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Post 0

Monday, May 19, 2003 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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My question is: Can selflessness EVER be considered a virtuous trait? I will leave it at that for now and see what kind of responses I get...

Post 1

Monday, May 19, 2003 - 12:18pmSanction this postReply
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My short answer is "Yes", but only towards those with whom you have a close personal, emotional relationship. This is in keeping with my contention that one should compartmentalize one's impersonal relationship with society and one's personal relationships with children, friends, relatives, lovers. It is never a virtuous trait to apply selflessness to politics or economics.

Post 2

Monday, May 19, 2003 - 1:07pmSanction this postReply
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I think it really depends on what is meant by "selflessness". I think that in situations like Sam is speaking, regarding people to whom you are close and value, what most people would call "selfless" really isn't selfless but selfish.

Each person holds a hierarchy of values. It would be a sacrifice to give up a higher value for a lesser value, but selfish and rational to give up a lower value for a higher value. So it would be selfish to do things for your close friends and loved ones if you personally value the gain that they get higher than the cost to you. Such an act might loosely be called "selfless" because you are giving up something for someone else, but strictly speaking, I think that selflessness, if you define it as a sacrifice of a higher value for a lower, is never a virtue.

Post 3

Monday, May 19, 2003 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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My next question then would be how does the objectivist view selfless professions such as policeman and fireman? I am sure that most of us would not deny that we appreciate what they do, even if we would not do the same for them. How then can we justify appreciating a trait that we do not find to be a virtue?

Post 4

Monday, May 19, 2003 - 5:13pmSanction this postReply
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Policemen and firemen are paid. Additionally, many choose this line of work because it fulfills them, for reasons matching their personalities. Many of them enjoy the excitement, the thrill of danger, the people, the satisfaction of saving a building from destruction, or solving a crime.

Almost any career can be pursued either in the interests of selfishness or selflessness. Any career can be looked upon by an outsider as either primarily selfish or selfless.

Post 5

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 5:19amSanction this postReply
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They are paid and I agree with you that they may do it in part because they enjoy the thrill and excitement of the job but I doubt that very many firemen would tell you that is their motive. The majority of them would not deny that they would be willing to not only risk their life but die to save the lives of others. This person would be deemed a hero by our society. My question is: How does the objective philosophy view this selfless attitude and should we view their selfless attitude as a virtue?

Post 6

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 7:40amSanction this postReply
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Sebastian Junger writes extensively on the types of men who do dangerous work, in fact he is one of them. As a struggling author, he worked as a tree climber, later he spent two years as a war correspondent in Sarajevo. I really enjoy his work. It seems that doing such dangerous work - or work with the perception of danger - allows one to live very intensely. It may well be that the reward these men (and women, but primarily men) get from living in this manner, to them, is worth the risk of death.

Post 7

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
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OK let me try to put this more directly. If a person, regardless of their profession is willing to die to save the lives of other people (not family, relatives, loved ones), should we look at that person as a hero and admire what they did? Is this selfless way of thinking a virtuous trait? If you say yes to the first question and no to the second then does this mean that we can admire traits that we do not find to be of virtue?

Post 8

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 10:23amSanction this postReply
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Merriam-Webster's definition of selflessness: Having no concern for self.

Ayn Rand's comments: "The selfless man is the one who does not think, feel, judge or act. These are functions of the self."

Hmmmm . . . I pose the question,"Is anyone really totally selfless?" Does not everyone have a selfish reason, albeit irrational, for their acts? But to answer the ongoing question: To be willing to die for others, regardless of who they are, does not necessarily constitute selflessness when taken in the light as aforementioned. And no, that person is not necessarily a hero or virtuous. However, he/she certainly is not immoral. Lastly, these types of acts are not to be admired by the rational thinking mind. It is only the mystics of the world who admire them.

Post 9

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
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Mark - this was the first part of your question: "If a person, regardless of their profession is willing to die to save the lives of other people..." and my response is...you previously referred to these as "selfless professions" and I think it is a mistake to assume that these professionals are necessarily selfless *or* that they are willing to sacrifice their lives to save the lives of other people. I think they are invigorated by having a career where they are put into risky positions where there is a chance of death and where they save the lives of others, and I think they get an intense feeling from facing this and surviving it, but I do not think they go into a situation feeling that they will have to choose to give up their own life. People who do such jobs also have the responsibility of making big decisions and get a feeling of power and potency from this. Additionally, there is a great feeling of brotherhood between cops, firemen, and soldiers which comes from working in battle situations. In this case, I guess you are back to situation one, where making a choice to save the life of a person you love actually does become a higher value than saving your own life. I do not think they are immoral choices, I think they are honorable choices in most circumstances.

But to answer your question... (since you obviously want a response, as you keep asking the question :-) I think there must also be some people who go into these professions because they are selfless and would sacrifice their own life for another's. I don't think I could appreciate that as a virtue. Although I am all for extending initial goodwill to strangers, not to the point where it puts me at disadvantage, and death is the most extreme disadvantage I can imagine. So if people are not doing these professions for the money, and/or for the physical and psycho-emotional benefits they reap from them, I hope they wouldn't choose to do them at all.

