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Post 0

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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Trolls and Spades

I am very much in favor of always calling a spade a spade, most
especially when it comes to important philosophical and life living
issues. The Internet community is an interesting one in this regard, a
great place to study group dynamics where one has the time to actively
analyze conversations, intents, trends, and personality. Because we can
read messages at our leisure, we can take the time to mull things over
and think about them before actually having to reply. This can be quite
useful.

A scourge of the Internet is what is termed 'trolls' or 'trolling' and
it generally refers to a person who for whatever reason, disrupts an
ongoing conversation with totally out of context arguments, insults, or
incredibly self serving whine fests. Often, they simply like to provoke
people for the sake of provoking them and nothing else.

In the years that I've been on the Internet I've seen many attempted
remedies for this ongoing problem of trolls. Many groups hope that if
everyone completely ignores the troll, the troll will go away. Some
groups moderate discussions and will expel a troll. Others rightly
challenge the troll, though often not as effectively or rationally as
should be done.

I've experienced all forms of 'troll control' as both list member and
list owner. I've tried ignoring them, but did not feel comfortable with
that choice. As list owner, I've simply banned trolls, and that was
satisfying because I was in control, but did little to actually deal
with the situation -- it was more like just putting off the problem for
another day.

On lists where I had no control, I've seen varying degrees of success
with active moderation though often my own perceptions brought questions
of why one member was banned as a troll while other similar posters were
not. Worse, at times, a person suspected of trolling was admonished
while an even bigger and more annoying troll was not. All in all, quite
unsatisfactory all around.

I've recently come to the conclusion that the best troll deterrent is
the rational attack on their ideas. Keeping the context of what they
have replied to, how they have replied, and contrasting it to the actual
discussion.

Why is important to face a troll in such a way?

Ignoring them only gives them a sense of having more power. Much as the
argument 'people just hate to be ignored and so they will go away' seems
sound, it isn't.

It is allowing the troller to live in their own fantasy world and to
bother others with that erroneous vision. If that is not attacked for
what it is, the troller will never learn just why he is hated and
denounced. He should know that! If enough people rationally attack him
for what he is, he will either go away or eventually learn the lesson
that others will not accept his abuse.

Trolling is very much a way that people abuse others. Often they are
themselves victims of abuse who have now made it their personal crusade
to heap as much misery and more suffering on the world as they perceive
themselves to have experienced. Their abuse of other posters is their
way of dealing with unresolved issues and should not be allowed.

Call a spade a spade, always. We do not have to accept the abusiveness
of trolls and they should suffer the consequences of their actions
rather than being ignored as the pitiful creatures they are. Ignoring
them will teach them nothing, and will only make themselves believe they
are not only correct, but _allowed_ to continue their abuse. They will
mistake our lack of interest as permission and acceptance of their right
to annoy and irritate us.

If this seems too much for those of us inclined to benevolence, think of it as 'tough love'. :)

Post 1

Saturday, November 9, 2002 - 3:02pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Joy!

To avoid appearing as a troll:) I am going to first tell you that I have enjoyed your article and agree with your assement of the nature of trolling. I do however dissent in one significant way. I don't think that you can first demonstrate how trolls dispay a contempt for reasoned argumentation, and then propose that we talk to them. If you know that fire burns, why would you stick your best copy of Atlas Shrugged in a fire? Or if you value pearls, why would you cast them to the swine? I know that you cannot always know when a troll is a troll, you might want to first engage them for a while. But then if they constantly avoid your arguments and use fallacious reasoning to counter yours, why would you want to waste your time? Is it not good enough to state one strong argument against them and move on to something more meaningful? Or is THAT what you are saying? :) So when we present our ONE strong argument, it should contain no questions or hints that we are offering them bate, right?

BTW: Notice how my comment to you includes questions and question marks:)

Post 2

Saturday, November 9, 2002 - 3:46pmSanction this postReply
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If everyone is rational on the board, then Joy's suggestion is good. Unfortunately, this is virtually never the case (unless you're lucky and found good forums).

Generally, you stand up to a troll for the benefit of the audience, not for his. If the troll is aggressive, then just provoke him briefly and let him be - his subsequent flames will discredit him fast.

Believe me, I have more than enough experience and have done all the mistakes to prove it.

