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Post 0

Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 4:17pmSanction this postReply
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What does everyone think about this concept?

I was debating with a member on this other board I post on and his view on it is "martyrdom=tight as fuck. i lose my life, 10 peopel live; thats worth it. simple as math. 1 < 10"

I responded with, "Martyrdom=Ruthless Grip of Logic. I hope you are joking, because it is not as simple as math.

Osama bin Laden repeatedly cites religious texts, in addition to the Koran.

He especially favors martyrdom and boasts that Islamic youths "love death as the Americans love life. Martyrdom is for religious fanatics who worship death and the afterlife. This is Altruism to an extreme, and is why it can be dangerous if it is not taken lightly.

I hope you don't honestly glorify martyrdom as a moral ideal. It's fused with the outlook of Islamic fundamentalism. It's an assault on human life, and it just another ultimate symbol of sacrifice. Suicide bombers are a perfect example. They make great sacrifices and suffer much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle."

What are all your views on martyrdom? I think that sacrificing your life for an important cause is ridiculous. The ultimate purpose of one's life is his own happiness and his own survival, not that of others.

Post 1

Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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I don't approve of martyrdom, dying "gloriously" for some "noble" cause. On the other hand, if my choices come down to "die fighting" or "live as a slave" -- then I'm taking as many of the bastards to Chaos with me as I can.

Post 2

Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 6:14pmSanction this postReply
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Your choices will never come down to that, as long as the martyr mentality, and there death-worship mindset does not prevail.

Post 3

Friday, June 27, 2003 - 9:59amSanction this postReply
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I hope not. But it's not just the martyr-lovers who worship death. Christianity itself is a death cult, and most of the American politicians claim to be Christians.

Post 4

Friday, June 27, 2003 - 3:34pmSanction this postReply
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"... most of the American politicians claim to be Christians."

Coincidence? I don't think so.

Post 5

Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 7:00pmSanction this postReply
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Probably not a coincidence. Politicians are nothing but vultures; they depend both on death and the fear of death to secure their power -- just like Christians. Diderot had the right idea: "Man will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."

Post 6

Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 7:23amSanction this postReply
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Naivety being about whether religious misperceptions cause terrorism or whether the USA is self-serving in its interests to bring about democracy in the Middle East, is in the eye of the beholder.

Let's try a little humor...cause people have a tendency to complicate things...and kill each other in the name of Allah/God.

...I suppose we’all have to live by the word of Allah/God because someone told it...it's in the Qur’an, Torah, and the Bible...and we have to believe it...if we didn't believe it...we’all would be condemned to hell...do I have it straight?

And...This God...HE magically appeared out of nowhere...HE then created the whole universe, magically...out of nuthin'...cause he was lonely by HIMSELF...cause there was nuthin' but himself floatin' around in nuthingness...do I have it straight?

We’all need to think straight...and need to get rid of superstitions...it's the 21st Century.

God is spiritual and is the progressive and accumulative spiritual intelligence of the universe; of all the righteous souls who have passed into the spiritual realm. God does not and never has meddled in the tangible universe. God guides the development of the universe like a Master Planner. (no direct interference)

It is of no importance during our physical life whether God exists or not if one so chooses. Whether or not one believes in a spirit or God really makes no difference to God. Righteous living will determine the continuance and destiny of our spirit/soul.

One's life can be enhanced by receiving solace and being comforted during life's trials and tribulations by having our spirit inspired and blessed by the Spirit of God. This is normally man's only connection with God except when God’s Spirit interacts with a person’s spirit directly; God’s messenger. However, the Ultimate Truth is indecipherable by the human mind and can only be divulged to the spirit which also often misinterprets its meaning, hence we have various religions and beliefs.

Post 7

Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
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This thread on martyrdom interests me somewhat.

However, it is not the issue of Martyrdom that interests me, but rather the manner that people have responded to this post.

It is true that certain factions believe in intrinsic values which are more valuable than material values such as life, longevity, etc. There are other factions that believe that such intrinsic values don't exist, and to believe in them is to be deluded.