Post 10

Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 4:27pmSanction this postReply
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No need to look up "selflessness" in any dictionary. The term is synonymous with "altruism".

Post 11

Monday, June 23, 2003 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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A world freer of tragedy and crime is a world where one can pursue their best self-interests. I think police officers have a deep desire for preserving justice, and firefighters for stopping disaster. This doesn’t make them sacrificial animals for society, although we tend to see them that way, and even they mistakenly do as well.

I do see them as heroes. Not because they value a stranger’s life more than their own, but because they value a world where criminal activity and tragedy have no place…and they are willing to fight it. I’ve been attracted to police and forensic work in the past (even took some courses) not because I wanted to be a civil servant, which is bull, but because I’d like killers, rapists, and other scumbags off the streets. How can you have a free society, filled with rational, happiness-pursuing people, if you have crime everywhere? It affects you, and it affects me. I have a selfish interest in making sure the world I live in is free of crime.

Is it needless altruism if you value justice/freedom/order so much that you would fight it, and as a result, your life would be at risk, when you understand the need for these things in life in order to pursue your rational self-interest? I don’t think so. You can argue if some deserve the benefits of police and firefighters…but their motives are rooted in self-interest in seeing a world where mankind can reach their potential without threat.

Post 12

Monday, June 23, 2003 - 2:02pmSanction this postReply
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A world freer of tragedy and crime is a world where one can pursue their best self-interests. I think police officers have a deep desire for preserving justice, and firefighters for stopping disaster. This doesn’t make them sacrificial animals for society, although we tend to see them that way, and even they mistakenly do as well.

I do see them as heroes. Not because they value a stranger’s life more than their own, but because they value a world where criminal activity and tragedy have no place…and they are willing to fight it. I’ve been attracted to police and forensic work in the past (even took some courses) not because I wanted to be a civil servant, which is bull, but because I’d like killers, rapists, and other scumbags off the streets. How can you have a free society, filled with rational, happiness-pursuing people, if you have crime everywhere? It affects you, and it affects me. I have a selfish interest in making sure the world I live in is free of crime.

Is it needless altruism if you value justice/freedom/order so much that you would fight it, and as a result, your life would be at risk, when you understand the need for these things in life in order to pursue your rational self-interest? I don’t think so. You can argue if some deserve the benefits of police and firefighters…but their motives are rooted in self-interest in seeing a world where mankind can reach their potential without threat.

Post 13

Monday, June 23, 2003 - 2:03pmSanction this postReply
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oops. double post. sorry!! Watch out for that F9 key!!!

Post 14

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 1:40amSanction this postReply
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I think one crucial thing is missing here. Alot of these posts specualting on the reasons people go into these lines of work talk as if the people in them are like "Gentleman firemen" or something. Has anyone ever heard terms like these, like "Gentleman rancher", someone who is not into a profession primarily for a livlihood, but primarily for pleasure, because they have enough money to do it without any worry over needing it to be profitable?
I know someone who is fireman and I know why he is and I know, without a doubt he hates it, and has said as much. He hates the blood and the carnage and the people he sees dying horribly right in front of him at times, whom he is powerless to save.
He's saved people before and is happy to have done so, but the bottom line is he'd quit in a heartbeat if he could afford to. It's a job. It's a job, and it was simply the best job available to him when he needed one most. He puts his life on the line, clearly, for the same reasons why I'd think so many join the military out of high school. For economic reasons. If you aren't putting your life on the line, then you do not have the chance at the economic future it provides.
People do their "duty" because they don't have a choice. Their not "gentleman workers" in it primarily for the thrill, satisfaction, love of it all, or sense of altruism. They do it because there is simply no better offers, and to quit means loss with nothing equal or greater to replace it.
For alot of people, like the man I know, joining the fire department was one of the very few ways of joining the ranks of the middle class. It was the only thing he was eligible for and he didn't have to wait for an opening, a wait that was economically impossible to him, which is not at all rare for many.
I think that the altruism for many comes in later as a justification - to themselves - for why they do something, which the truth be known, they really can't or don't know how to escape. So rationalizing the heroism of it all gives it a meaning and reward for them, without wich it just may prove to be utterly intolerable and if it is, then what? Throw in the towel, start shopping at goodwill for your childrens clothes, maybe have your wife leave you, check into the nearest homeless shelter?
I think the reasoning goes, that it's best to just hang on until retirment. People stay for the security, not because work is a priviledge to them, and they can just as well be an actor or a doctor or lawer, or something, and everyone gets to pick their hearts desire in this world. That's not how it is.
Alot of people get into lifthreatening public service occupations because the world is set up where those opportuities exits for one, and they exist as the best bet, economically, on top of that for many. I don't think people do them at all FOR the risk, except perhaps a minority of fools. They do it for a livlihood, not for risk, but for security, and for them, it was the best thing available they were capable of, from where they were at.
You know, not everyone gets to go to college. Not everyone gets to pick a major in life, which is a priviledge for alot of people. The posts I read read like everyone is like a college student in life who gets to pick, out of an array of fairly equal roads, which one they would like to go down. Well, I'm here to say there are very many people that do not get to choose whatever they like at some carreer smorgasborg. Alot of people, at least most of the people I know, do what they do because it was simply the only winning alternative that confronted them at the time. There doesn't seen to be an understanding here that people can "pick" their particular occupation the same way others "pick" to go to college itself.
For alot of people, their very occupational choice is as equal of a choice to them, as for others the choice to enter college is. Entering college is a platform for getting to decide what you'd LIKE. Well, there is also world that doesn't have that privilege, cultural myths about the land of opportunity notwithstanding.

