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Saturday, April 7, 2012 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
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Analyzing a self-described Objectivist's subjective opinions on morality.  Subjective normative evaluations may be rational or
irrational.  But they can be neither true nor false objectively.

[Part 1]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJnDbiSFdMQ

[Part 2]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaJ4rwbXWL0




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Post 1

Sunday, April 8, 2012 - 11:35pmSanction this postReply
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Brad,

I listened to your first video long enough to see that you don't have a good grasp of the Objectivist ethics or of the concept of objectivity as it applies to the Objectivist ethics. But I'm not going to reply to the comments you make in a video, when you already have a forum to express your ideas on RoR. If you want feedback on your ideas, then write an actual post presenting your arguments and conclusions, so that list members can address them. That's the function of a philosophical forum like RoR. It isn't just a platform for you to advertise your YouTube videos.

Post 2

Monday, April 9, 2012 - 12:39amSanction this postReply
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"Objectivity" means deriving conclusions rationally from evidence in reality.  "Being objective" may refer to that.  But to say something "is objective" designates that it is external to the mind, at least in conventional philosophical usage, as in when contrasted with something being "subjective." 

A rock is objective.  The pain it causes when it hits you on the head is subjective.  The evaluation that the person who threw the rock at you is immoral is subjective, even if objectivity is exercised in coming to the evaluation.


Post 3

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 - 9:38pmSanction this postReply
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Really, is this all you have to say? You said a lot more in your video. Aren't you interested in writing it out, so that we can address it?

At any rate, in your brief post you say
"Objectivity" means deriving conclusions rationally from evidence in reality.
Then you say,
The evaluation that [a] person who threw [a] rock at you is immoral is subjective, even if objectivity is exercised in coming to the evaluation.
So the reasoning is objective, but the conclusion is subjective? Doesn't that sound a little strange to you?

Post 4

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 - 10:42pmSanction this postReply
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Really, is this all you have to say? You said a lot more in your video. Aren't you interested in writing it out, so that we can address it?

No.  While it would be nice to have a transcription of the video so
that I could paste philosophically relevant portions of it here, I'm
not interested in undertaking that effort.

So the reasoning is objective, but the conclusion is subjective? Doesn't that sound a little strange to you?


It sounds strange because you transmogrified "objectivity" in my
sentence into "is objective" in yours while dropping the conceptual
distinction I made between the two. 

Reasoning is subjective metaphysically, just like anything else done by
the mind.  There is no "rational" or "moral" independent of the mind. 
Rightness and wrongness aren't inherent in objects or actions or
predetermined by an external consciousness.  Therefore, objective
morality does not exist metaphysically.  If objective morality exists
epistemologically, if moral statements have truth value, then they
would be falsifiable and provable.  But while you can point to an
objective standard of value, you can't prove that it ought to be
adopted.  As Rand acknowledged, her moral principles all follow from the
assumption that one makes the choice to value life.  Absent that
choice, morality isn't applicable.  So logically, it's incoherent to
say that one ought to value life.  The decision to value life precedes 
morality.


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Post 5

Saturday, July 7, 2012 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
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I missed this.

Back in April, Brad wrote:
If objective morality exists epistemologically, if moral statements have truth value, then they would be falsifiable and provable. But while you can point to an objective standard of value, you can't prove that it ought to be adopted. As Rand acknowledged, her moral principles all follow from the assumption that one makes the choice to value life. Absent that choice, morality isn't applicable. So logically, it's incoherent to say that one ought to value life. The decision to value life precedes morality.
These statements need to be unpacked. First, the statement "if moral statements have truth value, then they would be falsifiable and provable."

Well, moral statements do have truth value, and they are falsifiable or provable. If no moral statements were provable, there would be no such thing as a science of ethics and no moral principles that are rationally demonstrable and therefore deserve to be followed. There would be no such thing as rights or the obligation to respect them. Nor would there be a political system that is incumbent upon man to adopt and defend.

Second, consider the statement: "But while you can point to an objective standard of value, you can't prove that it ought to be adopted."

Oh, yes you can, but the "ought" in this case is conditional. One "ought" to adopt an objective standard of value (i.e., man's life qua man) if one's life is worth living -- if one values what life has to offer. It should be noted that all "oughts" are conditional. One ought to do X if and only if X is a means to Y (to something one values for its own sake, as an end in itself).