What interests me is how people who don't believe in 'the greater good', as it were, seem to derive such pleasure from ridiculing those that do.

The extent to which christians are rediculed in this thread is ridiculous.

Objectivists come across as people who are generally more evolved, and who have learned to look past the moral values implied by society to see that in reality much of what is believed has no basis in fact.

However, I would term the attitudes put forward by many Objectivists as 'boisterious', almost like children playing in a sand-pit.

Let us not tarry with laughing at other people we consider to be deluded, and rather pursue our own advancement.

Ridiculing others can be seen as reveling in our supposed superiority. Who said we are superior? We can assume we are superior, as so many seem to do, however is this really what we want to do?

Rather, let us realise that essentially we are all the same inside, and while we are individuals, our individuality is not a badge to be flashed around. Sure, we are individual, but we have very much in common, more than meets the eye.

Let us not only recognise our individuality, but also recognise our common traits. In striving to know ourselves, we can't ignore an integral part of ourselves, that part which we share with other humans.

To ignore this is to stop ourselves from progressing. So instead of viewing a person with intrinsic values as a closet fool, let us rather view them as someone similar to ourselves, but who has made a different choice.

We may disagree with the choice, but to dismiss them altogether is to dismiss ourselves.

As far as martyrs are concerned, certainly they view their actions as the right thing to do, the ultimate 'good' act. All of us share this drive, regardless of what we do with it.

Whereas some of us may see the ultimate 'good' act as realising there is no good act, just individual choice, we exhibit the same drive in that pursuit.

I might suggest that those who are so avid to criticise are in fact not confident of their own convictions. If we are confident in ourselves entirely, we would surely rather help other people to see things our way, to help them progress, as we know our way is the way to go.

Calling them fools and laughing at them is certainly not what such a confident person would do.

You may reject this action I am taking of comparing the qualitative value of an individual's actions, but may I remind you that this is exactly what you are doing yourself when you criticise other people so vehemently.

Let us not succumb to petty rivalries, but rather strive to reach our philosophical goal, that of being at peace with ourselves and others.

Post 8

Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 3:18pmSanction this postReply
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Vertigo:
"What interests me is how people who don't believe in 'the greater good', as it were, seem to derive such pleasure from ridiculing those that do."

I don't get pleasure from ridiculing those who believe in the 'greater good' ... I'm willing to go to the barricades to fight those who advocate that depraved concept. This is nothing less than the sacrifice of the individual to the collective. Try, if you can, to put a different spin on it.

Not cordially

Paul

Post 9

Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 4:20pmSanction this postReply
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"This is nothing less than the sacrifice of the individual to the collective."

I agree with you on that point, that is the fundamental idea of such a philosophy.

However, it seems strange to not confront people who believe in such a 'depraved concept' with logic and reason of the supposed folly in it, but rather ridicule and mocking.

Don't you think there might be a better way?

Post 10

Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 9:46pmSanction this postReply
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There's no point in trying to use logic and reason at the abstract level with someone when they have such views. The only thing you can do is to challenge them with a concrete example. If they want to talk, challenge them to read Animal Farm by George Orwell and defend the actions of Boxer, the draught horse.

Post 11

Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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How can we change Muslim religious ideology to stop terrorism?

How does one confront the passions of people with a logical entreaty to abandon faith? How does one convince a young man that his self-immolation in a bombing will not bring redemption from Allah to his soul and rewards to his people or honor to his family?

If logical reasoning lodges doubt into the mind of a martyr that his soul will be destroyed as a punishment for being the cause of cutting short another soul's ability to attain a bond with Allah/God, eventually the act of self-sacrifice ceases. This is the only effective way that man will eventually attain peace.

We can spend billions of dollars in an attempt to annihilate groups of people who have an adamant fanatical goal to destroy anyone who hinders the path of spreading their religion. They believe that this has been commanded by Allah. The end result will always be the same. The fanatics who are destroyed fuel the hatred of a new group with the same or an even fiercer fervor to die for their Allah if the need arises.

