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Post 0

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 1:45pmSanction this postReply
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Does anyone here really believe World War II, Korea, and Vietnam could have been fought with an all-volunteer force?

Post 1

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 4:33pmSanction this postReply
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That's a really good question.

Any and every war can be fought with an all volunteer army, you just won’t necessarily win.

I think perhaps WW2 could have been “won” in Europe without a draft. We could have continued to supply the British and Soviets with aid and concentrated our smaller army in establishing air superiority. Our involvement in North Africa and Italy may have been somewhat superfluous. A smaller continental invasion force might have been practical after the Nazi’s and Communists bashed each other for a bit more. However, such a scenario would probably have left the entire continent as Communist after the war, which probably isn’t such a good thing. This being said, it is a somewhat parasitical role to expect other countries to do all the fighting for us.

In the Pacific, we certainly could have defended our shores and Hawaii from Japanese aggression with very little force, because they weren’t interested in much more than they got (in our direction) in the very opening stages. Maybe with liberal use of the atomic bomb we could have eventually brought anyone to unconditional surrender.

Probably in the case of the Korean War, we couldn’t have fought with an all volunteer army. With a volunteer army, we probably wouldn’t have had enough forces lying around that MacArthur could scrape together the Inchon landing so quickly and recaptured the south of the peninsula. I have a good friend from South Korea, and it’s really something to think about what a great, vibrant first world economy they have there. There are more high speed Internet connections than the US. We get a lot of our electronics from there. The entire world is far better off because we fought at least the first part of the Korean War, not to mention all the South Koreans from the last generation and this, and for generations to come that will have a great life instead of famine and tyranny. Look at all the good that came from forcing US citizens to fight for freedom. It doesn’t make the draft right, but it does make one think.


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Post 2

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 8:33amSanction this postReply
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Every war should be fought be with an all-volunteer force. Any war that cannot be fought with an all-volunteer force because there are not enough volunteers is not a war worth fighting. I will go as far as to say that an all-volunteer force, all else being equal, can fight a war better than conscripts, even if the conscripts outnumber the volunteers by a respectable margin. The morale, discipline, and training of conscripts does not compare to that of professional soldiers. I have some first-hand experience in this regard. The Coalition forces that invaded Afghanistan and Iraq were outnumbered by the enemy. The conventional wisdom is that invaders have to outnumber defenders by 2-to-1. I can tell you that the enemy did not stand a chance! It was a massacre for them. For all those American casualties in Fallujah you hear about in the news, they do not tell you the dozens, no, hundreds of Iraqis they took with them. This was also the case in Somalia and Kosovo.

Since you asked about World War II, Korea, and Vietnam, I obviously have no first-hand experience there, but I will share with you what I know about one of the largest all-volunteer force that participated in all those wars: the United States Marine Corps. The Corps has been the only service in history that has never had to depend on a draft. Nobody can make a man a Marine. A man has to earn that title by choice. All the major battles they have fought in were against an army of conscripts and draftees. Often, the enemy had numerical superiority and were defending a fortified position, yet the Marines prevailed time and again. In the Battle of Chosin Reservoir, the 1st Marine Division (the unit I am serving with now) were retreating from Chinese divisions pouring into North Korea. During that "retreat" (the Marines call it a "retrograde movement" to this day), the 1st Marine Division smashed about 10 Chinese divisions into kingdom come.

There is some debate about who is the greatest group of warriors in history. Is it the Spartan hoplites? The Japanese samurai? The Apache braves? I can say with some pride that it is none of the above. It is the American fighting man. All those warriors were good in their own right but they all embraced mysticism, collectivism, and altruism. The American GI is an individualist. Sit in a barracks one day and all you hear is the men bitching about how "jacked up" their officers and senior enlisted and how they can make things better if they ran the show. The Japanese samurai would committ ritual suicide before thinking about dishonoring their superiors! Americans are too practical for that. But each of those men would go down for their brothers-in-arms, not because it is their unchosen obligation to a god-like Emperor, but because they choose to pursue their values in their own way. The results of a clash between those two cultures speaks volumes. In the Battle of Tarawa, the Japanese commander boasted it would take a million Americans a century to root the Japanese from their positions. It took the Marines 76 hours.

Note: I edited my post to correct a couple grammatical errors.

