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Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 10:00amSanction this postReply
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The latest issue of The Open Society (the journal of the NZ Association of Rationalists & Humanists) has an article entitled "The three steps to humanist ethics", by Bill Cooke. The author attempts to define humanism and lists the three ethics as Science, Rationalism and Atheism. Under the Rationalism section he says:

"...how can humanists distinguish one [worldview] from another?... This is where rationalism comes in... it is rationality which empowers humanists to distinguish genuine science from psuedo-science... It is rationality which humanists need to make an ethical or intellectual judgement...

"So just as humanism and rationalism are absolutely inseparable, so are science and rationalism. Not the least reason for this is that we need science to guage for us the degree to which we rely on our reason. It is one of the stock jibes made about rationalists that they make reason into a god or otherwise give rationality considerably more authority than it would normally be able to justify...Reason, writes Donald Calne is 'simply and solely a tool, without any legitimate claim to moral content. It is a biological product fashioned for us by the process of evolution to help us survive in an inhospitable and unpredictable environment.' It is the close link between science and rationality that helps distinguish humanistic reationalists from Objectivists, those disciples of Ayn Rand who retain an unscientific and inflated view of reason's omnipotence."

Reason isn't reason if it conflicts with science. Any thoughts? Is our view of reason unscientific and inflated? Perhaps a letter to the editor is warranted?....

-tony

Post 1

Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 1:58pmSanction this postReply
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Um, it makes strictly no sense to say that Objectivism is unscientific : science is based on Reason. The author has obviously no idea what Objectivism is, or is referring to the ARI cult only without knowing it. Either way, he's dishonest and should apologize.

Post 2

Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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Donald Calne is making a valid point. Many objectivists are rationalists. Instead of basing their thinking on facts and evidence, they have a tendency to base their thinking on floating abstractions.

I wouldn't say that it "makes strictly no sense to say that Objectivism is unscientific".

Take a look at some of these links which describe the scientific method:

http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html

http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node6.html

http://www.soci.niu.edu/~phildept/Dye/method.html

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/t_sci_me.htm

Also, here are some of the recurring words that are used to describe science:
• testability
• evidential support
• precision
• quantifiability
• consistency
• intersubjectivity
• repeatability
• universality
• results independent of cultural milieu

While there are some significant overlaps between science and objectivism, there are also significant differences. And if you compare the intellectual behaviour of some objectivists with the intellectual rigour and honesty of the best of scientists, the differences are all the more striking.

So to dismiss Calne's comments as dishonest and requiring an apology is a knee-jerk reaction that tends to confirm his mistaken view of objectivism.

Post 3

Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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"While there are some significant overlaps between science and objectivism, there are also significant differences."

Please name one.

Post 4

Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 11:20pmSanction this postReply
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Francois,

You want me to name one significant difference between science and objectivism? How about this? Science is an open system of knowledge. Objectivism -- according to Peikoff and his followers -- is a closed system.

That is what Donald Calne is referring to when he implies that objectivism is unscientific. He's referring to objectivism as it is understood by thousands of people -- not as it is understood by us enlightened SOLOists.

Furthermore, many objectivists who regard the philosophy as open still struggle with what Wittgenstein claimed of philosophy: that it is "a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of words".

The virtue of the scientific method -- as it is practised in the hard sciences and many of the soft sciences -- is that it virtually guarantees that you are not "bewitched by words". The scientific method keeps you connected to facts of reality. Or, as Richard Feynman said, "Science is a way of trying not to fool ourselves."

This is what objectivist epistemology does at its best. But it is all to easy to adopt less rigorous thinking habits, which quickly lead you away from the strict standards of hard science and into the murky waters on the far side of soft science.

In that domain it is possible to make all sorts of unscientific statements (such as Ayn Rand's opinions on masculinity, femininity, a female president, homosexuality, instincts, being born tabula rasa, etc.).

Post 5

Friday, January 17, 2003 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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I don't think that Peikoff's vision of Objectivism is relevant. You'll have to try harder. Or are you associating Objectivism itself with the outlook of a closed system ?

Post 6

Friday, January 17, 2003 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
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Francois,

I don't need to try any harder. As far as I'm concerned, the examples I gave in my first post already demonstrated significant differences between objectivism and science. You chose to ignore them as you chose to ignore most of my previous post. I think I'll reciprocate your manner of communicating and simply ignore what you say from now on.

