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Post 0

Sunday, February 2, 2003 - 9:41pmSanction this postReply
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Many of my ideas are very similar to Ayn Rand's but there are a few issues which I cannot reconcile. Please provide a thorough response, if possible:

1. Are laws tools of society or innate to man? I understand that, in order to have a functioning, proper society one must employ Capitalism. But this is merely a means unto an end. Is there a reason why men *must* have rights?

2. Is abstract art, art at all? In particular, I am questioning this sort of postmodernist, noise music that is getting more and more intense. Is there a reason why a chainsaw cannot be a musical instrument? I know that, when I hear it [noise music in general], it makes me sick with disgust but I cannot find adequate reason to say that it is necessarily wrong and irrational. Supposedly, this new form of music is ordered and could, in theory, be written into sheet music. It simply uses new objects as instruments.

3. Aristotle said that happiness was not just pleasure but a direct result of exercising one's rational faculties. It seems to me that exercising one's rational faculties is simply a means unto attaining pleasurable circumstances, which is one's ultimate goal. Is this diametric to Objectivism, and if so, how does rational thought have intrinsic value?

4. Can you prove that this world which we perceive is the world which actually exists? I know that, in order to perceive anything, one must exist. I understand that reality is objective and absolute. But I don't have any way to show that this computer I see before me actually exists. It could me an illusion.

Thank you.

Post 1

Monday, February 3, 2003 - 5:27amSanction this postReply
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To answer your first question, Hippie, humans must have rights in order to survive as human beings, in order to live by thinking, instead of as animals. Take away the rule of law, and what you have is the jungle, where might makes right and the man with the biggest gun is king.

Post 2

Monday, February 3, 2003 - 4:09pmSanction this postReply
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Hello, Matt.

I understand the consequences of not having Capitalism. I certainly support the ideas of Capitalism and human rights qua they are a practical means to civilization. I know that it allows man to exist as it is proper for man to exist. I do not, however, see how rights are--as many Objectivists say--natural parts of a rational human being's existence. Why is it that man cannot exist as man without having rights? Why are they innate within us? How is it not a sort of (forgive me for referring to such a bastard as Rousseau but...) social contract allowing/facilitating men to live in peace and prosperity?

Thank you.

Post 3

Monday, February 3, 2003 - 9:02pmSanction this postReply
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Hippie, you'll find a good introduction to the Objectivist ethics, with a thorough discussion of rights, in the book "Loving Life" by Craig Biddle. It's available on amazon.com and elsewhere.

It's not as easy to find introductory level discussions of Objectivist epistemology, but perhaps others will be able to help you. You might try Leonard Peikoff's book. Meanwhile, if you have evidence that your computer is an illusion, you may not want to waste your time in front of it....

Post 4

Tuesday, February 4, 2003 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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Hello, goldfish boy.

While I've never read, "Loving Life", I have read "We the Living", "Anthem", "The Fountainhead", "Atlas Shrugged", "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal", "The Virtue of Selfishness", "Philosophy: Who Needs It?", "The Anti-Industrial Revolution", "The Romantic Manifesto", "The Voice of Reason", "For the New Intellectual", "The Playboy Interview", and I have read and seen other interviews and smaller works by both Ayn and Leonard Piekoff. While I don't think it's an introduction to Objectivist ethics that is called for, I thank you for the book recommendation. I certainly will look for it.

Post 5

Tuesday, February 4, 2003 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
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Oh yes, I have no evidence that my computer does not exist, but I have no evidence that it does. I use it because I have no reason to believe that it does not exist, and I do have a small amount of uncertain proof it does exist. As much as this might sound like I'm trying to discredit man and his faculties, that's not my attempt. It's simply the world, as I understand it.

Thank you.

Post 6

Wednesday, February 5, 2003 - 6:57amSanction this postReply
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Let's see, you can touch your computer, you can see it, you can hear it's fans turning, you can even give the case a lick and taste it. You can take a screwdriver to it and have a look at the components.

Isn't sensory evidence enough if you're cold sober?

