influencing IQ, it does not drop all the way down to zero as Rushton and Jensen propose in Fig. 4.

That's transgression #2.

3) On page 31 of the document, Rushton and Jensen say this:
in [Nisbetts's] discussion of the adoption and heritability studies of young children showing how malleable IQ can be, he neglected to inform his readers that these effects are known to dissipate by late adolescence
But that is a gross misrepresentation. In fact, Nisbett was very careful to make mention of how the adoption- (i.e., environment-) driven malleability of IQ dissipates with age. The first mention of heritability of IQ in adoption is mentioned in the index, starting at page 23 in the book. Just 2 pages later, at page 25, the careful mention of how environmental malleability seems to dissipate with age proceeds as follows:
Jensen and other strong hereditarians, however, would not accept a figure for between-family environmental effects that is as high as .20 to .26. This is because when people older than those in the studies summarized in Table 2.1, who are mostly children, are examined, the correlations drop dramatically--sometimes to as low as zero. This is true, for example, for unrelated children brought up in the same household. When they are adults the correlations run in the vicinity of .05 or less. The usual explanation given for this weak effect on adults is that as people grow older, they select their own environments, and their preference for one environment versus another is largely influenced by genetics. The importance of the early environment, never all that great to begin with, drops way off.
And, if that is not enough, Nisbett repeats the point 5 pages later on page 30:
Stoolmiller calculated that if you correct for this restriction of environmental range, as much as 50 percent of the variation in intelligence could be due to differences between family environments. Since we know that within-family variation also makes an important contribution to IQ, this would mean that most of the variation in IQ is due to the environment. (These numbers would hold, though, only for children. We know that heritability goes up with age to some degree, so Stoolmiller's estimate for the contribution of between-family differences has to be lowered by some unknown amount.)
Now, a counter-argument from Rushton and Jensen might be that there is "some place" somewhere later on in the book where Nisbett neglected to re-"inform readers that these effects are known to dissipate by late adolescence" but that is dropping the context. The context is already set. The cat is already out of the bag. Nisbett started off the conversation by admitting that environment effects and malleability dissipate with age. So, if at some later time he fails to exercise the unrelenting diligence to go ahead and repeat that very same point -- each and every time he returns to make mention of some or another adoption study, or some or another heritability study, or some or another malleability study -- if Nisbett fails to repeat himself ad nauseum, then he should not be held accountable for that. Holding someone accountable to repeat themselves, and to go on repeating themselves -- as if you somehow cannot remember how they began by stating the limitations in the first place -- is just flat-out wrong.

That's transgression #3.

So Brad is wrong in that the work performed by Rushton and Jensen does not amount to what it is that can be rightfully referred to as careful, thorough, and discrediting.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/15, 12:17pm)


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Post 277

Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 9:26pmSanction this postReply
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I have been following this conversation and it is very interesting. I have gone down the Human Bio-Diversity / Race-Realism bunny hole and I have been trying to reconcile that with Objectivism / Minarchist libertarianism. So I have thought about this subject and at one point was somewhat seduced by the racialists.

Brad Turn sounds like he is a Rand influenced Larry Auster (big time internet racial Conservative) or a Rand influenced Steve Sailer (originator of the HBD movement). Race Realism or Racial Conservatism is an up and coming movement with a sizable internet presence. I think Objectivism should take notice of it because it might grow large enough to vie for control of the American Right (shudder).

Turn's arguments are familiar to me as I have read them now for four years from Christian White Nationalists (Larry Auster) and from secular Materialist Racialists (Steve Sailer and the the army of HBD Bloggers, ie Roissy, 1std, etc). Here are the common arguments:

* Race determines culture
* Races are not fungible
* inter-racial mixing lowers national IQ and threatens the survival of the West
* Blacks and Hispanics have lower civilizational abilities
* Blacks and Hispanics are innately more impulsive, less moral and more prone to crime.
* Immigration should be race conscious
* libertarianism is suicidal and thus flawed because it is not race aware
* libertarianism / Objectivism are merely different versions of blank slate liberalism.
* Races should be isolated in their own polities and not inter-related
* Diversity + Proximity = War

I have been reading this stuff for a while now. I don't have a definite view on the science. I have seen good arguments for hereditary influence on IQ, temperament, sexual selection strategies, and crime. I have also read some good arguments showing limitations or contradictions in the racialist arguments.