Post 7

Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
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Donald Calne: "It is the close link between science and rationality that helps distinguish humanistic reationalists from Objectivists, those disciples of Ayn Rand who retain an unscientific and inflated view of reason's omnipotence."

No qualification there of certain Objectivists...no specification of ARI or "closed system" Rand adherents or any other qualification...he cites Objectivists as those with "an unscientific and inflated view of reason's omnipotence."

Yes, Calne is either dishonest or ignorant.

Post 8

Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 10:24pmSanction this postReply
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"I don't need to try any harder. As far as I'm concerned, the examples I gave in my first post already demonstrated significant differences between objectivism and science."

No they didn't. Here are the facets you gave :

• testability
• evidential support
• precision
• quantifiability
• consistency
• intersubjectivity
• repeatability
• universality
• results independent of cultural milieu

All of this is perfectly in line with the objectivity of science. You have failed to point out the irrationality of any of these things. Mind to tell us why you are arguing against hundreds of years of scientific method exactly ?

And you didn't discuss the direct deductive link either.


"I think I'll reciprocate your manner of communicating and simply ignore what you say from now on."

May I remind you that you are posting your diatribes against science ON A COMPUTER, ON THE INTERNET ? HELLO ?

Congradulations, you're an idiot.

Post 9

Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 1:52amSanction this postReply
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Francois,

Calm down, man. No reason for name calling. I happen to know that Barry Kayton is brilliant. You've misunderstood him entirely. He is definitely not anti-science.

I actually agree with him. Objectivism is NOT science. Science must be founded on a philosophy (Objectivism, of course) but it's not the same.

To take one example, how do you "prove" or "disprove" the Law of Identity? Is it falsifiable? What's the point of "testing" it if any outcome will be interpreted either for or against it (depending on your philosophy).

Similiarly, how do you quantify the Law of Identity? What does that even mean?

The phrase "Objectivism is unscientific" can mean so many things. It could mean that Objectivism as a philosophy is incompatible with science. That's not true. It can also mean that Objectivism isn't a science, which is true. It's a philosophy. If you use the term "scientific" to mean "objective", then maybe it makes sense, but it's clearly not what Barry was referring to.

I have no idea how you could have interpreted his posts to be anti-science. There's absolutely nothing to support that position.

Try being a little more civil.

Post 10

Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 11:22amSanction this postReply
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He said :

"As far as I'm concerned, the examples I gave in my first post already demonstrated significant differences between objectivism and science."

What else could that possibly mean ? I am curious now.

Post 11

Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 1:39pmSanction this postReply
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Francois,

Donald Calne implied that objectivism is unscientific.

Your response to that implication was: "it makes strictly no sense to say that Objectivism is unscientific.... Either way, he's dishonest and should apologize."

My response to you was to try to point out that objectivism and science are not the same thing -- in the same way that philosophy of law and legal practise are not the same thing, or in the same way that architectural theory and construction work are not the same thing. All of these bodies of knowledge flourish in similar ways but are put into practise differently.

I am neither anti-science nor anti-objectivism. I'm agaisnt cultism. I'm against calling a man dishonest because he says something you disagree with. I'm against allowing one's anger at what others write or say to cloud one's judgement to such an extent that one evades fine distinctions between facts, and responds to others with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

I want to encourage people on this forum to cultivate a habit of thinking with a cool spirit, a kind heart and a focused mind that cuts like a surgeon's scalpel.

Post 12

Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
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I agree. But to say that Objectivism and science are not linked is, in my opinion, simply dishonest. Science is based on observation, hypothesis-building, testing, confirmation, naturalism, all things which are eminently objective. He has not attempted to provide anything that would suggest otherwise.

I don't know where you get off saying I'm angry or that my judgment is clouded. You can only talk about what I'm writing. I am a kind person, but that doesn't mean I am not just. To imply anything else than total absurdity would not be just in this case.

Post 13

Friday, January 24, 2003 - 5:07amSanction this postReply
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Thank you Francois for making your case so eloquent. I find your posts annoying because they waste my time for two reasons -- you do not make any kind of sense and your are incredibly rude in the process. I'm sure my observations don't fit your beliefs about yourself, but I have observed them over a period of time and the findings have been consistent.

