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Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 2:42pmSanction this postReply
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This would typically be an article, but it seems non-members can't post articles, so instead I have posted it here. Comments are welcome.

"I cannot tell a lie." When this is said, it usually means the speaker is compelled for some reason to tell the truth. Generally, this statement is issued in respect of some odious action which was performed by the speaker, and who is now confessing to the deed.

Of course, it is not completely true. Anybody can lie. There is no man on this planet who is incapable of lying. Is this statement true? Surely it isn't, because it states something that is false. Should we then, upon hearing this statement said, debunk the speaker on his lying? Should we point out his misdeed? We can't tolerate liars at the best of times, more so when somebody is professing to be honest. That's exactly what he is trying to say with this statement, that he is compelled to tell the truth.

And herein lies the crux of the matter. He is telling us is that there is reason for him not to lie. Also, by stating it so firmly with 'cannot', he is conveying the gravity of the cause, and in doing so trying to reassure us of his honesty, to assuage any mistrust we might have of him. While you might argue that he should have said something like 'I find compelling reasons not to lie', his stating it firmly with 'cannot' is a literary device not meant to be taken literally. It is not a statement of fact about his capacity for lying.

The meaning therefore is not explicit. We should have seen this from the context, that it wasn't meant in the literal sense. This phenomenon is prevalent in spoken and written language, where often the literal meaning is not the right one. Recognising this is part of mastering the language in question.

This is not primarily what I wanted to address, but it is important nonetheless. I will proceed now with the story of a madman, living in a mental asylum, who was eligible for release. He had to undergo a lie-detector test, to be released if he passed. One of the questions was 'Are you Napoleon?'. He wasn't Napoleon. His answer was 'No', but the machine showed he was lying.

In what sense was he lying? He wasn't really lying, he was not Napoleon. What he said was true, so how could he have lied? In actuality he believed beyond all measure of doubt that he was indeed Napoleon. He had the sense to say that he wasn't Napoleon, and we might presume he knew he would only be released if he said he wasn't. However, he spoke against his own belief, against his belief of the truth. He lied.

This nicely illustrates the ambiguity of truth. On the one hand there is what is actually true, and on the other hand there is what the individual believes to be true. In judging whether a speaker is dishonest, we must first ascertain what they believe to be true.

It is said that an honest man is one who tells the truth. We can now see this is potentially ambiguous, and needs clarification. Anybody can have misconceptions of the truth. Therefore, I prefer this definition: "An honest man is one who says what he believes to be true, and tells when he knows not what the truth is."

When judging the truth-teller from the liar, let's try to distinguish those cases where the speaker is dishonest from those cases where the speaker is misguided. We are only human; any one of us can be misguided at times.

Post 1

Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 5:22pmSanction this postReply
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http://www.solohq.com/Submission_Guidelines.shtml

Post 2

Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 5:13pmSanction this postReply
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Sometimes people believe their own lies. Ever noticed that ? What is your point ? I think you are a liar, therefore I am ?

(^_____^)

Post 3

Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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I think you are a bullshitter, howz that?

Post 4

Friday, January 16, 2004 - 3:39pmSanction this postReply
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You may believe whatever you like, but please leave our board. We are not interested in your views. Take your lies elsewhere, okay ?

Post 5

Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 12:18pmSanction this postReply
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You are a dickhead.

Post 6

Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 12:32pmSanction this postReply
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Bernard, I have some things to say.

Quote: "We are not interested in your views."

Funny how you use the word 'we' in that sentence, generalising just a little. Why are you even here? If you aren't interested in my views, I assume you aren't interested in anyone's views then. Why do you participate in this forum? If you don't care for anyone's views, why read them on this site?

In case you have notices, most of the threads have people discussing their viewpoints. That's what seem to be good about this forum. You are missing the point.

I have said before that an idea withheld is worthless. It is useless having an idea or opinion but not expressing it. I don't expect you to agree with what I say, and want you to present an argument if this is the case. I want to learn.

