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Post 40

Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
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quote  All I should say is what I said before:

Hey, buddy!  It's just some quirky icons on a free website, based thousands of miles away from where you probably live, so it can't hurt you and you shouldn't take it to heart.  You could always get mauled by a ravenous pack of tree monkeys, ya know.

Speak for yourself! I get an acute case of "Atlas envy" whenever I see someone post with 3 or 4 Atlases under his name.


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Post 41

Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 7:23pmSanction this postReply
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Andrew,

Here ya go:

Andrew Bissell
 The image “http://usabig.com/autonomist/atlasdance.jpg” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.

Not just any old Atlases, either; these are Kick-ass Atlases.

Regi


Post 42

Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 9:50pmSanction this postReply
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Is that Atlas dancing or Goose-Stepping?

Post 43

Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 11:44pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney said:
Well, if hit-and-run summations are the order of the day, then I'll say that Bayesian reasoning is stunned. I use the word advisedly.

Huh?  I don't get it.  'Stunned'?  Please explain.

Rodney,

I try to base my world-view not on abstract principles, but on a detailed empirical investigation of an issue.  For instance, the reason I'm a Libertarian is because I can back that world-view up with massive, overwhelming data from the real-world.  

You may have read my 'Monster Non-Socialist FAQ' in the SOLO war room, where I totally eviscerate the socialist world-view.

  Monster Non-Socialist FAQ

You'll notice that my style is to try to back up my assertions with real world empirical facts where appropriate.  So I'm trying to train myself to reason starting with empirical facts and only moving to abstract principles when I have a firm empirical foundation for it. 

Now I used to believe in Aristotlean/Randian epistemology but eventually changed my mind after encountering massive overwhelming real-world data for Bayesian reasoning.  This came after I actually sat down and started to study sciences which dealt with how humans brains work and how humans really reason to correct conclusions.  I could write an FAQ backing up Bayesian reasoning every bit as convincing as my Non-Socialist one.

It's the same story with the ethical theory of Egoism.  I used to half believe in 'Rational Self-Interest', but eventually changed my mind after encountering massive overwhelming real-world data for Altruism.  This came after I actually sat down and started to study sciences which dealt with human relationships.  Again, read my Non-Socialist FAQ for an example of my argumentive style.  My reasoning for Bayes and Altruism is all just as good as that.

A good primer to the relevant sciences can be found here:

Evolutionary Psychology: A Primer

I guess I learned the hard way that ultimately ideology is always trumped by the real-world, and we have to trust the empirical method first and abstract reasoning second. That's why I'm not an Objectivist.


Post 44

Friday, July 16, 2004 - 4:12amSanction this postReply
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Hi Jeff,

Its like a Rorschach ink blot test. You see in it what you want to see.

Look at the Atlas under your name--is it struggling to stand up under the load of the world, or is it genuflecting, head bowed in prayer.

Some might see a dancer or goose-stepper in my Atlas--or they might, like me, see Linz's KASS Atlas.

Regi


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Post 45

Friday, July 16, 2004 - 4:48amSanction this postReply
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Marc, Rodney,

The link to your Monster Non-Socialist FAQ, must be broken, because the one it links to cannot be described this way:

You'll notice that my style is to try to back up my assertions with real world empirical facts where appropriate.  So I'm trying to train myself to reason starting with empirical facts and only moving to abstract principles when I have a firm empirical foundation for it. 

The empirical concretes mentioned in the FAQ are, "metaphorical." Metaphors are hardly empirical. For example:

Wealth doesn't grow on trees. It has to be created. Governments generally don't generate much wealth: they take it from the populace through 'taxation' then redistribute it. Taxation is the fruit of other people's labor and it's not something that is freely given: even in democracies the government generally has direct control over tax rates and where most tax dollars goes, although there are of course tax deductibles.
 
Where does one look to see wealth? Wealth is not an empirical concept.

Where does one look to see creation. Creation is a very abstract concept.

What is a populace. Can you define it statistically or does one find it at the beach?

Oh yes. Where can I see a "generally," or the "place" where "tax dollars go," and exactly what method of locomotion do they use to go anyplace?

Since, Taxation is the fruit , can you tell us what kind of tree it grows on--or--is this another metaphor. Just where does one find these metaphors in empirical reality?

If you are going to be a concrete-bound strict Bayesian empiricist, you are going to have to get rid of all these words in your language that have no direct connection to observed reality, including all conjunctions, prepositions, any verbs that are not actions of physical existents, any nouns that do not refer to actual entities, and any adjectives that are not attributes of material facts. It's going to be very difficult to say very much, but at least you will be avoiding the mistakes of Aristotlean/Randian epistemology.

Good luck!

Regi


Post 46

Friday, July 16, 2004 - 4:56amSanction this postReply
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Regi, that was outstanding!