How do we solve this problem? The pen is mightier than the sword. To the illiterate, visual projections via film is the greatest tool. The media and film producers have always shied away from the possibility of offending religious organizations. A fear of the fundamentalists' wrath has even stifled the desire for the truth. Can the real truth be revealed? Will this end strife? Maybe not, but unless we try, we will never know; will we?

A fanatic passion to please God has been demonstrated throughout the Ages. We have seen vast destruction and useless killings by religious zealots that have followed us into the present century whereby even technology is unable to quell its tide. Muslims have been led to believe that they must expand Islam in order to please Allah/God. Since Judaism created the present perception of God, it is the duty of Judaism, the originator to bring rationality to a belief in Allah/God if Israel and Judaism wants to live in peace with Muslims.

If all the events that occurred as written in the Bible, Qur’an and Torah now, today, would humanity be as gullible now and accept all miracles and God as portrayed then? If the context entails incorrect exegeses and the vast tradition of hermeneutics and the translation is illogical, it is illogical whether it is by my interpretation or by any logic.

Mankind has progressed past a need for a God who desires and requires servitude. We can eliminate servitude and still have a closeness and love of God. It was man who placed restrictions on himself for the good of mankind and attributed this to God. Most of us now live in a lawful society. Now laws are proposed and enforced by governments. God does not, and never has meddled in our affairs.

If we take rationality completely out of context when establishing an association with present day problems between Jews, Christians and Muslims, we can come up with numerous solutions. Reality however dictates that if there were no distinctions between Muslims, Jews, and Christians, strife would be nonexistent. The major distinction is religion

The best weapon against irrationality is logic. If logic is implemented in religion, eventually the inference of reasoning has to predominate and the illogical will be considered inferior and will ridicule itself out of existence. Today we have at our disposal the means whereby the media can reach even the farthest corners of our world.

True logic is the science of inference and reasoning

http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/wiki.phtml?search=kurt+kawohl

Post 12

Thursday, December 4, 2003 - 4:11amSanction this postReply
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I dare say we need to present them with the truth.

I am certainly not an expert, but it seems that many of the moslems are indoctrinated in their mosques, and essentially told what to think. Many moslems you speak to preach the same propaganda, like 'Americans are terrorists because they bombed Hiroshima' (I know I am generalising, I am sure not all moslems are like this).

The fact is, the individuals in the Islam faith seem unwilling to form their own opinion, lest they are deemed unworthy. The solidity of their faith defines their character. They would go so far as to blatantly ignore facts presented to them on the basis that simply not believing them is enough.

I don't pretend to know how to solve the problem, however it seems we need to not stir up their religious fervour, but communicate to them as trying to help.

Of course, when they don't believe it is helpful, what do you do?

One school of thought says to leave them to it, it is their right. Is it their right to be indoctrinated, to have lies told to them each day?

Believe it or not, I don't have a serious problem with having religion in society. Most people who join a religion are in need of purpose, or are especially distraught and looking for something to believe in. Theoretically in a religion (at least some) they learn to feel important, and worthwhile.

This effect is important, and while some go to therapy, some go to church. Unfortunately, there are far worse things that religion provides.

One of the main premisses of religion is to believe in something which cannot be proved. This is a part of the problem, and it is a perversion of the discovery process.

To be creative we need to think outside our normal boundaries. Christopher Columbus believed India could be reached by sailing west, while most people at the time believed he would fall off the earth. Believing in something that seems irrational is part of discovery.

Luckily for Columbus, the 'edge of the earth' theory was easy to disprove. Unfortunately, the 'no God exists' theory is impossible to disprove. This is where the mistake comes in.

Because we cannot prove a God exists, people elevated belief into something to be treasured, to be valued above all else, whereas before it had simply been a step in discovery, a necessary but not implicitly and uniquely valuable thing. For while belief is good, it must be tempered with reason.

This transition of belief's value is what causes the problems of today with religion. Knowledge is power, and the pursuit for knowledge is the only thing that can liberate humanity.

Instead of religions sharing knowledge and working to advance humanity, they are pitted against each other, each saying they are the only way.