To say that you aren't interested is stupid though.

Quote: "Sometimes people believe their own lies."

Did you read my first post above, about liars? If you did, you would know it is impossible for someone to believe their own lies, since a person lies when they say something they know not to be true. The mental patient lied when he said we wasn't Napoleon, even though he really wasn't Napoleon.

Saying that some people believe their own lies is to redefine what a lie is. My definition above is essentially what a lie is. Something that isn't true is a falsehood. Please explain your definition in this case, instead of saying 'get out now'.

The reason I want to stay is because I want to see people's views, I am interested in them.

Can't we all just get along? I really don't like arguing, it is such a waste of time.

Post 7

Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 2:32pmSanction this postReply
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I, for one, am not in the slightest offended by Mr. vertigo posting on SoloHQ, and am interested in the distinction that he makes between lies and falsehood. I shall have to ponder this matter more closely myself, but Mr. vertigo's "article" was certainly worth reading.

I observe that Bernard is acting like a childish bully/exclusionist, who, whenever challenged, replies spitefully, "Shut up! NO ONE wants to hear what you have to say!"

Discourse and debate among individuals of dissenting views are essential to the refinement of any doctrine and the discovery of new principles in any given field.

Post 8

Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 10:19amSanction this postReply
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Vertigo: I'm impressed! The more I read of your writings, the more you come across as a really intelligent and sincere person. (To think we were all ready to write you off as a wonk a few months ago! Sad.)
Anyway: there's a distinction you seem to be missing: are all 'untruths' by neccesity "lies?" To "tell the truth" is to speak in accordance with the facts of reality, that much is certain. But are you really "telling the truths" if you don't KNOW the facts of reality?
To give an example:
A trained parrot taught to utter the words "George W. Bush is the president of the United States". The parrots "statements" would not legitimately count as "telling the truth", unless the animal KNEW it was true -- unless the statement was volitional in nature.
Same thing with untruths. If I utter the phrase "Bernard is actually a malevolent cyber-intelligence from the future", and it happens not to be true, have I "lied?" No. I have simply been mistaken. There's a difference, one which is pivotal to the reason that "lying" is usually a moral wrong, in many ethical systems. "Lying" is DELIBERATE misrepresentation of the facts of reality: it must be intentional.
Thus, the individual in question (george washington, I presume) COULD legitimately have stated "I cannot tell a lie", and been factually correct, IF by such statement he meant "I am philosophically incapable of uttering deliberate falsehoods." Being mistaken about a fact does not mean that one has "lied" about that fact.

Additionally, the Polygraph (mis-named 'lie detector' in the popular press) has fundamentally been repudiated. It is based on the (false) assumption that individuals will feel stress at telling a deliberate falsehood. (This assumes, wrongly, that being "truthful" is an automatic -- nonvolitional -- act....that everybody will opt toward compliance to the facts of reality.
This has several problems, which have rendered the use of the "lie detector" completely unworkable:

1. "physiological stress" which changes the various physical parameters (such as heart rate, blood pressure, breathing, etc.), can originate from the testing process itself. This is why persons "under stress" tend to give 'inconclusive' polygraph readings.

2. Some people do not feel any stress/discomfort whatsoever at lying -- telling DELIBERATE falsehoods. This comes from the same basic reason that some people feel very "guilty" about stealing -- while others have no qualms of any kind. (The reason: emotional responses are inextricably linked to one's value system and moral code, as Miss Rand so perceptively said.)

Now, this brings up a virtal point: there IS still only "one" truth (consisting of deliberate accord with the facts of Reality.) There may be many different "beliefs" on a given subject, but it remains to be seen whether those beliefs are all "true" (deliberately in accord with Reality.)

