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Post 0

Monday, January 5, 2004 - 4:37pmSanction this postReply
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I have had a fundamental change in opinion. At last I feel I am starting to realise what is important.

1: You control your own life. This is fundamentally important. If you want a job done properly, you've got to do it yourself. Waiting on other people will only make you frustrated.

2: Life has value. There are two possibilities. Either life has value, or it doesn't. If life has no value, you might as well shoot yourself. There is no reason to live, to get out of bed, etc, if life has no value. If life has no value, finding happiness is impossible. How can you be happy if your life is meaningless? Therefore it is reasonable to assume life has value.

3: It is right to attain value. Since our life has some value, whatever that is, it is right that we try to fulfill it, to attain that value. Otherwise, why are we living?

4: We need to further our life. Since the purpose of living is to attain value, whatever that is, it stands to reason that we need to be alive to attain such value. Therefore we need to see to it that we stay alive, hence we need to assume life as the moral standard.

5: We should act in ways to further our life. Since we need to further our life, and life is our moral standard, we should act in ways that make our life more prosperous, etc. Sitting idly by has no value.

6: It is in our self-interest to be benevolent. Since people have much to offer us, helping them and being kind to them results in us helping ourselves. Civility costs nothing, and has much reward.

7: We must act on our beliefs. The only way to further our knowledge is to form opinions from our knowledge, and then act upon them and view the consequences. Having beliefs but no acting on them is self-defeating.

8: Proving ourselves is likely to be worth it. By proving ourselves, we learn that what we believed is true. The other option is to put stock in our abilities and regard our assumption as true, without the proof. However, in going through the motions of doing the deed we have another experience to draw knowledge from. We have a reliable source of knowledge of our continued capability in that regard. Our proving ourselves might make other people believe in us more readily, which will lead to benefits for us. Proving to others who doubt is helping us in the long run, and potentially helping them too.

9: We must go our own way. We are all different, and as long as we use reason in our judgements, we aren't bound by societal roles, flippant expectations, etc.

10: Spiting ourselves to help others is unnecesary in almost all cases. Since our life must be our moral standard, self-sacrifice without due cause is self-defeating.

I wish I had seen a nice representation of this sooner, it would have saved much wasted time.

Post 1

Monday, January 5, 2004 - 6:06pmSanction this postReply
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A philosophy of self-interest... that sounds vaguely familiar...

Just kidding. Congratulations on your epiphany, and enjoy Atlas Shrugged.

Post 2

Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 1:00pmSanction this postReply
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I quote from Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand, from Section 2 Chapter 1: The man who belonged on earth. It's a conversation between Hank Rearden and a governmental employee. 'R' denotes Rearden, 'G' denotes the governmental employee.


(G) "Nobody has ever refused to sell an essential commodity to the government. As a matter of fact, the law does not permit you to refuse to sell your Metal to any consumer, let alone the government."

(R) "Well, why don't you arrest me, then?"

(G) "Mr. Rearden, this is an amicable discussion. Why speak of such things as arrests?"

(R) "Isn't that your ultimate argument against me?"

(G) "Why bring it up?"

(R) "Isn't it implied in every sentence of this discussion?"

(G) "Why name it?"

(R) "Why not?" There was no answer. "Arc you trying to hide from me the fact that if it weren't for that trump card of yours, I wouldn't have allowed you to enter this office?"

(G) "But I'm not speaking of arrests."

(R) "I am."

(G) "I don't understand you, Mr. Rearden."

(R) "I am not helping you to pretend that this is any sort of amicable discussion. It isn't. Now do what you please about it."


In the context, Hank Rearden refuses to comply with a governmental order, which is against the law. You can see here he holds on illusion about the governmental employee's purpose.

Upon reading this, I found myself thinking that the governmental employee should proceed to arrest Mr. Rearden, because ultimately that is what he is there to do. Even though I disagree with the legitimacy of the law in that case, I don't disagree that it must be enforced. Only through its application can its legitimacy be tested.