With any unproved theory, one must realise the possibility or it being incorrect. To assume a theory is correct is blatantly wrong. Even with an unprovable theory, one mustn't stop thought in different directions.

While religion dictates a moral standard to life, and a God who judges, that is simply a theory among theories, all of which needs substantial research.

At least to my limited experience, some theologicians seem to imply that the indescriminate desire for knowledge is something which is part of the problem. It seems to me some even blame progress, or evolution as they term it, for society's lack of morals.

For progress to happen you need collaboration and motivation. Generally the predominant motivation is jealousy, which definitely isn't a good trait. Jealousy can be seen as the predominant instigator in war, which has in turn driven much of humanity's progress.

To me, jealousy is a problem, not progress.

The other need for progress is collaboration, since alone we can only achieve so much. Some theologicians seem to imply that the sharing of ideas is something bad, a form of communism.

Realise this, if we hadn't shared ideas, how long would it have taken humanity to discovery fire. Without the sharing of ideas, we would live as the animals do, each to his own, and relationships would only be dictated by survival.

Surely anybody deeming this sharing as bad would be deeming the fundamental nature of any sort of civilisation as bad.

These theologicians, only a small percentage luckily, contradict themselves, because religions like Christianity abdicate 'spreading the Word', and this is sharing ideas.

Stemming from this argument one can see that progress is something to be heralded, at least when not driven by jealousy.

As for modern religions, we need somehow to point out that believing in a theory shouldn't exclude all other theories, and belief is a step toward toward discovery, not an end it itself.

Post 13

Thursday, December 4, 2003 - 7:06amSanction this postReply
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Philosophy is a desire to ascertain a person’s perception of particular events. The more seemingly facts one acquires of a particular unknown the more questions develop. Is our part in the universe played out when we die physically or is there maybe another dimension wherein our thought processes are accumulated and stored for future references and which can also be used as inspirations for mankind? Let us assume the existence of a collective knowledge and call it the progressive and accumulative spiritual intelligence of the universe. Is this what mankind has possibly misinterpreted for several millennia as being God?

What is the purpose of our lives? We should live our life to its fullest. One hundred years from now almost every single person alive today will have died. Several billion people, wiped off the face of this earth. Our life is but a blip on the radar screen of time.

Can our subconscious, our spirit possibly interact with a spiritual reality through meditation and receive the answers to some of our questions?

Please consider my experiences.

IMHO, I have personally experienced my spirit leaving my body and being united with the "ultimate supreme spirit" (God?). In 1956, when I was fifteen years old, I had pneumonia and thought I was dying. My father took me to a doctor who gave me a penicillin injection and recommended immediate hospitalization. We had no medical insurance or money, so my father took me home to recuperate. I remember the drive home vividly. Every breath was painful and my chest felt as though a great weight was upon it. I watched cars and trucks drive by, and wondered how people could make long term plans when life was so unpredictable.

Several nights later, it felt as if my spirit left my body and it experienced being in a place with a gathering of souls or spirits. I sensed great peace, tranquility and ecstasy -- a rapture that was beyond a person's imagination. I felt as if I was a part of ALL, a part of God. I was mentally communicating and in sync with everyone, including not only some of my deceased acquaintances and relatives, but many of the prophets of the bible, and historical people I had read about. There was no dominant force, no forceful leader. I somehow knew who everyone was. Every thought interacted with the whole community. I had no questions; it seemed as if everything was revealed and crystal clear. I saw the universe stretched out with spirits engaged in mental interaction like master craftsmen contemplating the creation of a new frontier.

When I told my father who was a preacher of the Lutheran Faith about my experience he dismissed it abruptly and told me that this "supreme spirit," this God that my spirit had witnessed, was not the God of the bible and he told me to pray for my salvation. We never talked about it afterwards.