Notice: DELIBERATE. That cannot be stressed enough. To give you an example: say somebody writes a novel, and that novel (unbeknownst to him) accurately portrays an event that later happens (such as, say, the WTC bombing.) Does that mean that the thing the writer wrote was "true" or becomes "true?" No. The writer was not DELIBERATELY attempting to be in accord with the facts of Reality.
Truth and lying are both purposive terms. The primary error comes when people drop the issue of purpose from it, and assume that any statement that HAPPENS to correspond to the facts of reality is a 'truth', and that any deviation from the facts of reality is a 'lying.'

I hope this clarified things for you, Vertigo. You are a very interesting person, my friend. Hopefully we can have many more fruitful discussions of this sort.


Bernard: calm down! Vertigo is a reasonable person (as are we all, hopefully), and there's no need for any sort of "pissing contest" of that kind. Everybody just CHILL OUT!

Post 9

Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 1:01pmSanction this postReply
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Henry, you clarified what I was saying nicely. Here are the statements from our pieces that I think sum it up nicely:

From me: "An honest man is one who says what he believes to be true, and tells when he knows not what the truth is."

From Henry: "Truth and lying are both purposive terms. The primary error comes when people drop the issue of purpose from it, and assume that any statement that HAPPENS to correspond to the facts of reality is a 'truth', and that any deviation from the facts of reality is 'lying.'"

Okay, I have some bones to pick.

Quote: "But are you really "telling the truths" if you don't KNOW the facts of reality?"

Notice in my statement above about what an honest man is. I said 'and and tells when he knows not what the truth is'. This clause specifically addresses that case. If you have no idea of something, but pretend you do, and pass a guess off as reality, you are not only potetially mistaken, you are dishonest.

Quote: "there's a distinction you seem to be missing: are all 'untruths' by neccesity 'lies?'"

Actually, notice what I said:

Quote: "On the one hand there is what is actually true, and on the other hand there is what the individual believes to be true. In judging whether a speaker is dishonest, we must first ascertain what they believe to be true."

I think this specifically impies that not all untruths are lies, because if they utter an untruth, but believe it to be true, it isn't a lie. I don't think I missed that distinction. I think it was one of the points I was trying to make. Actually, I know, because I wrote it.

Quote: "'Lying' is DELIBERATE misrepresentation of the facts of reality."

I didn't say this in so many words, although with this statement I implied it is deliberate, and a result of reason: "He had the sense to say that he wasn't Napoleon, and we might presume he knew he would only be released if he said he wasn't."

The points I was making were:

1. The word 'truth' is ambiguous generally, because it could either mean a statement in accordance with reality or a statement in accordance with what someone believes to be reality. (hence the title 'the ambiguity of truth' meaning the word 'truth')

2. You can lie, even if what you say happens to be true (the point of the madman analogy)

3. Saying something which is false doesn't make you a liar (the point of the statement 'we must first ascertain ...' from the quote above)

Thanks for your kind words at the end there Henry; although that usually doesn't have much affect on me, it did this time for some strange reason...

Post 10

Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 6:58pmSanction this postReply
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noprob, Vertigo. Keep up the good work. Actually, I think maybe I may have partially misunderstood where you were going with the article, but it seems like we're on the same page now.

If I may inquire: you stated earlier that you were reading up on Objectivism. How are you doing? What have you read so far? Any points that you would like help on?

Thanks again!

Post 11

Monday, January 19, 2004 - 4:24amSanction this postReply
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What's going on ? Merde!

I would have at least expected an answer.
(^_____^)

Post 12

Monday, January 19, 2004 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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Bernard, an answer to what exactly? I showed how your 'people believe their own lies' is impossible given the definition.

Henry, I have read Anthem, I read it first. I wasn't greatly impressed, although I will reread it after finishing Atlas Shrugged. In Atlas Shrugged I am pretty far, where Cheryl realises Jim is a fraud, Section 3 chapter 3 or so. So there are like 400 odd pages left. It's a pretty long book...

I will write about it when I am finished.