(Edited by Byron Garcia on 4/28, 8:54am)

(Edited by Byron Garcia on 4/28, 8:58am)


Post 3

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 8:45amSanction this postReply
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Byron, thank you for a wonderful post! 

I share your admiration for the Marines and America's fighting men in general. It had never occurred to me that Marines are never drafted. Makes sense.

And I absolutely agree that the draft is evil.

Do you by chance watch JAG?  If so, have you seen the episode with the Marine who was one of the "Chosin few"? Very moving, to say the least.


Post 4

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I watch "JAG" every so often, but not religiously. It is not very realistic but I appreciate it as a Romantic Realist take on the Navy and Marine Corps. I did not see that particular episode but I will be sure to look up a synopsis to see what it was about.

Semper Fi!


Post 5

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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Byron said: The [Marine] Corps has been the only service in history that has never had to depend on a draft.

Sorry, but that isn't true.  During the Vietnam War, specifically in 1969, prior to the Draft Lottery, one in ten of the draftees were taken into the Marines.  This was one of the main reasons that I enlisted in the Army, when my name came up in the draft.  A friend who graduated from college the year before me, and who went to graduate school right away, was taken out of graduate school (they stopped giving deferments for graduate school in 1969) and put in the Marines.

Thanks,
Glenn


Post 6

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn,

You are right and I thank you for pointing that out. I did overlook that there was a period in the history of the Corps that a draft was implemented. If I remember my "Guidebook for Marines" correctly, Vietnam was the only period in the history of the Corps were they were conscripts and it was a relatively brief period (compared to their 228+ year history). Even for that period of time, I am sure conscripts were but a minority of the Marine Corps. This makes some sense because Vietnam was a war America should not have been involved in (the Marines had to look for more than a "few good men"). In spite of that dark period of history, the Marine Corps has essentially been an all-volunteer force, in the same tradition as the Army Airborne Rangers or the Special Forces.


Post 7

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 1:50pmSanction this postReply
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Byron,

I should have pointed out that I appreciated your post.  I agree with you that: "Nobody can make a man a Marine. A man has to earn that title by choice."  I respect the military in general and the Marines in particular.  I avoided going into the Marines because I knew that they couldn't make me one and I didn't want them to try.

As far as this thread is concerned, I couldn't agree more with the idea that the military draft is wrong.  As Rand said in "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal", p. 226: "Of all the statist violations of individual rights in a mixed economy, the military draft is the worst."

Thanks,
Glenn


Post 8

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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I dusted off my "Guidebook for Marines" and I found an additional error I should correct. The 1st Marine Division did not smash 10 divisions of the Chinese Liberation Army as I wrote in post 2. They did face a force of 10 divisions that was sent to annihilate them at the Chosin Reservoir but they only smashed seven of them. This while "bringing out all operable equipment", "properly evacuating their wounded and dead", and "maintaining tactical integrity" (to quote the publication). I can only imagine what was on the minds of the other three divisions! Poor bastards. To paraphrase General George S. Patton, American soldiers do not win wars by dying for their country. They win wars by letting the enemy die for theirs.

This correction does not change the essence of my post but I did want to keep the historical facts straight in light of the other correction.


Post 9

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 10:51pmSanction this postReply
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A question in regards to military service and John Galts Oath:

John Galts Oath:
     I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
I can see very clearly that an Objectivist who has joined the military is doing so to protect his own way of life. 

However, the last part is a foggy area when you apply it to military service.  "Nor ask another man to live for mine"

Is Objectivist who does not join the military break Galts Oath by asking another man to live for that Objectivists life?

Regards,

Eric J. Tower


Post 10

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 11:31pmSanction this postReply
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quote:
I can see very clearly that an Objectivist who has joined the military is doing so to protect his own way of life. 

However, the last part is a foggy area when you apply it to military service.  "Nor ask another man to live for mine"

Is Objectivist who does not join the military break Galts Oath by asking another man to live for that Objectivists life?

I think this question kind of answers itself.  You have said that an Objectivist (and, I would add, anyone else) who joins the military does so to protect his own way of life.  If that is true, all that an Objectivist who doesn't join the military asks of those who do is that they live for their own sake (i.e. protect their own ways of life.)