Since that time I never really gave it much thought until the New York World Trade Center tragedy on 9-11-01. I went into deep meditation. I wanted to find an answer to why and how some misguided individuals could believe that their actions would be rewarded with their soul's eternal life with God. I then had a couple of experiences similar to the one I had at age fifteen of my spirit communicating with the "ultimate spirit." (God, Allah or whatever one desires to call him/her/it) One spiritual experience seemed to last throughout the entire night. My spirit observed the entire history and the evolution of the universe and our varying perceptions of God, as if in a fast-forward film.

The experiences I encountered after the 9-11 tragedy helped me come to these conclusions:

1. ALL religions have the same goals and all who live by the basic principles of peace will attain their goal. The problems arise when religious fanaticism arises. A fanatic passion to please God has been demonstrated throughout the Ages. We have seen vast destruction and useless killings by religious zealots that have followed us into the present century whereby even technology is unable to quell its tide.

2. In this 21st Century, the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that are a contributing cause toward terrorism, killings and wars between nations. Belief in a deity, who keeps causing catastrophes, punishes people, and created the universe out of nothingness as if by magic was brought about by hysteria and superstitions. This thought process needs to be reassessed and brought up to date. Open-minded people must use common sense to determine whether this so-called deity was incorrectly perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone era.

3. God is a spiritual unity, a oneness, a structured government-like "Spiritual Collective"; the "Progressive and Accumulative Spiritual Intelligence" of the universe existing in a spiritual dimension; a collective of the righteous souls who have passed into the spiritual realm; a spiritual continuity.

Some will say that my personal experience of oneness with a supreme spirit is nothing but a dream or a vivid imagination. It doesn't matter whether you accept or totally reject my story. What does matter is that we evolve to a point whereby we can encourage open-minded people to offer feedback on how our religious beliefs can be brought into the 21st century.

Let us hope that man will eventually progress intellectually and evolve to a point whereby he can socialize with totally eliminated tendencies for barbarianism and without fanaticism; This would be true enlightenment.

http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/wiki.phtml?search=kurt+kawohl

Post 14

Friday, December 5, 2003 - 11:46amSanction this postReply
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Kurt, thank you for your generous reply.

I would like to make some points.

You mentioned that our individual lives are but a small blip on the radar, potentially meaningless. Hence you say we should live our lives to the fullest.

That needs clarification of the term 'fullest'. We need some yardstick to determine if a life has been lived 'to the fullest'. This is completely subjective, and while some people might believe success and fame are the marks of a successful life, others might believe we should exhibit humility and grace.

However, according to our own measurement of a successful life, we should proceed towards it, as complacency does no good. Much of philosophy is obviously deciding what we deem determines a successfully lived life.

We need to realise that only we have the power to make a change in our own lives, and we all possess this gift. We often hear that certain people are 'strong willed', while others are 'weak willed'. I say all people possess the same force of will, but some second guess themselves. Instead of placing trust in our own perception and ideas, we implicitly tend to trust others before ourselves.

I have wondered about the origin of this. Is it a result of society's moral standing that we must give others respect whenever possible?

Frequently we wrestle with what the 'right' thing to do is, where often our judgement is heavily influenced by societal values or 'what other people would think', resulting in us going against our own belief.

I agree that we need to eliminate fanaticism, but to do this we need to start backing ourselves, and what we believe to be true, for then we won't feel such a burning desire to defend our position.

It is my view that an 'enlightened' person is partly one who can express their judgement without undue emotional attachment, and thus can equally accept being proved right or wrong.

It is in the expressing of our ideas that they come to light. While they are in our head, they might as well not have been thought up.

If we are in a situation where ourselves and some other party express different opinions, and we unjustly give them the benefit of the doubt, whilst we actually think our idea is more correct; if it then turns out that our thoughts were correct, we might feel resentment to our opponent or to ourselves for not feeling confident.

If our thoughts turn out to be incorrect, we might feel glad that we didn't express it, as people now don't know we had the wrong idea. We must never think this way. This self-doubting is a major problem in our society.

If everybody had to stand up and voice their opinion, we would see many people liberated from their daily strifes. A grudge harboured doesn't go away, and part of removing that anger is to express it.

Generally we need to be more open, but not obsessively so. Much of what we think isn't what we want. Any Systems Analyst will tell you, people don't say what they want.