Post 13

Monday, January 19, 2004 - 6:18pmSanction this postReply
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Affirmative, Vertigo.
Anthem was my first Rand read, too. Matter of fact, it is still my favorite (for a nostalgiic, sentimental sort of reason, more than the book itself.)
Sad to say, but in reading "the fountainhead" I had to set the book aside several times, because it's a heavy read. Rand's writing style is -- I dunno what to call it? "Full-bodies?" (grin)
I'm having to do the same thing with "Atlas Shrugged". It's good, however.

Post 14

Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 10:46amSanction this postReply
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I find myself that every few pages I need to stop for a minute or two just to regain my concentration, otherwise I read a paragraph and find I haven't actually noticed what it has been saying.

You are reading Atlas Shrugged too? That's interesting to know. I haven't had to put it down as such, except for short periods. Many of the characters sound the same, unfortunately, in what they say and how they speak. I noticed this particularly with Cheryl, who speaks much too much like Dagny and other characters, where I don't think she would sound anything like them.

In particular, notice how she speaks when she speaks to Dagny about Jim.

Apart from that, there are some grammar errors which annoy me, like 'she lighted a cigarette', etc, but I am just fussy. This won't influence my critique on the story, though. I am not that petty. I will discuss the story when I have finished it (when you have finished it too).

Post 15

Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 5:43pmSanction this postReply
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The grammatical stuff isn't "errors" as such, just a rather archaic (and formal) manner of speaking. I find it amazing that Rand was able to write so fluently in english, at all. Reading "We, the living", you see the same sort of descriptive style, and some of the same dialog patterns, but her word-choices are somewhat different. It's almost as if her writing style began that way, and just got heavier and heavier.
Ditto on the dialog. Have you noticed how (for example) Dr. Stadler, Galt, Francisco, and anybody else on the "heroic" side, ALL seem very similar in characterization? And all the "villians" are the same petty, sniveling wretches. it's rather cliched, but you can see where she's going with it.
I had read all of her novels, and I remember starting to read AS (atlas shrugged) about ten years ago. Unfortunately, my copy dissapeared when I moved, so I couldn't finish it.
So when my wife and I decided to go on vacation to FLorida (to see her family, and spend Christmas, and such), I decided it would be just about long enough to provide me with a decent-length, uninterupted read all the way down, and back.
(What was I thinking....it's almost a month now, and I'm STILL 200 pages left to read yet!)

Post 16

Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 10:29pmSanction this postReply
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vertigo - " I find myself that every few pages I need to stop for a minute or two just to regain my concentration, otherwise I read a paragraph and find I haven't actually noticed what it has been saying."

Hah! You sound like my mother in law. Can't concentrate for more than ten seconds !

"Apart from that, there are some grammar errors which annoy me, like 'she lighted a cigarette', etc, but I am just fussy."

Er . . that is correct grammar actually !
(^______________________^)

Post 17

Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 10:27amSanction this postReply
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Quote: "Hah! You sound like my mother in law. Can't concentrate for more than ten seconds !"

Funny one. You really crack me up. Actually, I have been reading since about the start of the year, and am on the chapter called 'The Egoist', wihch is right near the end, so I think I am making good progress.

Quote: "Er . . that is correct grammar actually !"

No. The word lighted is wrong. The past simple of 'she lights a cigarette' is 'she lit a cigarette', at least in normal English. American english is slightly different sometimes. There are others, but this was a very slight annoyance, nothing major.

Henry, I am just past Galt's speech. Alone, it would make the book worth reading...

Post 18

Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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I read Atlas Shrugged in less than one week. I was on vacation, and I literally read from dawn till dusk (with a few exceptions for swimming and such). About a week after I had read it, I realized that it was my favorite book.

About a month after that, I realized I was an Objectivist.

Francisco is just SO COOL. I love the trick he pulls with the giant calender, and I love the speech he gives about money.

Post 19

Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 4:07pmSanction this postReply
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Quote: "Francisco is just SO COOL."

My favourite character in this book is definitely Ragnar Danneskjold, but you'll have to wait for my reasons for saying this.

I will discuss it when I am done.

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