At this point I realised this sentiment can be applied elsewhere. People preach all the time about how homosexuality is something natural, that people are born with a specific sexuality, and other such hogwash. The same sentiment can be applied to this. Recognising people's right to determine their own actions does not necessarily imply that you think such actions are worthwhile, or warranted in any way. Accepting people's choices doesn't mean you can't think they are fools for choosing as they have.

I recall a scene in one of the Crocodile Dundee movies where Mick is in a high-rise building and wants to go for a smoke break and steps out onto the balcony. He notices somebody nearby who is threatening to jump to his death. Instead of the expected response, something like 'No, don't jump', he speaks to him completely normally, as though he sees this type of thing all the time, and has no problem with it. This shocks the jumper completely. Mick even tells him 'could you hurry up please'.

The jumper ends up not jumping. Mick put the full responsibility for the jump on the shoulders of the jumper. He basically told him in not so many words 'if you want to jump, jump, it's got nothing to do with me'. This is a good strategy, because typically people who are trying to commit suicide believe they are doing it because of what somebody else, or society in general, did to them, to pay them back by sacrificing themselves.

When Mick gave the jumper all the responsibility, suddenly he wasn't prepared to accept it. It was fine when it was somebody else forcing him to do it, but when it was his decision he wasn't prepared to make it.

This same sentiment can be applied to the restriction of liberty. The use of drugs is a good example. Drugs are illegal, but nobody who is in the know can deny that vast numbers of young people take drugs, and in scary amounts. They are like the jumper, taking drugs because it is something disallowed, escaping society's leash. Making such drugs legal has the result of making the decision to take drugs totally their responsibility. While it does have the effect to make taking it seem more okay, it has the much greater effect of making the individual solely responsible for that choice. Similar to the jumper, many people won't be prepared to accept the responsibility, especially when drugs lose their rebel image.

In the same way that many people have no desire to peruse sex shops, even though they are legal, so too many people will have no desire to take drugs. In the long term it is better to allow it and enable people to rely on their own value judgements, than entice them into it by restricting them. Only in applying a theory can we test it. While we can provide advice and evidence to the folly of such pursuits, if in the face of such evidence the person makes a judgement to try it, by refusing them that right we inhibit their ability to develop.

This is a vast change in what I thought, and comes out of this thinking. I thought to myself that it didn't matter that drugs aren't legal, because it isn't good to take them. I then thought about gun laws. I have always supported the rights of people to own handguns for protection or for recreational use. I have never owned a gun, nor lived in a house with a gun available, but many people in South Africa do own guns. My view on this has been that guns don't kill people, people kill people. A gun in the hands of a responsible person isn't a dangerous thing. Many people oppose this view, especially europeans it seems. I figured it was okay for the government to allow people to have guns, following my views on it.

There is a trend here that I realised. The things that government prohibits or allows that I felt were okay were typically the things I held the same opinion of. In a way, I was accepting government's opinions in that regard because they were the same as my opinions. What I was doing was thinking that it is okay restrict things I think should be restricted, and allow things I think should be allowed.

The gist of this is that I wanted the decision on what should be allowed or not. As they say, power corrupts. While I might believe that I wouldn't be corrupted in a position of power, I can't know of any other person whether they will be corrupted or not. How can we know? Even if we find a person that we collectively believe won't be corrupted, and is very objective, typically they will disagree with some of our opinions about what should be allowed or not. In the face of such disagreement, we would then need to override our own opinion on the matter, and take their opinion to be true above ours, without rational basis.

Who can put such faith in another man's opinions about how we ourselves should act? It is highly debatable that such a person would even be found, because typically people would vote for those candidates that see things 'their way'. This is typically how society works now, we choose the party that supports our views. In doing that, we then necessarily relinquish control into their hands. In choosing the party we support we are in a way wanting things to be 'our way'. We want to choose how things must be done, we want the power.

This is such a radical change to my earlier thinking it is startling. We need to realise that we only have the right to make decisions about how we live our own lives, not how other people conduct theirs. In giving each person full control of their actions, we relegate the responsibility of such actions solely to them. Nobody told them to do it, they took it upon themselves to do it. Since the responsibility of the actions we choose is solely ours, we will then necessarily be more cautious in what we choose to do. As a result, the population in general will become more aware of their responsibilities, as any shirking of responsibility will lead the blame straight to them. A responsible population is something the world has never had.