Post 11

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 1:11amSanction this postReply
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Andrew,

Before you add 'anyone else' in there remember that though people who join the military end up protecting their own interests there are still those who's explinations for joining are not their self-interests.  The altruist idea of dying for your country?  Sacrificing one's self for anothers freedom?  Its in the intent I would think.

My Question is better phrased:

Presumably any time an objectivist nation would head off to war it would be to defend its own self-interest.
Therefore it would be in the interests of the people of that nation to defend it.

I respect those who join greatly and without them I doubt I would have what little bit of a place to persue my self-interest that I have.  But what I am getting at is, their actions of self defence ultimatly defended me, do I hold an Obligation to them for what they have done?

Trader Principle:
The principle of attaining value from other people through mutually beneficial trade rather than force, fraud, or parasitism. It is the principle that one should consume as much as he earns, no more and no less. People should interact with each other peacefully and for mutual gain.
  The value they have offered me is clear, what value have I offered them?  Since I have not joined and did not fight with them is this a form of parasitism?  Is being a free rider a form of parasitism or is this problem perhaps better likened to what occurs in a capitalist enviroment when technological advances take place that inadvertently do good for everyone?

If this is unclear let me know,

~E.


Post 12

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 6:58amSanction this postReply
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Eric,

If I understand your question correctly, you are asking what obligation a civilian has to a servicemember? My answer to that is none because there are no unchosen obligations. We are, in a way, trading value for value. I help defend the country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. You pay the taxes that puts a roof over my head, food on my table, and cash in my pocket every payday (among other benefits). Of course, in a perfect world, there would be no taxes and all financing for the military would be in the form of voluntary contributions. The principle would remain the same. Even if, in this perfect world, the majority of civilians did not contribute money to finance the military, as I am sure will be the case, there will be a few who will. These few would probably be the rich, for it is they that stand the most to lose if their country loses a war. It does not matter that everyone else did not contribute money because I would still have a roof over my head, food on my table, and cash in my pocket. Everyone else can enjoy the values produced by the few who serve in the military or contributed money to it. They would only be "parasites" or "free riders" if, say, they forced someone else to serve in the military without his or her consent (i.e. the draft).


Post 13

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 5:14pmSanction this postReply
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Is there someone here with an economics background? Can they explain to me how the idea of purely volunteer defence forces escapes the logic of the "free-rider" principle? ( And do so without appeals to a hypothetical "perfect world" scenario of one sort or another)

- Daniel



Post 14

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 6:02pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Barnes,

I do not pretend to be a professional economist by any means but I will give your question a shot (though I thought my previous post should have sufficed). If I remember the college economics courses I took hoping it will teach me how to get rich (it didn't), the so-called "free rider problem" is the idea that one or more individuals may benefit from a good or service that they did not pay for in cash or kind. An example my economics textbook gave was the tenants of high-rise apartments who can watch from their balconies a baseball game playing at a nearby baseball stadium. It is often used by some economists to justify government stepping in and taking steps to correcting this "injustice" or "market failure". The steps these economists propose sometimes include regulation (whether for or against the "interests" of a private firm or industry) or even nationalization of a private firm or an industry. I think in that case study the city passed laws preventing the construction of housing over a certain height within a certain distance from a sporting arena.

Not exactly the most technical of definitions (I'm only a non-com) but assuming this is what you meant by the "free rider problem", I am not sure how it applies to the military because the military is already owned and operated by the government, both in the real world and a hypothetical Objectivist "perfect world". It is the function of the government to secure the rights of the its citizens. In particular, the military is supposed to defend its citizens from foreign enemies who would infringe on those rights (even though the government I work for is an expert on that!). But no serviceman does so out of charity. As I wrote in my previous post, I have a roof over my head, three squares a day, and a fat check in my bank every 1st and 15th of the month. On top of that, my health care and dental care are 100% free. I shop at rock-bottom prices at the PX (and discounts everywhere else I go). I do not worry about getting the pink slip. And I get to retire at the ripe old age of 40 with a life-time pension! Man, if there are any "free riders" in this relationship, it is probably me! Seriously, the money to pay for these perks comes from the very people who have real jobs.

Speaking of real jobs, the last time I listened to an economist I almost bought this fairy tale about the New Economy and the law of supply and demand going out the window. Good thing I fell asleep during that part of the lecture otherwise I'd be one of the poor suckers who bought .com stocks like they were cool.


