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Sunday, June 6, 2004 - 6:58pmSanction this postReply
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The Great Debate
 
Here is your ring-side seat for the championship bout of reason and rhetoric.


 The opponents: from Academia and New York, the champion, Dr. Chris Matthew Sciabarra; and from New Hampshire, the "Live Free or Die State," the challenger, Reginald Firehammer.

Round one: Dr. Sciabarra leads with a series of devastating blows, five articles on Homosexuality, Objectivism, and the "shameful treatment" of homosexuals by those who call themselves Objectivists.

Round two: Reginald Firehammer counters with the publication of The Hijacking of a Philosophy, Homosexuals vs. Ayn Rand's Objectivism claiming Objectivism is being hijacked to normalize and promote homosexuality, which is neither normal or moral and inimical to Objecivist principles.

Round three: Lindsay Perigo jumps into the fray by publishing the monograph Ayn Rand, Homosexuality, and Human Liberation an updated and expanded version of Dr. Sciabarra's original five Articles.

Round four: Dr. Sciabarra again takes the advantage by publishing in The Free Radical, the article "In Praise of Hijacking", a scathing denunciation of Mr. Firehammer's book, picking it apart, piece by piece, and argument by argument.

Round five: Lindsay Perigo rings the bell to start this round, now in progress and the most interesting so far, by publishing Dr. Sciabarra's article, "In Praise of Hijacking," on the SOLO forum, where the battle is currently being waged by Dr. Sciabarra and his fans against the greatly outnumbered Mr. Firehammer and his supporters.

Rounds six and seven: You'll have to wait for the next issue of The Free Radical for the final two scheduled rounds, in which Mr. Firehammer responds to Dr. Sciabarra's critical article, and Dr. Sciabarra makes his final valiant attack.

But don't wait to see how the battle is going. Take your ring-side seat now at the SOLO Forum for the The Great Debate.

No blood, so far, has been drawn. These are two clean fighters, they obey the rules of objectivity and reason. They both fight hard and are in top condition for the fight. Since you, the spectator are free to join the fight and ultimately determine the winner, this is a fight you don't want to miss.

[Note: The Hijacking of a Philosophy, Homosexuals vs. Ayn Rand's Objectivism eBook version is now being offered in honor of this debate at half price, $4.49. This is a standalone eBook, no special reader is required, and it is printable and searchable.]

(For those interested in this debate, this page, originally posted here on The Autonomist is going to posted in several other places as well.)

Regi

(Edited by Reginald Firehammer on 6/07, 8:00am)


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Sunday, June 6, 2004 - 8:08pmSanction this postReply
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As interesting as this all is, I personally don't see the need for any great debate on this topic...  An answer is available which makes objective sense, and can satisfy everybody, without making slimy and dishonest compromises of truth.  In other words, it can be incorporated into the philosophy of Objectivism.  (and mind you, it's not a short answer, but it's as short as I could make it...) 

People are born with certain levels of overwhelm with regards to their nervous systems.  Some babies are born with nervous systems which are overwhelmed easily by stressful situations and to them, certain types of situations, such as highly competitive ones, are noxious and intolerable. 

Other babies are born with nervous systems which perform in an opposite manner:  they need lots of drama and conflict to feel right, like a sort of craving. 

Several papers from leading researchers in the field of psychobiology have been published on this topic.  Harvard professor emeritus of psychology Jerome Kagan, Ph.D., is a longstanding researcher and proponent of neonatal temperaments being determinative factors in infant likes and dislikes.  Other research discusses the role of inborn, non-sexual arousal (alertness) in all sorts of proclivities, including homosexuality.

As I've said before, the heterosexual world is a highly competitive, high-stakes place... It's not suited for everyone.  In actuality, in any system, only those organisms which best thrive on the conditions of the system will emerge the most victorious.

In the case of the game of heterosexuality, that means those "organisms" which thrive on the conflict and constant stress involved; in other words, that second class of babies I spoke of earlier... the perpetually, insanely bored and starved for drama.

Those organisms who truly find all that noxious and painful, would naturally have no real zeal for the game, and as makes sense, opt out of playing it... perhaps in favor of a different, less savage and brutal game.  In other words, homosexuality.

This is obviously an argument in defense of both hetero- and homosexuality as rational and feasible states of existence. 

On the flip side, however, full homosexuality does not lead to procreation... for that, you have to incorporate elements of heterosexuality.  Guess why. 

In the animal world, the "goal" is to outcompete your rivals and breed, breed, breed.  Yet Ayn Rand's Objectivism draws a sharp and necessary distinction between what are the goals of the animal world, and what are the necessary goals of the human world, an argument Rand herself illustrated by never bearing children. 