Post 3

Saturday, November 9, 2002 - 4:17pmSanction this postReply
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Just keep arguing with the troll until the sun shines on him; then he'll turn to stone and cease to annoy people. >^..^<

Post 4

Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Matthew,

That might work well as a metaphor. Somehow our trolls prefer the late night schedule and I am currently overworked. Anyone up to relieve me on my schedule? Security needs a break, please sign up for Troll Patrol:)

Anthony

Post 5

Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 2:20amSanction this postReply
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Here's a slice from your 'private' yahoo forum:

It seems that someone left the alarm off at the SOLOHQ building, and
at precisely 7:33PM (ORST: Objective Reality Standard Time)a troll by
the name of Steve left a shit load of cognitive nihilism in a comment
box. We have submitted the vile evidence from a sample of his
excrement to the Office of Troll Patrol but we have not as yet
received confirmation of the results from the DNA testing. From the
smell of his flatulence, we know that this troll has an excessively
heavy protein diet that may be indicative of cannibalism. Samples of
his excrement include bits of postmodern philosophy, circular
reasoning, fallacious argumentation, intellectual snobbery, and bits
of yellow corn.

The trolls are gaining all kinds of access and Objectivism (pah!) is about to get an electronic stomping on. Perhaps the final straw was the sniffy way Herr Perigo dealt to his loyal 'imp' Ballin. Stay tuned

Post 6

Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 5:58amSanction this postReply
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Huh? What? There's a private SOLO Forum!? LOL! You've all been hiding it from me? Or do you mean the SOLO forum on yahoogroups which is available to anyone here via the click of a mouse?

We have been talking about Troll Myron on the public SOLOyahoo so are you suggesting that Myron and Steve are one and the same? Could it be? That would be too funny!

Now I just have to ask, how was the final straw something that happened prior to all this fun discussion going on? LOL!

And what does a disagreement between Linz and Matt B. have to do with any of this?

Hmmmm .... very very interesting.

Ze plot Hastings, she thickens now. Please to observe.

Monsieur Ghastly, permit me for a moment to ask a question. Of what concern should it be to you what happens between Monsieur Linz and Monsieur Ballin, eh? Perhaps your personal interest in private matters reveals a clue for us, eh?

*grin*

Besides, Linz is free to do as he wishes on his forums so complaining about it is rather useless. *grin* He is the ruling dictator (benevolent at times too!) around here and I for one like it that way. Believe me, he doesn't put a gun to anyone's head to make them stay.

You are quite welcome to leave if you don't like what's going on ...

Joy :)

Post 7

Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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*hefts his BFG-80386* Be wery wery quiet. I'm hunting twolls today.

Post all the gleaning from the SOLO forum archives and pro-collectivist tripe you like, ghoster. I do hope you have an asbestos trenchcoat, though.

Post 8

Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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Dear ghoster,

BOO! I don't believe in ghosts, so your evil intent bears no weight. Why don't you take your white sheet and fly away instead of trying to haunt us from the past digging up old dead bones. No one cares about your threats or your dead issues.

BTW thanks for beating me in posting that here. I was actually only just beginning to have fun, but it seems you like playing with other people's things.

"The trolls are gaining all kinds of access and Objectivism (pah!) is about to get an electronic stomping on."

OOOO! I'm shaking in my boots! The day of retribution is near...OOOO!

Post 9

Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 7:25pmSanction this postReply
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Also, I think it might be best if you delete my previous posts. Thanks.

Post 10

Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 7:26pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry, I was drunk. I withdraw and apologize for all the crap I uttered. I think it might be best if you delete my previous posts. Thanks.

Post 11

Friday, November 15, 2002 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
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Ghoster said,
"Sorry, I was drunk. I withdraw and apologize for all the crap I uttered. I think it might be best if you delete my previous posts. Thanks. "

No probs Ghoster, your post was as funny as it was sad - I think it should stay so that you can read it from time to time to remind yourself what you're like when your drunk. I'd say the post was fully indicative of your level of intellectual capacity and maturity. Well done son, pour yourself another beer.

A word of advice, get some counselling about your alcohol problem, you seem like a nasty drunk, and I can imagine you getting drunk and bashing the crap out of your wife or girlfriend, because her argument was circular or post-modern or something equally as serious.

As I said to another abusive poster here, if you wish to discuss or debate any of the points I have made in a reasonable manner I'd be more than happy to engage. Until that day, perhaps the Salvation Army might listen.

god bless
Steve

"If this is objectivism I'll take John Howard" (McKinlay., 2002)

Post 12

Monday, November 18, 2002 - 5:44pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Thank you for following the troll bate and showing up at the right spot. No better place to have it out!

SOLOHQ is a website committed to the promotion of reason and benevolence. SOLOHQ follows the philosophy of Ayn Rand and has declared a war on postmodernism and the evil imps that try to perpetuate irrationality (check out our "War Room"). When you try to argue Steve, you begin by stating that there is no objective reality. You post these things on a site that you know is dedicated to the defense of Objectivism and the fundamental axioms of existence identity and consciousness. Yet you constantly show up everywhere to announce that you are here. You say you want to discuss rationally. Then you invalidate the basis for rational discussion by denying the law of identity. You say that you believe in reality because you can see your hands in front of you, and then you proceed to contradict yourself in glaring stupidity by denying an objective reality. You do not see the circularity of your own arguments. You acuse us of having nothing at the base of our philosophy and somehow you believe that we could make it better? Isn't that the crap you said in the Reality Our Objective Benvolent Friend thread?