Post 15

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 7:23pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Byron,

The question of a volunteer army is closely related to the question of how it should be paid for: by voluntary or compulsory means. Indeed, it is basically the same problem.

The logic of the free rider problem is similar to what you say, but is actually a deeper and nastier problem.

Let's say there are 1,000,000 income earners in a nation. There is no taxation, funding defense is entirely voluntary. Everyone decides to to put in 10% of their income to fund defence, giving us, say, a cool billion dollar budget - not bad for a little country. (We're poor, we only make $10,000 a year too...;-))

Everyone, that is, *except me*.

Basically, I will still get just as well defended as anyone else - no-one will miss my $1,000 contribution to the billion - *plus* I get to have 10% more income - quite a lot when you're only on $10k a year. So it's clearly in my rational self-interest not to pay. And who's going to make me anyway?

You can see where this leads to. Basically, as this idea catches on the weight of free riders rises to the point the system - which will have fixed commitments which it can't change at the drop of a hat - can't stand it, and must ask for more money to survive. Where's it going to come from? The "free-riders"? Not likely!! They're on to a good thing. So the army must appeal to people who are already paying for more...

But these people actually don't feel like paying more, cos for the last five years they've watched X% of the population get richer than them at the rate of 10% per year, at their expense, and their original feelings of rational good will can only be sucked in so far! Dammit, that no-good brother of mine is 50% richer than me now! Why should we pay? And so they stop too. So the budget gets cut further...making it very hard to attract volunteers in the first place...and which your aggressive neighbouring country notes with great interest...

See what I mean? This is why such systems became compulsory in the first place. And it is related, because the more reliable the funding for an army, the more likely you will be to attract and retain good volunteers, and then - crucially - the *less* likely a draft will be necessary !!!

- Daniel










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Post 16

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel I think what you are illustrating is the failure of humanity to think in the long-term.

You said:
So it's clearly in my rational self-interest not to pay. And who's going to make me anyway?
Its actualy in his short-term interest not to pay, but it is in his long-term interest to pay because his contributions protect the very 10K a year job, that he works, from airplane loads of terrorists.  In finance they teach you that reliable long-term cashflows above the rate of interest can be much better than short-term cashflows with high risk.   Rational self-interest is in long-term reliable cashflows, such as that 10K job over your life time.  Instead of that 10K job over the next 5 years until some country overruns us and destroys our economy.  ( I will not say that most people ever come close to persueing their long-term rational self-interest.  Except for maybe an economists wet dream.)

However, if you did do a completely volunteer finance of the military in a society with seperation of Church, State and Economy you would not nessisarily have to rely entirely upon only donations which are not easily coaxed out of people who do not act in their long-term rational self interest. 

If you have ever done fund raising for Non-profits you know that fund raising efforts need to be shit loads more creative than just "we do good things, give us money"  ::hold out the tin cup:: 

There are other methods though that are usualy ignored heres a few:

Upon the transition to such an economy you would have any money that was generated from selling off state owned assets, since between the federal, state and local level the government owns about 50% of the land.  This would go for a pretty penny.  Plus any publicly owned intangible assets like the airwaves, etc.  All of this would wrack up lots of money which could be entrusted to a private finance firm for investment purposes.

So instead of a flat 1 billion a year as you noted, it would gain in value every year or so on top of donations.  The spending habbits of the military would be checked by the private firm(s) because it is in the interest of those firms to keep the money making money and not tie is up in useless spending.  And the military would not be able to directly weild their cash and force to attempt to influence the market.

As noted on the link above to methods of finance there is also the Flat Citizen Fee option.

Citizens could be provided special priviledges in the government.
        Voting Power
        Run for public office (not a priviledge i would want)
       
Funding the military and government would become like funding any Non-profit charity.  Since even today under the burdens of taxation millions of charities can draw billions of dollars from the people for sometimes the dumbest things. I don't believe that the free rider issue is a large as its make it out to be.  You need to just be creative and find ways to make the money without force, like the march of dimes does every year, or Green Peace.  If places like this can exist then there is a lot of money being tossed about outside of just what is robbed through taxation.

Regards,

Eric J. Tower


Post 17

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

I see what you mean now. I misunderstood the concern regarding the "free rider problem" in the context of post 11 by Eric, that is, in terms of what obligations does the civilians who do not join the military owe to the military. The problem you cited is a question of how the military (or any government function) should be financed, not really whether there should or should not be a compulsory draft. I am not interested in initiating another thread so I will try to answer it here the best I can.