In Rand's estimate, the goal of the human world is to develop and actualize one's own most noble values in the form of passionate work and personal relationships.  No mention is made of the importance of children... indeed, children are basically nonexistent in her novels, yet she discusses the importance of raising them properly in an essay entitled The Comprachicos.

Could not all of these conditions be met by homosexuals?  And does not Rand's own definition of the human purpose in life, to morally actualize and make a mark in the world, as opposed to breeding as the animals do, ultimately capture homosexuality as well as heterosexuality?   

My point here is that the game of heterosexuality is what it is... if it appeals to your native temperament, jump in and have a ball.  If it does not appeal to your native temperament, play another game.  Heterosexuality has its own viciously ugly and nasty attributes as does homosexuality, though they be different in nature.

Those who choose either game can choose to play it for the sake of vanity, self-actualization, or procreation... or whatever.  Both games are equally legitimate yet also illegitimate.  It's just a matter of choosing which one suits your temperament.

And, barring even that, is anything ever really set in stone?



Post 2

Sunday, June 6, 2004 - 9:01pmSanction this postReply
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Orion,

I am surprised you could ask this:

... is anything ever really set in stone?
 
You bet!

Reality is set in stone, and no wish, or whim, or psychobiological psychobable can change it.

Regi.




Post 3

Sunday, June 6, 2004 - 11:29pmSanction this postReply
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Regi,

Two points:

1) I worded that too quickly.  You are right; reality is set in stone.  But the conditions that reality provides for us, may or may not be.  Reality often dictates conditions of plasticity in certain venues. 

I meant to ask:  Is human nature ever set in stone?  If you want to split that hair, I won't fight you... I'm too tired to fight over that.

2) As far as your "psychobabble" comment goes, well, I don't need to say it.  We all have our blind spots, I suppose.  Mine is failing to see the merit in roughly 90 percent of religion and other mindless, fear-based traditions. 


Post 4

Monday, June 7, 2004 - 7:47amSanction this postReply
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Hi Orion,

You asked: Is human nature ever set in stone?
 
Yes, human nature is, "set in stone," and the essential characteristic of that nature is the faculty of volition. It is that faculty that makes the meaning of, "a nature set in stone," different for human beings than for any other creature. For all other creatures, it is their nature that determines both what they do and what they must do. Our nature as human beings has specific requirements, both physiological and psychological, but our nature doe not determine what we do, because all we do must be done by conscious choice.

That is why we must discover what our natures are and what the requirement of them are to, not only survive, but to live our lives successfully and to enjoy them. Our essential nature is, "set in stone," what each individual does with that nature, whether they use it correctly or not, is determine by each individual.

What any individual is at any point in their life is the some of all their thoughts, choices, and actions up to that point. In that sense, all men are self-made, and whatever any individual is, in actuality, is the consequence of their own choices, not heredity, not society, not biology, and not circumstances.

Regi 


Post 5

Monday, June 7, 2004 - 9:49pmSanction this postReply
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Regi,

By now, I'm just content to declare that you are always right no matter what, and if I don't agree with you, that makes me wrong.

QED



Post 6

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 - 4:28amSanction this postReply
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Orion,

I wish you were content.

You said: I'm just content to declare that you are always right no matter what
 
I also wish you were right, because it would save me a lot of trouble. Alas, I am more often wrong than right, which is why I have to keep correcting things. You probably noticed I mispelled "sum" as "some" in the previous post, and were too polite to mention it. (I didn't correct it, either.)

Thanks for the comments!

Regi


Post 7

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 - 6:47amSanction this postReply
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Orion,

You said:
"As interesting as this all is, I personally don't see the need for any great debate on this topic...  An answer is available which makes objective sense, and can satisfy everybody ... "

Orion, your "no-need-for-debate 'cause I've got an answer-that'll-satisfy-everybody" stance was optimistic. Erring on the side of optimism is still an error in expectation - and it explains your subsequent responses.

Not too long ago, I posted an essay "that-can-satisfy-everybody" - outlining the sometimes difficult, often cumbersome steps that would satisfy-every-reasonable-person regarding which side of a debate is "more right" than the other side. Trouble is, it's a lot of work getting rational agreement over the one right answer on things. Your post makes it seem easy.

Orion, a more direct reply to your argument:
First, I applaud you identifying the importance of temperament - and the wisdom that comes with accepting that people will have different temperamental responses to things. I agree with you on an early crystallization of temperament, however, I think it has as much or more to do with prenatal and early postnatal exposures as it does with genetics.

Everything human is always determined by the interaction of a genome in an environment (nothing is purely "genetic" or "environmental"). For example, so-called "environmental" insults, such as smoking or working with asbestos, work in conjunction with genomes to do their harm - this is how we can get a George Burns (smoke and drank for most of a century; lived past 90 years old). Even Down's Syndrome, a so-called "genetic" condition can be influenced by environment.