Having said that, let me answer the question: is selflessness ever a virtue? No. What reason could a "self" have for acting in it's own disregard? What could motivate a self to do so? Saying that this is ever possible is the same as saying a self's actions can exist without the same selfs volition, and that volition for a self can be independent of it. In other words, selfless action is acting on the notion that the self is a puppet of something beyond it. We know that for a self, there is no self beyond it. It is itself. It is not what it is AND what it is not, that itself cannot be outside of itself, that's a contradiction, and so it's volition cannot be, and a compromise isn't possible. A self can only act on it's own volition and so only for it's own benefit. There is no escape from that fact, and so acting as if in any way there is, or can be, is wrong.
It's tantamount to acting as if YOU exist apart from YOU. If you act FOR another, then you act as if you ARE that other, which is unfair to both of you ,really. Disrespectful. The whole thing about selflessness is that it contradicts the law of identity as applied to the identity of the self, that it is what it is. You act in your own interest, always, because it's logically inconcievable to act without simply, a reason to. There has to be some REASON for you to. Selflessness always implies the opposite, that somehow it's possible for you to act free of any personal value, that an action doesn't always necessarily imply one.
You can act AS IF that's not true, which is selflessness, but such "acting" will only lead to personal dead ends because it's unrealistic. You can only go so far until you have to do something actually supportive of yourself.

Post 15

Sunday, December 7, 2003 - 7:25amSanction this postReply
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Oh no, not ME again (grin!)

1. Mark keeps assuming (or rather asserting) that police or fire-fighting are "selfless" professions or "selfless" acts. Despite having had it explained to him, he still uses the term "selfless" to describe them, which is unfortunate.

2. Yes, qite a few people go into police and fire-fighting for purely economic reasons. BUT there ARE a significant number of other reasons people go into it also:

A. My wife's Stepfather (who is eighty-some years old now) used to be a fireman. he had to be FORCIBLY retired at 65, and quit the department rather than take a desk job and be "promoted" to paper-pusher status. Y'know why he was a fireman? He himself told me this, and I would certainly think that somebody who DID the job, would have a decent amount of understanding of why people were in it.

he did it because he LIKED physical action, challenge, decisions, helping others, and found fire to be really intriguing and compelling in itself. YES. Strange as it may seem to those who believe all this "selflessness" hogwash, many firemen are in fact pyromaniacs at heart. Why do you think (and this is documented fact), the first suspects in arson investigations are very often fire-fighters? Because THEY GET INTO firefighting to be near FIRE.

Our entire planetary culture is so corrupted at this point by the pseudo-philosophy of "altruism" that people in the mainstream (like our friend mark, for example), cannot separate the ethical status of an act, from it's beneficiary. "Action for self = evil(or amoral)"
"Action for others = moral"
That's a vicious doctrine if ever I heard one.
And no, Mark, NOBODY goes into these things (police work, firefighting, military) "Willing to die". NOT AS SUCH. If a firefighter, policeman, or soldier had a "death wish" (which is essentially what you're implying whether you meant it or not), they'd get their ass KILLED uselessly.
The criterion is NOT that they are willing to LOSE their life....but whether they are willing to RISK it, in the attainment of the values which ENHANCE their life.
Yes, mark, it IS possible to help others and be benevolent without being "altruistic". If you CHOOSE who you benefit -- and HOW you benefit them.

You need to re-examine your preconceptions regarding "selfish" and "selfless" before asking these sorts of questions, and QUIT presupposing that those are 'selfless' acts.

For example I would be willing to put myself in great physical danger to try to help my wife, should that be neccesary. This does NOT inevitably mean that I would be "willing to die" for her -- if by that you mean that I am NOT at the time constantly and consistently TRYING TO SURVIVE, AND save my wife at the same time.

Lifeboat scenarios are fine for ethics class, where REALITY doesn't need to intrude, but SOMETIMES we have to actually deal with reality.

Sorry mark, I'm not trying to be hostile, but your incessant repetition of "these selfless acts" over and over will NOT make it so.
If you're going to pose a question, then please listen to the guy's answer, okay?

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