But here is where I come out. If you agree with Rand's central point about politics - that rights are moral principles that stem from a human's conceptual faculty, ie volition, and not the degree of intellectual capacity then you must believe in individual rights. The foundation of the Objectivist politics is the Non-Initiation-of-Physical-Force (although it is not an axiom and needs to be philosophically validated). Admittedly that can be hard to apply in some contexts but all of the major pathologies of the Euro-American world are due to violations of the NIOF.

You do not need race-realism to solve the problems of the West! For example:

* All welfare programs should be abolished on moral grounds. You don't need racialism for that.
* All preventative laws and regulations should be abolished on moral grounds. You don't need racialism for that.
* All anti-discriminatory and affirmative action laws should be abolished on moral grounds. You don't need racialism for that.
* All central banking and monetary interventions should be abolished on moral grounds. You don't need racialism for that.
* All labor interventionist laws (ie minimum wage) should be abolished on moral grounds. You don't need racialism for that.
* All victimless crime laws should be abolished on moral grounds. You don't need racialism for that.
* Public education and tax financed subsidies for college admissions should be abolished on moral grounds. You don't need racialism for that.

Etc, etc, etc...

What does racialism add to the moral / political debate? NOTHING. If the NOIF were upheld, there would be none of the problems we face now:

* no inner cities
* no drug gangs
* no welfare dependent blacks
* no welfare dependent anyone
* no phenomenon of mass black crime
* no black or Hispanic underclass
* no permanently unemployed ethnic underclass
* immigrants would move into a laissez faire society and there would be no welfare state for them to leech off of. They would out of necessity have to be productive and PEACEFUL citizens or they would be imprisoned or deported.

Would there be equality of wealth and accomplishments? No. It very well might be that blacks and Hispanics would be at the bottom of the economic ladder. BUT THAT FUCKING LADDER WOULD BE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE GREATER THAN TODAY! Low class in such a society would probably equate to upper middle class today. Everyone's wealth levels would be raised. It is not the case that blacks would be some feral, poor underclass without the welfare state and gov't subsidizations of black employment. IT IS THE GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE WHICH HAS CREATED THE FERAL BLACK UNDERCLASS!

I am not going to tell science what its conclusions should be and I am prepared for the possibility that blacks and Hispanics are less intelligent at the population level. But that fact if it proves true will add nothing to the political case for Objectivist minarchy. Rights are based on volition not population genetics.

Are there issues with immigration? Yes, especially when it comes to Islam where I do think that it can be argued on Objectivist grounds that allowing Muslim populations in free countries is dangerous. But that is based on ideology not race; ie on ideas not political biologism which is what racialism is.

As for the future of the white race or any race. Look I admit, I'm a white guy and I really only get turned on by white women. But the future racial composition of the human race is a HISTORICAL PHENOMENON which is outside the control of politics and morality. Whatever future generations of mankind end up looking like is not something that can be regulated by politics. It is a collective decision of free peoples. Fuck, when we get genetic engineering (which we would in short order under laissez faire) who the hell knows what mankind will look like? Ever read 'The Forever War'?

What governments should do is protect rights. Every problem Brad Turn has raised can BE SOLVED BY THE OBJECTIVIST POLITICS. NO RACIALISM IS NECESSARY. Abolish initiatory force and the pathologies of the black (and to a lesser extent the Hispanic) community will no longer exist.

Objectivist philosophy is the answer not race realism and political biologism.

We need more Ayn Rand inspired thinking and less Larry Austerism. Race realism Must lead to political collectivism and statism. Turn has proved that over and over in this thread.


Post 278

Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 10:26pmSanction this postReply
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Its insulting to suggest Rand "influenced" these racist theories. What are you talking about?

Post 279

Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 11:18pmSanction this postReply
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"Its insulting to suggest Rand "influenced" these racist theories. What are you talking about?"

I didn't say that Rand influenced the racialist theories but that a racialist like Turn claims to be influenced in part by Rand. He is after all arguing that his racialism is the logical application of Rand's epistemology and to deny that is rationalism.

He is the first racialist that I have seen that claims to be influenced by Objectivism. Most racialists view Objectivism as "blank slate utopian liberalism".

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