My point is this:
One cannot "appeal to the genome" to legitimize "inborn" individual differences and, therefore, legitimize "moral relativity" - this argument cannot "satisfy everybody" on this matter

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 6/08, 6:53am)


Post 8

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Actually, temperament does not necessarily have to be due to the genome.  It can be due to prenatal factors such as maternal stress or nutrition...


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Post 9

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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Orion,

You're quite right. Prenatal exposures are more important determinants of outcome than previously thought. We can take healthy animals and create animals pre-disposed to diabetes and kidney failure - by simply altering the nutrition/stress level of the mother. Human studies confirm this link and it has now been given a name: Prenatal Programming.

However, my main beef with you was over the issue of different temperaments leading to different "moralities" (moral relativity). I honestly don't think your argument got to the heart of the matter (I don't see it as a defensible one).

Although I do appreciate your casting of light on the fact that we have different temperamental inclinations regarding our interpretations and responses to adversity in the world. See below for more on this ...

Here's a pscyho-babbling tangent: I have "psychologized" myself as a standard Hippocratic "Melancholy" or Enneagram Number 5 (Observer) who is (through personal growth) directed at becoming an 8 (Hippocratic "Choleric"). How's that for Temperaments 101?

Ed

Post 10

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 - 11:46amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Well, I look at it this way... If a person emerges from the womb with a certain baseline alertness/arousal, whatever you want to call it, then they are more likely to see out stimulus which balances out their arousal. 

That has been confirmed with studies that show that stimulants have the opposite effect on most children as they typically have with adults... Many children's nervous systems are hungry to be fed... many children on stimulants quiet down, and even fall asleep. 

Many adults experience the opposite effect.

Now, I think that there are some children who are born with a baseline arousal much like most adults, and that they get overstimulated easily, and they find high adventure to be very stressful. 

I see this as possibly relating to whether or not a male child can find the conditions of the heterosexual life enjoyable.  I also think that, perhaps, the arrow points in the opposite direction for female homosexuals.

Anyhow, as far as personality tests go, I have taken the Myers-Briggs Trait Inventory several times, and my results always come back as either an ENTP or an INTP, depending on my level of comfort and trust with my social world.  And the interpretations that are provided for me with these test results, are uncannily accurate for me, in a way that few other tests have ever been.


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Post 11

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 - 1:37pmSanction this postReply
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Orion,

Okay then.  You've established your hypothesis regarding the link between temperament and sexual orientation.  But my point still stands as unobjectionable: your insight here doesn't clearly endanger Regi's (you have argued for a plausible explanation of homosexuality - but not for a moral justification).

Psychologization confession: I've currently got you pegged as a Number 4 (Romantic) on the Enneagram.  I'd be interested in your input on that.

Ed


Post 12

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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Orion,

I am very confused by your stated position. First you say (on another thread), I will never stop declaring to the world, what a secretly sadistic horror show the so-called "mental health industry" really is.
 
Then on this thread you say, Several papers from leading researchers in the field of psychobiology have been published on this topic.  Harvard professor emeritus of psychology Jerome Kagan, Ph.D., is a longstanding researcher and proponent of neonatal temperaments being determinative factors in infant likes and dislikes.  Other research discusses the role of inborn, non-sexual arousal (alertness) in all sorts of proclivities, including homosexuality.

Do you distinguish, in some way that is not apparent, between the "mental health industry," and, "psychologists?"<p>

Regi


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Post 13

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 - 8:55pmSanction this postReply
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regi:

"Do you distinguish, in some way that is not apparent, between the "mental health industry," and, "psychologists?""

speaking from personal experience, there is a world of difference between academic psychologists and "therapeutic" ones. academics want to just look at the case studies and decide what personality test or construct term to apply to them. they are system builders, scientists, at heart, even if the particular conclusions they draw and systems they build are fatally flawed.

"therapeutic" psychologists, such as psychotherapists or psychiatrists, are a completely different animal, interested more in establishing cult like, foucaultian control over the thoughts of their patients, and diagnosing any deviation from what they consider normal as pathological to some degree and thus necessitating that one give these witch doctors money in order to "treat" this "neurosis". academic psychologists are just wrong: the "mental health industry", however, is one half orwellian nightmare, one half commercial swindle. of course, the bad ideas that the academics come up with are what keep the industry going, but I suspect that there are more blatantly political and economic motives in how the mental health industry works, above and beyond simply being powered by bad ideas.

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Post 14

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 - 10:39pmSanction this postReply
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Well said, Robert!

Although ... I wouldn't let the researchers off that easily, after having several first-hand experiences.