You say that Objectivism is a religion because it requires that one accept the existence of an objective reality. You equivocate between acceptance and faith not recognizing that faith does not lead to reason. Acceptance of the fundamentals of Objectivism merely creates the proper mental basis from which one can begin the process of philosophical explanation. That is not blind faith. You begin by a completely different method: scepticism. We know that, we are not interested in taking that route.

You know that Objectivists are not sceptics and you know that Objectivism is a philosophy and not a religion. You come to our website to proclaim that we are a religion, or that our rational epistemology and our objectivist metaphysics are nothing but a religion in disguise.

You still have the audacity to think that we are interested in discussing philosophy with you?

You say:

"if you wish to discuss or debate any of the points I have made in a reasonable manner I'd be more than happy to engage."

You want to discuss rationally and yet when you post you add a host of writers who you presumably have read. You want us to engage in a discussion with you about your preferred authors. You clutter our comment boxes with the names of modern philosophers and your comments read like a like a chain of rosaries. If what you want is for us to acknowledge that you have successfully countered Objectivism by offering clear arguments against the fundamentals, then you are not going to be satisfied.

Enough trolling Steve.

Post 13

Monday, November 18, 2002 - 9:10pmSanction this postReply
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Anthony,

I think you need to focus on the positive. The things you have in common with Steve.

For instance, as a skeptic, Steve admits he has no knowledge of reality. I think we can support him on that. Don't you?

Post 14

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 12:34amSanction this postReply
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LOL! Oh Joe, how right you are! I am certain we can anticipate a rebuttal from Steve claiming this commonality. I'd be satisfied with that little tiny admission on his part. To be sure we'll probably get a dissertation on the methodology of scepticism with a 20 page bibliography appended:)
What's the upshot? Steve gets an audience!

Post 15

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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I'd offer to lend you my clue-by-four, Anthony, but it looks like you have one of your own with which to whack trolls like Steve. Good work.

Post 16

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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Steve conradicts himself:

In a previous post you stated that Objectivism was a religion. Now you admit openly that it is a philosophy. maybe you will finally admit that you are trolling.

Have a nice day Steve, or as Rand used to say "Good bye and Good premises!"

Post 17

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 3:02pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, your expletives and attacks have gone far enough. To quote from the front page of the forum section:

"This forum is for Objectivists or people interested in Objectivism."

If your purpose is simply to attack Objectivism, then we are not interested in what you have to say. Frankly, you're not saying anything interesting or profound. You were humorous for a little while, but when you get rude, that's where I'll draw the line. I deleted your last three posts, and hope that you realize that you're just wasting everyone's time by posting here. If you want a place to attack Objectivism, may I suggest H.P.O on usenet? They have lot's of people like you there.

Post 18

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 8:24pmSanction this postReply
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Steve says, "But then I disagreed with your points of view so I guess that makes me a worthy subject to censorship, we wouldn't want to offend anyone would we."

No, Steve, you became a "worthy subject to censorship" when you started being rude. There are times and places for the use of the "Seven Dirty Words", but a discussion of philosophy is rarely one of them.

As for the question of censorship, kindly remember that SOLO HQ is private property and that you are (or were) a guest here. You do not own this site, you put not a minute's work into this site's code, and you sure as Chaos contribute not a dollar to the costs associated with running a website like SOLO HQ. This being the case, you have no rights here whatsoever, only whatever privileges the administrators give you. You may have the right to speak, but if you exercise that right here you may do so either on SOLO's terms, or elsewhere.

"A bunch of testosterone overdosed, adolescent, pimply faced boys, with a limited understanding of all but the basics of philosophy attempting to impress each other with terms and concepts you have almost no real idea about. Enjoy your private little wankers club. I expected more from you but I guess I was deluded all along - at least you all picked that up."

*yawn* Do you post on Kuro5hin.org often?

And you chatted to a friend of yours who teaches philosophy at the University of Adelaide? He says that objectivists "are crackpots; nobody takes them seriously"? I remember hearing a saying that goes somewhat like this: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." Is it possible that that saying applies to your friend in the Uni of Adelaide?

"god bless
I'll leave you all in peace."


You need the blessings of your demon more than any of us do, Steve. The Admin suggested Usenet as an appropriate forum for such as you. I also recommend Slashdot. Begone, troll.

Post 19

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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(singing) "When there's something strange, in the neighborhood, who ya' gonna' call? TROLLBUSTERS! When you try to fight, Nihilsm's plight, who can ya' call? TROLLBUSTERS! da dum da dum da dum da de da do dum et.al." :)

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