First, I do not buy the premise that there will not be enough money to finance the military if it was financed through voluntary means. It is true that the majority of citizens may probably not choose to pay the military for whatever reason, as I conceded in post 12. I also wrote in post 12 that it will be a minority who will pick up the tab, the minority that has always had to bear the weight of the world upon their shoulders: the rich and productive. It may not be in the "short-term interest" (for lack of a better word) for the majority to put up money, or at least not much. But the rich, who have so much to lose if there is not an adequate military to defend them, would for it is in their "long-term interest" (again, for lack of a better word). I have been involved in high finance long enough to know that what seperates the rich from the middle and lower class is long-term planning in their investments. The wealthy got wealthy because they were willing to forsake a few immediate comforts for greater rewards in the future. Not all investments are measured in dollars and cents. I have an anecdote of a multi-millionaire who sold his condo at a financial loss because the association voted not to allow him to keep his dogs inside.

I can predict this with much confidence because, in America alone, billions of dollars are poured into charities and non-profit organizations every year. I cannot cite specific percentages but I remember reading in a finance textbook that the bulk of that money comes from a small percentage of the population: the most affluent members of society, of course. Many millionaries and billionaires even put up sizable percentages of their estate into private trusts and endowments of their own making. Some of them do it through the private businesses that they run or have influence with. That is in spite of the tax burdens and regulatory hurdles they have to face running their businesses (or however it is they made their fortunes). Many of these foundations fund causes that are a lot less essential than the security of the nation. Many of my colleagues in the military, in spite of their modest incomes, are paying members of organizations like the VFW and the American Legion, all private organizations that are military-oriented. In spite of the small percentage of people who qualify to be members of such organizations, they have amassed quite a chunk of change from membership fees alone. That is how things stand here and now. Imagine, then, an Objectivist society where taxes and regulations do not exist, and where the appreciation of life and liberty is more common. Also, in this society, the military (and the government in general) would not be the bloated bureaucracy it is now burdened with committments it should not have been involved. But, I digress, for I go into this "perfect world" you rather I did not appeal to.

Say, though, that my predictions are dead wrong and there are not enough people (or rather not enough people with the big bucks) who realize it is not in their rational self-interest to have the military crumble. They much rather have a few dollars now than the loss of life and liberty later. Well, it is harsh to say but they got the government they deserved. Like I wrote in my first post, any war that cannot be fought with an all-volunteer force is not a war worth fighting. To paraphrase that, any country that cannot raise an all-volunteer force is not a country worth defending. America went to two such countries not too long ago and took part in blasting their armies to the four winds.

I will close by adding that there was a time in America's history where the government treasury was quite modest (they did not have the power to collect taxes, not that they would really want to considering it was one of the things they were fighting against) yet they defeated a military world superpower in battle. The soldiers of the Continental Army and Navy were not paid much, sometimes not even at all, yet there were enough brave patriots to rise to the call to defend their inalienable rights to life, liberty, and property. This war was the War for Independence, sometimes called the American Revolution.


Post 18

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 10:27pmSanction this postReply
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Eric writes:
>Its actually in his short-term interest not to pay, but it is in his long-term interest to pay...

Actually, it's in his rational short term interest *and* rational long term interest not to pay so long as everyone else keeps paying. And everyone else has to keep paying, because otherwise there's no defense. That's crux of the problem. Get it?


- Daniel

Post 19

Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 10:46pmSanction this postReply
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That may be the case and, if it is, it is a good thing that a free society does not hinge upon such individuals. If someone does not want to pay their share, oh frigging well. I have little regard for the "little guy" and for good reason. I argued in my post above it does not even matter if the majority of the population does not pay, as I'm sure they won't. I should add in our society today, in spite of the fact there is little to no coercion involved, the wealthy not only pour the vast majority of funds into private charities that have far less importance than the military, as I already wrote, but do so with a far greater percentage of their income and assets. Not too much crying over "the little guy" not putting up any or more of his dinero, both in percentage or dollar amounts. I don't think they even give a rat's ass . . . a rationally egoistic person would not care what everyone else is doing anyway. It would be the same thing when a day comes that people would have to take personal responsibility for funding their defense.


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