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Post 0

Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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I recently had a heated debate with someone I had, up until our debate, thought to be somewhat rational. I will allow the readers to draw their own conclusions, but to paraphrase his argument, it was this:

"There is no such thing as right or wrong. Whatever the majority believes is right, is right. If you believe something other than the majority, you must be wrong."

No amount of historical or current examples of when the majority has been wrong would sway him. The reason he would not be swayed was because we had a conflict of premises. I would say "The South was wrong when they enslaved blacks," and he would say, "Yes, it is wrong now, here, to have slavery. But back then it was culturally acceptable, and therefore justified."
The problem was that he could not accept the existance of such an abstraction as morality. I *know* morality exists, but I was at a loss for words when trying to prove that it exists. My question for all of you is, how can one prove that morals are real and non-subjective? If we simply have faith in morals when we cannot prove their existence, then how are we any different from any subjectivist?

Post 1

Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:49amSanction this postReply
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A good starting point for "proving" morality is to have a standard. At any place, in any time, the most basic and essential standard is human life. What's required for human life? Freedom. Freedom from any number of things that other men may inflict upon you. Morality provides for that freedom. Morality is the standard by which humans ~should~ interact.

As for "...but back then it was culturally acceptable, and therefore justified..." ask your friend: Justified by whom? By what standard? Ask your friend what his standard is. If his answer is anything other then proper human happiness, you have a lot more to deal with than his inability to grasp an objective morality. If he answers that, yes, human happiness is the ultimate standard of interaction between individuals, you might just have to explain what human happiness means...but its a start. When I'm concerned with an issue of morality, I ask myself: Is this good for Life on Earth, for me or those concerned?

Post 2

Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 1:26amSanction this postReply
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You might start off by showing why morality is necessary in the first place. To survive, we must act. To act, we have to make choices. To make choices, we have to pick between competing alternatives (values). And these values have consequences. They might promote our lives and our goals, or they might hurt them.

Rand said that everyone has a philosophy, and the only question is whether you make it explicit so you can clarify and clean it up, or leave it implicit and become a slave to it. Morality is the same. We all have a system of values. The question is only whether we make the values consistent and life-affirming, or whether we allow them to contradict one another, creating self-defeating actions.

Post 3

Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 6:14amSanction this postReply
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Thanks guys, but I just know I'm going to get a response like "But how are you sure that human life is the standard? It's not written anywhere."

Post 4

Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 7:51amSanction this postReply
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Tommy, if you get that response, then tell him that you hold human life as the standard because you value your life and those of the people you value. If he can't understand that, then to chaos with him.

Post 5

Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks guys, but I just know I'm going to get a response like "But how are you sure that human life is the standard? It's not written anywhere."

Post 6

Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
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whoops. double post.

Post 7

Monday, November 24, 2003 - 6:49pmSanction this postReply
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Someone please help me root out the source of the contradiction. Which premise is wrong?:

Premise #1:
My morality is based on the standard of my life and my pursuit of happiness. If something makes me happy than to pursue it is moral.

Premise #2:
If Premise #1 is true, then if someone's happiness requires the slaughter of an innocent person, than to pursue that is moral.

Premise #3:
If Premise #2 is true, then the innocent person's life and pursuit of happiness are secondary to the killer's. To allow Premise #2 to work, the innocent person must first deny himself Premise #1. If the innocent person does not deny Premise #1, he denies the other guy the ability to follow through with Premises #1 and 2.

Post 8

Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
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I am not a philosopher but your "pursuit of happiness" is where you run into problems. Pursuit of rational self-interest would work though. M

Post 9

Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 3:33pmSanction this postReply
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You may be right. I have been considering this, and I have decided that the first premise should be rewritten to say: "Aside from imposing your will on anyone else, any pursuit of happiness (happiness meaning self-interest) is legitimate."

Post 10

Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 6:16pmSanction this postReply
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Tommy,
Hopefully, this won't come across as too pedantic. If so, please let me apologize in advance, as that is not my intent. This question has been addressed in Objectivist writings in detail, from The Objectist Newsletter, to The Virtue of Selfishness, to Objectivism -- The Philosophy of Ayn Rand. In a nutshell, the conditional nature of man as a being of volitional consciousness gives rise to the need for morality, and his nature as a rational being dictates the furtherance of his life in accordance with that nature as his primary standard of value. Here are some online links for more details:
http://capmag.com/article.asp?id=2167
http://www.importanceofphilosophy.com/Ethics_Main.html
Does that make sense?
If not, please let me know, and I'd be more than happy to clarify.
Thanks.

Post 11

Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 9:07pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, believe it or not, I wasn't aware of that.
Objectivism is rather new to me, but I have recently spent some time reading the ImportanceofPhilosophy.com website, which has been of great help in understanding so many of this questions that are probably very basic to the rest of you. But thanks for offering help and bearing with me :)

Tommy

Post 12

Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 3:37pmSanction this postReply
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I imagine this question is going to annoy.

"In a nutshell, the conditional nature of man as a being of volitional consciousness gives rise to the need for morality, and his nature as a rational being dictates the furtherance of his life in accordance with that nature as his primary standard of value."

Why does the fact that humans are rational dictate futhering our own lives as our standard of value?

I realise that reading the philosophy of Ayn Rand will most likely answer this question, but I don't understand how this can be stated so surely.

I do imagine it is due to the conflict that other value systems present, when adherence to those values will result in our own death, or some such event.

But can we thus say that we should assume the furtherance of our own lives as our standard of value? Can there be value in any other pursuit?

One of the links mentions that self-sacrifice is destructive. While this may be true, certainly in some instances not sacrificing of the self could be seen as being more destructive, in the sense that perhaps we have the power to save our planet, along with the human race, by sacrificing ourselves.

In this scenario we have multiple courses of action. We can choose to sacrifice ourselves to save the rest of the humans. Theoretically for us to decide to do this, we must believe the collective value of the human lives to be greater than our own life.

If we choose to preserve our own life, safe in the knowledge that all the human race will become extinct, we must have believed that the value of our own life was greater than that of the collective value of all the other human lives.

I have a feeling the majority of people would choose to save the rest of humanity, based on the moral values given to them by society, or religion.

In what sense can we regard saving ourselves as the 'better' alternative, in the sure manner of the quote above? Is it not true that each individual will have their own value system which they use to make the decision.

Or does the phrase 'primary standard of value' simply imply that furtherance of the self is inherently more important due to our nature as beings who decide?

Can this be surely stated? Who can say that furtherance of the self must be the primary standard of value? It is true that humans show a great instinct for self-preservation. Is this statement a result of observation of this phenomenon?

Is it natural for us to disregard all other value systems, in favour of this one primary one?

In what sense is having a different value system 'wrong'? Isn't one of Objectivism's fundamentals the right of the individual to choose? Surely this is in contradiction to the automatic assumption that Objectivists believe primarily in the furtherance of the self.

It seems to me that Objectivists are inherently individual, in the sense that they choose based on their own value system, according to their own choice. How can they then be regarded as a collective?

"Anything goes"

Surely this includes standards of value other than the furtherance of the self?

How do you (Objectivists) refute this contradiction?

Post 13

Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
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Matthew Graybosch:

In relation to my question above, and your comments to Tommy previously, to Chaos with you, buddy.

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