Reason is not the exclusive domain of Objectivism nor is reason the only single tool used in science. Nor is 'reason' as it is practiced by so many Objectivists scientific or infallible or even reason.

That is what you have proved.

Tim

Post 14

Friday, January 24, 2003 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
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Why do you lie about my epistemic position ? I am a probabilist, I don't believe in certainty.
Appeals to tolerence are rather hypocrite when you lie in the same breath.

Of course you completely evaded the question that we are discussing. Why am I not surprised ?

Now stop your tally-whacking and actually treat the subject under discussion.

Post 15

Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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Francois,

I didn't know that you are a "probabilist" and "don't believe in certainty". Elsewhere, you explained that the royal "we" you used referred to Objectivism, and yet Objectivism strongly holds that certainty is possible. Could you tell me what degree of confidence you have that you exist (e.g., 90%)?

Post 16

Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 11:49amSanction this postReply
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"I didn't know that you are a "probabilist" and "don't believe in certainty"."

Learn something new every day.


"Elsewhere, you explained that the royal "we" you used referred to Objectivism, and yet Objectivism strongly holds that certainty is possible."

I was referring to "Standard Objectivism" - i.e. the opinion of proeminent Objectivist thinkers. Objectivism itself, like any other ideology, is defined by its fundamentals (objectivity, Reason, egoism, capitalism, romantic realism). Therefore your statement makes no sense.


"Could you tell me what degree of confidence you have that you exist (e.g., 90%)?"

As confident as one can be.

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Post 17

Saturday, December 6, 2003 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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My own answer to all this would be as follows. Philosophy is itself a science: its subject matter is the fundamentals of human existence. This, of course, includes ethics.

The method of science, at root, is reason. Hence Objectivism's elevation of reason to the summit.

I know, some people make lists of the "facets" of science and the scientific method, but this is not an intellectually valid approach. It takes the standpoint of an outsider taking a first look at a physically manifest mystery.

For example, several of the items in the list above would exclude introspection as a valid scientific procedure. The items seem to conceptualize science as a method of proving to others that something is true. But, actually, science is a method of finding out the truth.

In the field of psychology, for example, information gleaned by means of introspection is just as valid and and useful as any other information, and one of the roles of logic--of reason--would be to integrate it all.

Let me say it again: SCIENCE IS NOT A METHOD OF PROVING TO OTHERS THAT SOMETHING IS TRUE; IT IS A METHOD OF FINDING OUT THE TRUTH. Eventually, one will naturally reach a point at which it is possible to prove the truth of one's discoveries to others. But that is not the essence of science or of the scientific method.

Rodney Rawlings

Post 18

Tuesday, December 9, 2003 - 7:59amSanction this postReply
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Actually, historically speaking, it is science which is an extension of philosophy, not the reverse.

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Post 19

Tuesday, December 9, 2003 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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I was not saying that philosophy is an extension of science, but rather that it is a science. That is, it is the use of reason to discover knowledge. The special sciences do the same thing. I would not say science (that is, the special sciences) is an extension of philosophy so much as it is a result of a scientific (in other words, reason-derived) philosophy.

It is true that Ayn Rand, like most people, does often speak of philosophy and science as separate aspects of the quest for knowledge. But here, she is using the term SCIENCE in the narrower sense. Just as often, she uses the wider sense, the one I am using here:

THE AYN RAND LEXICON:

SCIENCE: “It is not the special sciences that teach man to think; it is philosophy that lays down the epistemological criteria of all special sciences.” (Note the qualifier “special.” It implies that philosophy is a science.)

PHILOSOPHY: “... Philosophy is the science that studies the fundamental aspects of the nature of existence.”

ESTHETICS: “The esthetic principles which apply to all art ... are defined by the science of esthetics. ...”

THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS:

“Ethics, as a science, deals with discovering and defining [a code of values].”

Consequently, philosophy is the best example of science as a method of sight rather than a method of communication. Truths are arrived at by thought, and not by such things as testability and quantifiability, which are concepts related only to some of the special sciences as currently practiced in some situations. To define science by such things is to give a definition by nonessentials.

Another good example is Einstein’s “thought experiments.” Of course, he had to test the resulting theories to arrive at certainty, and to convince others of their truth; but my point is that the pure thinking aspect of his work is just as much scientific investigation as any physical experiment.

Rodney Rawlings

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