Post 47

Friday, July 16, 2004 - 11:28pmSanction this postReply
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The empirical concretes mentioned in the FAQ are, "metaphorical." Metaphors are hardly empirical.


Touche, Regi old boy, Touche.  If you read my FAQ through though you'd find quite a few hard facts in there, as well as the metaphors.

If you are going to be a concrete-bound strict Bayesian empiricist, you are going to have to get rid of all these words in your language that have no direct connection to observed reality, including all conjunctions, prepositions, any verbs that are not actions of physical existents, any nouns that do not refer to actual entities, and any adjectives that are not attributes of material facts. It's going to be very difficult to say very much, but at least you will be avoiding the mistakes of Aristotlean/Randian epistemology.

Good luck!

Regi

Bayesian reasoning is anything but 'concrete-bound', as you seem to think.  It's really just a slight extension of Popperian epistemology.  I like to think of Popper's epistemology as the free market in ideas ;)  Instead of singular rigid defintions and hierarchical chains of reasoning (the Aristotlean/Randian style), Popperian/Bayesian epistemology eschews certainty and instead uses multiple competing hypotheses, which are judged according to their explanatory power.  The fault with Popperian epistemology is that it overemphasized falsification.  Bayesian reasoning subsumes Popper because in Bayes positive evidence counts as well, allowing more constructive reasoning.  Also Bayesian reasoning can be used to judge Bayesian epistemology itself, providing a self-consistent self-referential framework not obtainable through Popperian reasoning.

If anything is concrete-bound it's the Randian/Aristotlean method, which demands concrete defiinitions.  As has been pointed out by others, this actually hinders reasoning.  I can see this in your own reasoning style Regi.  You are much more 'concrete-bound' than me I think ;)   

(Edited by Marc Geddes on 7/17, 1:55am)


Post 48

Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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Marc,

I'm glad you appreciate rhetoric, even when's it directed against your own arguments. I admit, it was largely rhetorical and illustrative, rather than concrete-bound hard Aristotelian/Randian logic. I thought you might appreciate that approach.

I think you misunderstand something about rand's epistemology. It does not, as you say, demand "concrete definitions." In fact, I do not even know what that would be.

A definition only needs to indicate, within the limits of one's current understanding, what the referents of a concept are. It does not have to say anything about those referents or relate them to anything else, except where it is necessary to make the referents explicit and prevent confusion with anything else.

The fact is, things are already related in reality, and identifying things means identifying them in their actual context, the world they are found in. Whether explicitly stated or not, that identification implies their relationships to all other things.

It is reality that dictates the hierarchy of things, and therefore, our knowledge of them. To the extent one's knowledge does not reflect that hierarchy, one's own knowledge is limited and disintegrated.

I also think most people, especially philosophers, do not know what epistemology is, and, even Rand made this mistake on occasion. Epistemology is not the study of how we ought to reason, but the study of the nature of knowledge itself. If the nature of knowledge is correctly understood, how it ought to be acquired and addressed follows. Most philosophers jump into the middle of the question and just begin explaining what correct reason is, without the vaguest idea of what they are reasoning about, or why, since knowledge is just assumed. The premise seems to be, "we have knowledge but have no idea what it is nor do we need to bother to find out." Thus: Popper and Bayes.

Regi


Post 49

Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney,

"[S]tunned?" Rodney, that was ingenious (it was a little devilish of you, though!). And the damn thing "worked" as it was supposed to! It's ironic to find this intellectual cat-and-mouse-play on a thread with this title, however.

Regi,

"[K]nowledge is just assumed?" Regi, that was ingenious. I hope it works as it is supposed to.

Marc, you're either brave or brazen. You come off so argumentative. I see nothing but folly in seeking to deliberately provoke these 2 intellectual giants - as you seem to have done with your comments against their (and my) world-views.

Hint: Citing some more Popper or Bayes (oh, what the hell - how about some Chomsky or Pinker?) will probably NOT strengthen your case. And if you don't understand why, then I don't think you should expect to earn esteem from continuing on as you have thus far in the debate.

Ed

Post 50

Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, now you've done it. I don't have the time to debate the brilliant Marc (your words, and despite what I said before I have to agree, because he represents his philosophy so well, just as Daniel does). As I've said elsewhere, I don't think it necessary anyway. If that makes me seem unintellectual then so be it.

I love being called an "intellectual giant," but it imposes a responsibility on me that I can't assume these days. Let Regi do it--he's tireless as Marc and Daniel, and almost as smart as I. ;-)

(Either that, or smarter--I haven't gotten around to reading his perception essay. But I do know essential qualities are epistemological.)


Post 51

Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 7:26pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney, Ed,

Let Regi do it--he's tireless as Marc and Daniel, and almost as smart as I.
 
The superior mind can judge the inferior, but not vice versa.