-- continued --

Post 3

Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 1:01pmSanction this postReply
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-- continued --

Let me say that at this time I don't disagree with the law insisting a health warning be placed on all cigarette packets. At this time I don't see this as an infringement of people's rights. There is much evidence that smoking has detrimental effects on our health, and letting people know about this seems to be a good thing. The current health warnings are a little strongly worded though, typically sounding like 'smoking causes cancer'. Such unqualified statements don't have the effect they are trying to have.

With such a direct statement, it can be seen as the government wanting people not to smoke. This is especially true in light that most people, including myself, don't know if smoking has ever been causally linked to cancer, or whether it is a conclusion that was jumped to. Regardless, it cannot be denied that smoking is detrimental to your health. Maybe a more truthful warning would be more appropriate, such as 'Smoking is detrimental to your health, and is potentially a cause of lung cancer'. This is informative, while not being instructive.

The reason I dislike such affirmative statements as 'smoking causes cancer', especially when I don't know it to be proved accurate, is it sounds very similar to the type of propaganda spewed by activists, statements like 'It has been proven that people living in the vicinity of nuclear power stations have an increased chance of childhood leukaemia and birth defects.' I heard this exact statement on the news, spoken by an activist who was against the use of nuclear power stations. This statement is a complete lie, and anybody would would say it as truth is dishonest. The truth is in the close vicinity of Koeberg, South Africa's only nuclear power station, the levels of radiation are less than the naturally occuring levels in other parts of the country.

I am wholly against such dishonesty. I would appreciate opinions on whether it is right to impose a health warning on cigarette packets. Does the government have the right to warn the public in an honest and unbiased way, based on scientific study? Or is it sabotaging a legitimate product of the free market?

Post 4

Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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I can answer that. Yes, the government does have a place in making companies be honest about their products. If I sell you a car on the condition that it works, and you later find that it doesn't, I have committed fraud. Fraud is a type of theft, and theft is considered an initiation of force. Government is therefore justified in taking action against me.

Even though you consentually gave me your money, you did so on the condition that you were going to recieve a working car. Since I never gave you a working car, the deal is considered incomplete. You still have the right to your money.

I have thought about this a lot. Laws against libel (telling lies in print) are against my right to tell lies. I should be allowed to say whatever I like. However, if I try to sell you a paper and I say that it is news, and you buy it on the condition that it is true, then I have committed fraud.

I realize I have gotten somewhat off topic. The government doesn't need to warn people. It is enough to make sure that companies are not being fraudulent.

Post 5

Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 3:09pmSanction this postReply
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Tommy: We're pretty much on the same wavelength but I don't think that the government should "make sure that companies are not being fraudulent." IMO it's enough that the courts prosecute those who actually commit fraud. It's not the function of government to oversee the actions of all companies, or individuals, for that matter.

It's up to individuals to do their own due diligence in investigating products that they consume. In the case of tobacco, when I was a teenager in the '50s it was common knowledge even then that tobacco was bad for you and we called cigarettes "coffin' nails" (pun intended). I'm a firm believer that institutions such as Consumers' Union should replace government oversight and regulatory functions such as the FDA, and OSHA.

Post 6

Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 4:53pmSanction this postReply
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"It's not the function of government to oversee the actions of all companies, or individuals, for that matter."

I think we are on the same wavelength. It is not a crime until it is committed. I am in no way suggesting that the government break into corporations to search for "potential" fraud cases. Only punish the theif when a case arises.

"It's up to individuals to do their own due diligence in investigating products that they consume."

Agreed. However, I believe it is also the duty of the seller to be up front and honest about the nature of their product, especially if there is something about the product that isn't apparent right away.

For instance: I sell you a television at a garage sale. I know that the inside of the television is hollowed out and filled with bricks. When you buy the TV, you are buying it with the assumption that it is an ordinary TV, not a worthless box. I have a responsibility to tell you about the bricks.