If we get our beefs out in the open, we will soon discover the substance of them. Being angry at somebody does no good. Importantly, to do the 'right' thing by pretending not to be angry at them while we actually are, is even worse. We should tell them what it was that angered us, and in doing this we will be able to get past it.

To be brutally honest, I am guilty of not doing this enough myself.

At the same time, when telling them of our feelings, we shouldn't be too hung up on their answer. This happens all too often. We have a petty beef with someone and want them to feel sorry for doing it. We tell them, and they apologise. But it never seems as good as we expected.

Unfortunately, whether they are sorry or not really makes no difference. We should be telling them so that we can leave it behind, not make more anxiety by trying to make them sorry.

Some people call this 'karma' and such, but this often has other connotations, so I prefer not to call it that.

People also sometimes call this behaviour of backing ourselves 'self-esteem', but that also has some negative connotations, so again I don't like to call it this. The reason I say this is certain people who display lack of will are often labled as having 'low self-esteem'.

The sound of this is like that person is somewhat deficient, perhaps less worthy than somebody else. Since we all have the ability to back ourselves, I avoid this term.

Kurt, as for my opinion as to the validity of the visions you described, that hardly matters, regardless of what that opinion is. You believe it to be true, and I respect that.

Post 15

Sunday, December 7, 2003 - 2:28amSanction this postReply
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Just my "two cents worth" here but it seems to me an Objectivist might, in certain circumstances, be willing to give his life for his values.

Suppose some group of fanatics (from whatever death cult) were about to nuke a western city, and an Objectivist had the oppertunity to stop them at the cost or likely cost of his own death, shouldn't he do it?

Personally I wouldn't regard this as sacrifice/martyrdom as such as individual would be fighting for rational values against the death-worshippers.

Am I being irrational here?
Matthew Humphreys

Post 16

Sunday, December 7, 2003 - 9:05amSanction this postReply
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1. This whole thread brings up some good points.

Mr. Kawohl, thank you for your sincere and heartfelt exposition on your viewpoint. What tends to happen FAR too often in Objectivist circles, is that we react to (and fight against) reliigion, because there is so much to hate about it.

To be honest, your viewpoint is really close to something put forward by Spinoza (one of the philosophers in the same general tradition as Objectivism). Spinoza's view was that the totality of everything (what we Objectivists would call "Existence") was the only thing worthy of calling "God".
This (of course) degereated into "scientific pantheism" and other deformed, mutant offshoots. To be honest, I hold with Robert Ingersoll on this issue: IF there is a "god" or a spiritual realm, then it is a FACT OF Existence independent of our "beliefs" on the subject.
IF this is true, then this "spiritual realm" (like all other aspects of Existence), exists independent of any individual's "belief" in it, or perception of it.
(note that this goes for even such things as language and politics and ethics. Even though they are devised by human minds, and exist ONLY THROUGH human creation -- they are still implicit in the POSSIBLE (IE, the nature of Existence itself.)

This is going to be really confusing to some people, and admittedly it's going to start a bunch of philosophical discusion. I might even get flamed. The only thing we can definitively say is that the arbitrary is neither true nor false. Truth or falsehood are related to the evidence, and until and unless evidence is given to support a given conclusion, I can't even comment on whether something is "possible" or not (because I don't KNOW whether it is.)

Now, having said that, I cannot deny that you hae had these sorts of experiences (obviously you did). We can, however, speculate on the nature and meaning of them:

Do they originate from "external reality", or are from your own psychological structure? (Note, that even if they ARE internal in nature, that does not automatically invalidate them, or trivialize them.)

What are the implications for this "Spiritual collective" you talk about? Does it have social, ethical, or political consequences?

Speculations on such matters are outside of the purvie of this discussion, so I won't go any farther with this, except to say that I'm truly sorry if Objectivism looks to be anti-spiritual.
We are (when you come down to it), some of the most spiritual people you can find. We are lovers of life, and of humanity, and we (like you) want to do the best we can, with what we have available.

I think I'm off topic.....

(grin!)

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