Post 7

Wednesday, February 5, 2003 - 11:37amSanction this postReply
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Hippie you asked is there a reason why men must have rights. As I see it all living entities have the right to use what ever means available to them to survive and reproduce. This is as true for bacteria as it is for man. However unlike all other living entities who are motivated by instinct or internal or external stimuli, we humans need to motivate ourselves to create the most effective means of surviving and reproducing. We don't have instinct to do this for us. We have the capacity for reason and this capacity has enabled us to develop the best means to survive and reproduce. They are the fundamental rights to life and to property. The right to the pursuit of happiness makes the process of surviving and reproducing enjoyable.

As for your question about art and music my conclusion is that good art and music are enjoyable and life enhancing while bad art and music are not.

Post 8

Wednesday, February 5, 2003 - 3:59pmSanction this postReply
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Matt,

I have no proof that my senses are accurate. I have proof that I have senses--obviously. And this proof tells me that there is an existence, and by nature of any rational existence it must be objective. I cannot, however, prove anything further than this. I can only make suppositions and employ probable, though uncertain, inductive logic.

Mark,

We're speaking on the same terms, though. I entirely agree with your position on human rights, but this isn't the stance the Peikoffian Objectivists hold. I only recently noticed that this is a more Kelly-oriented site so I guess I'm asking the wrong people but I was looking for a reason why human rights are something as innate to man as reason is. I can plainly see why rights are a result of reason and a tool of human beings but many other Capitalists make the claim that to not have rights is contrary to the very nature of a human being (Sort of like how some Christians claim original sin is natural to man and only by a process of cleansing does he get rid of it.).

One such Capitalist said something along the lines that, if you do not believe man has innate, natural rights, you unconsciously reject human rights all together. If you don't accept that rights are innate to man, one could argue that a king simply doesn't grant rights to his subjects and thus is not an immoral person as his guilt is nothing more than neglect.

While I don't accept this particular reasoning (since it is two logically fallacies and, in content, wrong), I was asking if someone could provide a reason why this view is necessarily true.

Thank you.

Post 9

Wednesday, February 5, 2003 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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If you're a David Kelley fan, you may want to read his book The Evidence Of The Senses, which addresses your epistemological questions.

Also, to clarify, my understanding (not claiming to speak for Lindsay) is that SOLO is neither a Kelley-oriented site nor an ARI-oriented site. I certainly am not "Kelley-oriented," though I find value in much of his work (but I find almost no value in the rest of TOC).

Post 10

Wednesday, February 5, 2003 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
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Also, rights are neither social constructs nor innate. They're a logical consequence of the choice to live.

Post 11

Friday, February 7, 2003 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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Hello, MJC.

I'm actually more of a Peikoff fan but I'll still look for the book you mentioned. Perhaps over the summer I'll have time to read it.

Anyway, rights must still be employed within and by society. I didn't mean to say that they were the result of some sort of collective thinking. If that's what I communicated, I appologize. They obviously come from an individual's rational thought but they are still a social tool.

Thank you.

Post 12

Sunday, February 9, 2003 - 8:14pmSanction this postReply
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Hippie, in answer to your question about "innate" rights:
There is no question that rights are a product of a "social contract" as you say. However, Objectivists believe that the social contract itself can be judged by whether it creates the most efficient atmosphere for preserving human life, That is why we say that man has "natural rights". The point is that provisions of the "social contract" i.e. laws should be founded on the nature of human beings rather than formed arbitrarily. Does this answer your question?

Post 13

Monday, February 10, 2003 - 10:06amSanction this postReply
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Well, yes and no. I've been saying pretty much just that all along. What I'm trying to do is find an Objectivist who does hold the position that rights are innate (and I know they're out there) so that I can try to understand the logic/rationalization for this view.

Post 14

Monday, February 10, 2003 - 9:37pmSanction this postReply
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(Really, we should have an FAQ on customary newbie questions.)

The objectivist position is that humans have rights not by virtue of having been born (e.g. non-human animals are born but do not have rights) but rather by virtue of living by the exercise of rational consciousness. So NO Objectivist is going to claim that rights are "innate", that is due to one's birth.

"Rights" are a shorthand for the fact that living as a human person - that is, living by means of using one's rational faculty - is only possible under specific conditions. Rights are, first of all, the preconditions necessary for me to live and thrive as a rational being.

Secondly, "rights" denote conditions of each other's existence, that rational men living in each other's society respect, in order to enjoy the benefits of cooperation and trade with each other. The logical argument demonstrating that these are coincident with rights in the first sense goes like this:

1. To live and thrive through the exercise of my rational faculty, I must obtain and preserve specific conditions of existence.