Keeping the context clear, Regi's antagonistic comments have implied a type of counterfeit wisdom in the whole field of psychology. And while I find this judgment to be harsh, if this global judgment were simply qualified by a "characterization by mere majority" (>50%; ie. most psychologists are either dead wrong or drawing unjustified inferences from the available data), then I'd have to agree with him.

I do feel that the work in psychology is important though, even if the quality of the work isn't quite up to a justifiable scientific standard yet. In other words, I don't feel that it must necessarily stay a pseudo-science, but is merely going through the transient phase of proto-science.

Any comments on this, Regi?

Ed

Post 15

Wednesday, June 9, 2004 - 12:31amSanction this postReply
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Okay, now this is something I can truly sink my teeth into... I'm psyched by what Ed and Robert are bringing up...

Ed,

regarding your post #11... My attempt to explain the reason is my moral justification.  In other words, I am attempting to say that it is both a "choice" and "innate"... not for the sake of some whorish and cowardly compromise, but because it seems objectively true to me, based on what findings are out there.

Homosexuality is the best-fitting choice that some people can make, based on the post-natal temperaments they come into the world outfitted with, due to genetics or prenatal conditions. 

My moral justification is that it ultimately hurts no one if it is a comfortable choice for the individual, and is just one more benign way of living, for a species that is not necessarily bound by the same reproductive life agenda as purer animal species.

And yes, I can see myself as a #4; thanks for the relay on that...

Regi,

regarding your post #12... I think that Robert Bisno is pretty close to capturing the whole essence of how I would answer your question.  However, I would say that the academic psychology industry does not have to be a force of evil.  Thus far, they have primarily modeled their conceptualization of mental health on the standard of conformity and normalcy, rather than logical analysis of objective observations of real evidence.

Regi and Robert,

I would say that, ultimately, the best, shining hope for the field of psychology lies mainly in the area of cognitive psychology; if it (psychology) would ever decide to more fully adopt the idea that the human brain is a logic engine, and borrow more on the arena of Aristotelian logic, from the field of philosophy, then things would be a lot better. 

I say that psychology, the discipline, has got to open its eyes to the truth that what really governs human behavior is what I'll call inner logic.  No matter the person or even intelligent animal, the intelligent brain is always rapidly taking in information and logically interpreting it, to decide on a course of action and reaction, be it behavioral or emotional, or both.  Only the discipline of logic, fully integrated into psychology, can fuel a complete and healthy transformation of the unquestionably corrupt mental health industry (MHI), which would then approach "mental illness" as a condition of maladapted or misaligned, logic-based objectivity.

Ed,

I very much like your term, "proto-science", as it applies to psychology.  I think that term captures the true state of things in the field of psychology very elegantly and succinctly. 
Once again, I would like to emphasize that I truly believe the salvation of this field lies in its approaching the human psyche as inner logic.
 
And once again, I extol the name of Aaron Beck, M.D., the father of cognitive therapy.


Post 16

Wednesday, June 9, 2004 - 7:04pmSanction this postReply
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Orion,

I will not get into a debate about the right way to do psychology, because of my view of psychology, but I have one question:

You said, I am attempting to say that it is both a "choice" and "innate"...

How can these both be true? They are contradictory.

Either we are volitional beings and all our behavior is by conscious choice, or something else determines our behavior, and volition, knowledge, and reason are impossible.

Regi


Post 17

Wednesday, June 9, 2004 - 9:34pmSanction this postReply
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Regi,

If something is innate, it pushes us in a certain direction... limits our choices.  But we can still exercise the choice to resist that innate nature and possibly re-condition what is innate in ourselves, depending on how entrenched it is, and how much effort we are willing to expend in changing and maintaining that change.

This is why very often people find it preferential to just go with what feels natural...


Post 18

Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 7:37amSanction this postReply
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Hi Orion,

I have a question, not a criticism. If I understand what you are saying, you disagree with Ayn Rand that the emotional aspects of human nature are developed in the same way that one's intellect is developed, by intention and by choice.

She said, "Man is born with an emotional mechanism, just as he is born with cognitive mechanism; but, at birth, both are tabula rasa. It is man's cognitive faculty, his mind, that determines the <i>content</i> of both." [Ayn Rand, "The Objectivist Ethics," The Virtue of Selfishness, page 27.

The "emotions" in Rand's vocabulary includes all the involuntary passions and feelings, including desires.

Do you disagree with Rand on this point?

Regi


Post 19

Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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Regi,

On that particular point, yes, I disagree with her... at least on the emotional part.  The knowledge base on this subject has grown in a direction that disagrees with her to some extent.  There is a lot of room for every infant to grow in, but from what I've been reading in college and after, they are born with a temperamental disposition already. 

I understand that Rand's vision was one of bold optimism and she was likely influenced by the rationale of psychology in her time, but on this one, I'm going to show my respect by employing that cliched phrase of "agreeing to disagree".  


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