And finally, the statement: "As Rand acknowledged, her moral principles all follow from the assumption that one makes the choice to value life. Absent that choice, morality isn't applicable. So logically, it's incoherent to say that one ought to value life. The decision to value life precedes morality."

In a certain respect, that's true, but the word "choice" can be a bit misleading. People don't typically make a conscious "choice" to live in the same way that they choose, for example, to pursue a particular career. What Rand means by "choice" in this context is something more akin to "value." In her essay "Causality Versus Duty," she writes: "Reality confronts man with a great many 'musts,' but all of them are conditional: the formula of realistic necessity us: 'You must, if--' and the 'if' stands for man's choice: '--if you want to achieve a certain goal.'" (Philosophy Who Needs It, 118, 119), Observe that Rand equates "if you want to achieve a certain goal" with "if you choose to achieve a certain goal." For unless people have a good reason to commit suicide, they do want to live and do make that choice. Therefore, if you value your life -- if you want to achieve the values that life has to offer (which, with very rare exceptions, everyone does), then you ought to adhere to a standard of value that enables you to achieve that goal. You ought to adopt man's life qua man (the life proper to man) as your standard of value.


Post 6

Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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I think that it would be easier to communicate if we did not have the word "rights" at all. Its rhetorical form is a noun referring to an attribute, but I think its meaning is an adjective referring to a judgement, like "beauty". When we say he has rights, we don't actually mean he has anything, we mean it is right for him to be free of interference.

There is nothing subjective about such a statement. We are saying that IF we value a peaceful civilization, THEN we had better prohibit certain acts of interference. Such a statement refers to facts about objects (individuals) who will or will not act desirably depending on the rules they are coexisting under.

Objective refers to objects - their attributes and their actions. To be objective about the rules that we agree to live under is to recognize the nature of human objects. Our rhetoric takes the form of describing humans by saying that they have an attribute called rights. But our meaning is that because of their physical and mental attributes, it is right to prohibit certain kinds of interference with them.

Post 7

Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 5:16pmSanction this postReply
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John,

As I understand the term "rights," it does function as noun insofar as it refers to a justified claim against having one's freedom interfered with. You could say that one "has" or "possesses" such a claim.

Rand gives two definitions (descriptions?) of a right. She says that "a right is moral principle defining and sanctioning man's freedom of action in a social context," and that "rights are conditions of existence required by man's nature for his proper survival." In the first case, she is referring to the bridge between ethics and politics; rights imply a moral obligation on the part of others to honor and respect them. In the second case, she is referring to a right as a condition of freedom, which is indeed required for man's proper survival.


Post 8

Friday, July 13, 2012 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

There are many words whose form is noun and whose sense is verb. 'Claim' is another one. In the case of rights, that it is claimed has little to do with what is claimed. What is claimed is that freedom is right, and freedom is a negative idea, that one should be free FROM interference.

No matter the grammatical form, the claim of 'rights' is merely a statement about what action should not be interfered with by others.

Post 9

Friday, July 13, 2012 - 10:00amSanction this postReply
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John,

Okay, point taken. But I still think there is something special about the concept of rights. It is not just another moral imperative, although it is that. I have a 'right' or a 'claim' against being aggressed against also says that I am justified in using force to prevent or stop that aggression. In all other forms of immoral action, I cannot justifiably prevent or stop the action. So I think that the concept of 'a right' as something you "possess" is justified in contrast to other forms of immoral conduct for which it would not be.

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Post 10

Friday, July 13, 2012 - 2:07pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Well, no doubt there is something very special about the idea of rights. It is important to say under what circumstances one may use force "rightfully" in self-defense. My main point is that rights are not an attribute, but rather a moral judgement.

It is only an issue when people rhetorically wander off into the question of where 'rights' come from, god or nature, or government. Asking the question in that way causes confusion, I believe, and so I prefer to treat rights as an adjective. The more effective question isn't 'where do rights come from' or 'does man have rights', it is simply 'what is right'?

Post 11

Friday, July 13, 2012 - 2:21pmSanction this postReply
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My main point is that rights are not an attribute, but rather a moral judgement.
True enough. No argument there.

Post 12

Friday, July 13, 2012 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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Wait a minute! No argument?? Who are you and what have you done with Bill Dwyer?

Post 13

Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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Bill Dwyer is now being managed by a different handler.


Post 14

Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 9:54pmSanction this postReply
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Who was the first handler? And is the poor man happy?

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