If you judge another mind superior to your own, you are either mistaken or correct by accident.

Regi


Post 52

Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 10:14pmSanction this postReply
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Marc wrote:
>I like to think of Popper's epistemology as the free market in ideas ;)

Now you're talking! (A market overseen by rule of law of course..;-))

>The fault with Popperian epistemology is that it overemphasized falsification. 

Widely believed, but not actually so - but never mind!

>Bayesian reasoning can be used to judge Bayesian epistemology itself, providing a self-consistent self-referential framework not obtainable through Popperian reasoning.

Folks may be interested in Bill Bartley's work expanding Popper in this regard:

http://www.the-rathouse.com/writingsonbartley.html

Bartley is a more boring writer than Popper, but worth the effort. Plus. leaving philosophy aside, Rafe Champion's "Rathouse" site is well worth a visit for art and literature fans anyhow

regards

Daniel

Post 53

Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 10:31pmSanction this postReply
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Marc, you're either brave or brazen. You come off so argumentative. I see nothing but folly in seeking to deliberately provoke these 2 intellectual giants - as you seem to have done with your comments against their (and my) world-views.
Ed,  probably I'm brazen and brave ;)

Regi and Rodney seem like pretty smart fellows and its a pleasure to read some of Regi's posts, but 'intellectual giants'?  Come on.  To qualify for that label one must be recognised as having made some original intellectual advances.  No regular at SOLO can lay claim to that title, expect perhaps Tibor Machan.  It was not my aim to 'provoke' anyone, nor was I aiming to attack anyone's 'world-views'. 


Hint: Citing some more Popper or Bayes (oh, what the hell - how about some Chomsky or Pinker?) will probably NOT strengthen your case. And if you don't understand why...
Oh, I understand quite well.  I even admit that many of the people here are smarter than I am.

Never the less, I must continue to point out that among scientists and those who have studied these matters, the prevailing view is that the Randian/Aristotlean method is not a good epistemology.  Popperian epistemology is the norm these days, and even that now seems to be giving way to Bayesian epistemology.  Bayes is in the ascendant, Aristotle/Rand have been rejected.  So a rational person has to ask why this is so. 

Remember there was a time when I was a fan of Aristotle/Rand and I went from there to Popper.  And it is only in the last 7 months that I was finally converted from Popper to Bayes.  I used to be a big Bayes skeptic.  And even now I still have doubts.  So I come here and debate to see if I can learn anything which would make me change my mind again.  But as yet I have to say I have seen nothing which would convince me to ever return to Aristotle/Rand.  Daniel certainly seemed to me to have the better of the debate.

(Edited by Marc Geddes on 7/18, 10:35pm)


Post 54

Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 10:50pmSanction this postReply
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Now you're talking! (A market overseen by rule of law of course..;-))
Yes Daniel, I think that Randian/Aristotlean epistemology is the equivalent of 'epistemological socialism', where as Popper/Bayes is like 'epistemological capitalism' ;)  It's realization of this fact that will eventually bring most of the people at SOLO around to Popper and then Bayes.

I had heard of Bartley.  You (and everyone else reading this thread) may be interested to read this essay on 'Pancritical Rationalism'.  Ayn Rand, Bartley and Popper are all mentioned.  Here's the link:

Pancritical Rationalism


Post 55

Monday, July 19, 2004 - 10:38amSanction this postReply
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Marc,

"It's realization of this fact that will eventually bring most of the people at SOLO around to Popper and then Bayes."

Marc, "fact[s]" can't be "realized" under Bayesian reasoning - like Regi said: they have to be assumed.

In particular, the inherently foundational, system-building type of foresight - which you display prophetically - is antithetical to Bayes (and grossly so without the accompanying relevant liklihood ratios and an outline of the variables subsumed in your calculations).

Ed

Post 56

Monday, July 19, 2004 - 10:59amSanction this postReply
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Hey Ed,

Give Marc a break, he's not sure about anything!


Post 57

Monday, July 19, 2004 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
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One thing is sure: we are GRANDLY ABUSING this thread. (Excuse my radical capitalism.) Mr. S had the good sense to skedaddle.

Post 58

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 7:10amSanction this postReply
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Although I've already posted in this thread, I hadn't read many of the other posts before I did, leaving me a bit thumb-sucking-unaware regarding much of it. So, when I just now read the entirety of the thread - which included the posts I missed earlier and the ones that followed my own - I found myself quite amazed. Because, aside from the strange fixation with atlas points, you're all one hell of an intelligent bunch of discussionists, if such a word exists. (It does now). Actually, that's quite a good name for someone: Diskushinist. Hey man, what's your name? Diskushinist. Oh, okay, so you're like ...   

It'd cause a look at you that only white whales bring; a look that has people blink when they otherwise wouldn't

-D.


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