2. I can enhance my ability to live and thrive by cooperation and trade with other rational men.

3. But only if they respect my rights, in the sense of conditions of existence in which I can live and thrive.

4. Therefore I will cooperate and trade only with those who respect my rights.

5. Because other men are rational beings like myself, they also will cooperate and trade only with those who respect their rights.

6. Therefore, to enjoy the benefits of cooperation and trade with other men, I will respect the conditions of existence that other men require to live and thrive by the exercise of their rational faculties.

Post 15

Sunday, December 7, 2003 - 7:02amSanction this postReply
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Hippie:
First, I'm impressed! You've read a lot of what most Objectivists would probably consider the "core texts" of Objectivism (altho I don't neccesarily think that "We the living" and "anthem" illustrate Objectivism in any sort of formulated way. From what I've pieced together, through reading, is that Rand's "sense of life" really comes through, in those earlier works.
This is probably going to annoy somebody, but I gotta say it: when people criticize Rand's later novels -- the Fountainhead/Atlas shrugged -- they sometimes have a point. Rand was a genius, don't get me wrong, but we have to acknowledge that her writing in the later novels is kind of ponderous. Elegant, yes, but also HEAVY.

I just ordered "for the new intellectual" from Amazon, so I'll have to read that one. I'm still learning (as we all are, hopefully), but Objectivism has already helped me in several ways:

1. it's gotten me to re-examine how I related to my family, and stop playing the deterministic "blame game" (IE, "I can't help how am! It's my upbringing!") In realizing that I indeed DO have free will (the capacity to choose between possible alternatives), my entire outlook has changed.

2. I no longer buy into the notion of "let the government do it". one of the worst things that ever happened, was when Hegel gave "philosophical legitimacy" to the notion that the State -- government, in other words -- was the universal remedy for all "social ills".
In fact, the whole notion of "social ills" is somewhat suspect, to my mind. If a problem (say, pornography or drunken driving) is seen as a "social" problem, then it follows that INDIVIDUALS must be restricted as a neccesary condition of solving that "problem", and the main way that happens is through State-sanctioned force.

There are many other ways Objectivism has helped (and IS helping) me, almost on a daily basis. I have far less tolerance for pseudo-intellectuals who depend on "credentials" to get them heard. One of the key points about philosophy is that flawed premises equal flawed results. If (like Hitler or the Inquisition), you believe that the Individual's sole (or even primary) purpose is to "serve" others (IE an "authority", be it God, the State, the Tribe, whatever), then it inevitably follows that the Individual should be COMPELLED to that "service" by whatever means neccesary -- death included.

Objectivism makes it MUCH easier to see through flawed argumentation -- even among "Objectivists" themselves.

You may have noticed that people sometiems will sneer at you for being an Ojectivist (or even maintaining any of the Objectivist viewpoints). This is not an indication you are wrong. This is due to a vested interest on THEIR part to never allow the facts to get in the way of their ponderous "philosophising".
(For evidence, I would point you to a certain Steve M. who trolls this board, saying things like "modern philosophers are CERTAIN that no certainty can ever be attained." Circular? You betcha!


The problem is, I think, when people misunderstand the statement that the basic axioms (Existence, consiousness, Identity), are "outside the province of proof". they automatically assume that since they cannot be "proven", that we take them "on faith", when in fact, it is exactly the opposite: the core axioms of Objectivism are unassailable.
Everyone (even solipsists), acknowledges that SOMETHING exists (namely, themselves.)
They admit that they are consious (or else, how would they even be asking the question?)
They also admit that the THING which they are asking about is a SPECIFIC THING (IE, that it has an Identity) -- otherwise, what are they asking about?

Now, what exactly DO we mean when we say that the axioms are "beyond proof?" As Peikoff lucidly states in his book (OPAR, the philosophy of Ayn Rand), "proof" is the process of reducing a proposition to axioms (IE, ultimately to sensory evidence.
Things can only be "proven" in relation to the evidence, and solipsists/subjectivists, having disqualified the only evidence available -- and defaulted to gibbering wordplay in the process -- are without any ground upon which to stand, whatsoever.

Wow, that was something of a polemic, wasn't it? (grin!)

I hope this has helped you, Hippie. Glad to see another Newbie on board!

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