This topic reminds me of Fat People V. McDonalds. Since it is apparent what burgers will do to you if eaten irresponsibly, I feel the responsibility lies entirely upon the consumer. However, if McDonalds sold someone a burger infected with Mad Cow Disease, then a lawsuit against McDonalds would be justified. I paid for a fattening burger, not a fattening diseased burger.

"I'm a firm believer that institutions such as Consumers' Union should replace government oversight and regulatory functions such as the FDA, and OSHA."

Please tell me more about the Consumers' Union, and how it can replace the FDA

Post 7

Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
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Nothing should replace the FDA. It should be acknowledged as an institution responsible for countless deaths, promptly burned to the ground, and its officials jailed.
An independent, scientific rating system should be put in its place, with full freedom of anyone to take any medicine desires as long as they have no negative effects on people around you.

Post 8

Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 6:35amSanction this postReply
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Geesh, it posted before I was done. I was also gonna say that all laws restricting sale of medications (so-called "prescription" drugs, and anti-free-trade restrictions) should be repealed, and that the government should get the hell out of our health. It's the most precious thing we have - well, that and guns.

Post 9

Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
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Tommy: Firstly, there should be no restrictions on what adults can put in their bodies; hamburgers, prescription drugs, recreational drugs or nitric acid for that matter. Government should never provide a service that individuals, coupled with a free market, can do for themselves.

Given an Objectivist/libertarian state without an FDA, I believe that some, or most, citizens would like guidance on what substances are appropriate for them and they would be willing to pay for the advice. For that reason I think that a number of competitive companies similar in function to Consumers’ Union would evolve. They would perform extensive testing on pharmaceutical products, much as the FDA does now. People would subscribe to their reports and the companies would have pharmacists and doctors registered with them. Thus medical treatment would be consistent with the philosophy of the particular company. Citizens would have a choice. The profit of the company would be completely dependent on its credibility and record of effectiveness. Other companies would also evolve to rate those pseudo FDA companies. Investigative journalism would also play a part, as it does today. Lower income citizens who might not be able to afford the subscription to the service would benefit by a trickle down effect and word of mouth.

Paul

Post 10

Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 9:48amSanction this postReply
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Excellent summary, Francois.

The most recent irrational initiation of force by the FDA is to take away more of our freedom with the upcoming U.S. ban on commercial ephedra/ephedrine alkaloids (dietary supplement used for weight-loss). I may put together and post a critical review of this "mystics of muscle" atrocity in the near future.

Ed

Post 11

Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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What do you think then about drug tests in sport, and should athletes be allowed to use steroids in professional sporting events?

Incidentally, does such professional sporting events like the Olympic Games make sense under Objectivism?

Post 12

Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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The professional sports events should be privately owned and thus they should set the rules for the athletes participating. If the athletes want to comply with lax rules and the fans want to pay to see them perform then no one has been coerced.

There was a Saturday Live Skit of the "All Drugs Olympics" where no drugs were banned. The weightlifters lifted weights so heavy that they tore their arms off. I don't think fans would want to see events that encourage athletes to abuse their bodies and the privately owned companies that allowed it would go bust.

The population is enherently fair minded and would want to see the athletes succeed on their natural abilities, not on their ability to tolerate drugs.

The teams competing in the Olympic Games are an extension of the participating states. The athletes get various compensations and support from their governments at tax payer expense. For this reason I don't think Objectivists would support them.

Post 13

Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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"Tommy: Firstly, there should be no restrictions on what adults can put in their bodies; hamburgers, prescription drugs, recreational drugs or nitric acid for that matter."

I never said there should be. I only want the government to enter the picture if there has been fraud involved.

"Government should never provide a service that individuals, coupled with a free market, can do for themselves."

I see how many services of the FDA and other such "moderaters" could and should be done away with. However, I still recognize a need for an agency to prosecute someone who sells me poison and tells me it's water.

Post 14

Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 3:34pmSanction this postReply
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Tommy: I'm not arguing with you. I support a government justice system and courts as legitimate, objectivist institutions. An individual shouldn't mete out justice, as that would be anarchy. You could sue someone who sells you poison. You don't need "the government" to initiate proceedings for you in a civil matter. The courts could, and should prosecute in criminal matters, just as they do now.

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