Evil music.... that sounds good?

hello. i recently purchased 2 songs on itunes that, from my poor interpretation of the lyrics, have vile messages.

the songs are "no such thing" by john mayer, and "big yellow taxi" by the counting crows.

"big yellow taxi" is maybe about environmentalism, not quite sure, but "no such thing" has the chorus:

"i wanna run through the halls of the high school.
i wanna scream at the top of my lungs.
i just found out there's no such thing as the real world; it's just a lie you've got to rise above"

now, this is a rotten chorus, but the thing is, the song sounds so good.

there are analagous movies, which seem good, but have bad messages (like the matrix).

what do you lot think of entertainment with a bad message?

eli

Post 1

Friday, August 20, 2004 - 5:29pm

In the context of the rest of the song, Eli, I think it’s pretty clear that the “real world” Mayer is singing about -- and rejecting -- is the idea of abandoning your dreams and becoming a passionless drone who conforms to what society expects.

J

Post 2

Friday, August 20, 2004 - 5:41pm

ah, well, i am no good at interpreting lyrics, or poems.

Post 3

Friday, August 20, 2004 - 8:09pm

A lot of things go into a song--the melody, the lyrics, the quality of the singer's voice...It's complex. Sometimes a song (or movie or book) does some things very well, but does other things terribly. Good melody with terrible lyrics is a typical example. I think it's great to like a song like this, if you can--just focus on what's good, and don't get too hung up on what's bad. Of course, make sure the song isn't inducing you to unconsciously accept some evil philosophical premise! But then, enjoy it.

More generally, if you find yourself emotionally enjoying something, but consciously, logically, it doesn't seem like you should like it, then, DON'T start repressing those emotions! Those emotions are probably telling you that there's something good here that you haven't consciously identified. Think about it, try to understand it, but don't be afraid to let yourself enjoy it, and don't feel guilty for enjoying it, even if it seems to go against your explicit philosophical convictions.

Post 4

Friday, August 20, 2004 - 8:27pm

What exactly was the message of The Matrix Trilogy? I never figured it out.

Post 5

Friday, August 20, 2004 - 9:10pm

"What exactly was the message of The Matrix Trilogy? I never figured it out."

oh, well, i think it was actually just a slew of philosophic ideas, mostly bad, often in contradiction with each other, and never discussed in any depth.

[going from memory, not exactly right]

neo: "if you know what i'm going to do, then how can i choose?"

oracle: "because you didn't come here to make the choice, you came here to find out why you made it."

what b.s.!

"More generally, if you find yourself emotionally enjoying something, but consciously, logically, it doesn't seem like you should like it, then, DON'T start repressing those emotions! Those emotions are probably telling you that there's something good here that you haven't consciously identified. Think about it, try to understand it, but don't be afraid to let yourself enjoy it, and don't feel guilty for enjoying it, even if it seems to go against your explicit philosophical convictions."

or those emotions may tell me that my values are messed up. but i agree, conscious identification of what i like about something is a good thing.

for example, in the matrix, i liked the fight scenes, and the expertise of neo, as well as the idea of not giving up on love for the sake of the rest of the populace.

in "no such thing", i liked everything but the lyrics.

Post 6

Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 8:44am

Eli,

Check out The Romantic Manifesto, the paperback version, p. 42-43. Rand discusses esthetic judgment and good art and concludes that "there are many different aspects from which one may enjoy a work of art--other than sense-of-life affinity." Don't pass up good art just because it projects a goofy sense of life.

Jordan

Post 7

Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 1:21pm

i plan to read it...

eventally...

Post 8

Monday, September 27, 2004 - 8:40am

As sad as it may be, a lot of times I think songwriters say things they don't necessarily mean, simply because what they're saying sounds cool with the music. At the extreme of this, I know that some writers come up with words simply because they sound good with the music, but that mean nothing in and of themselves.

For example, Deftones' singer Chino Moreno wrote the lyrics to their song "Around the Fur" and then admitted that they had no meaning whatsoever. He claimed that he was just sitting and listening to the song, saying words every now and then and keeping the ones that sounded good. It's a goofy way to write a song, but I'd rather hear nonsense in song lyrics than someone who's absolutely full of shit, as John Mayer is.

Lyricists like Mayer these days fancy themselves in the realm of the gods, as though their words are so profound. Many songwriters today are completely pompous and annoying because of it. It's kind of like hippies who won't shut up about whatever cause they're fighting for this week, and you're supposed to listen and be mesmerized. I don't buy it. It's music; enjoy it, and take it seriously, but don't take yourself too seriously when you're making it.

Post 9

Monday, September 27, 2004 - 3:26pm

"Lyricists like Mayer these days fancy themselves in the realm of the gods, as though their words are so profound. Many songwriters today are completely pompous and annoying because of it. It's kind of like hippies who won't shut up about whatever cause they're fighting for this week, and you're supposed to listen and be mesmerized. I don't buy it. It's music; enjoy it, and take it seriously, but don't take yourself too seriously when you're making it."

Oo, Jake, I dunno about that. I think Mayer is a wonderful musician, and his work is most likely a very serious matter to him. Turns out he has great passion for classical rock (big fan of Jimi Hendrix). I don't think he could be gaining the interest he is if he wasn't serious about his work. In fact, it would probably be impossible for me to enjoy anything that a creator didn't actually take seriously while creating it.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain the popularity of Metalica to me <g>.

Post 10

Monday, September 27, 2004 - 7:56pm

You completely misunderstood me apparently. I never said he wasn't a good musician. I said he was a pompous lyricist. And I didn't say he didn't take his work seriously. I think all musicians take their work seriously. I was simply pointing out that they shouldn't take THEMSELVES so seriously.

And I think Jimi Hendrix is the single most overrated musician in history. So no point in trying to show that Mayer is a great musician for listening to him. Mayer is a hundred times the guitar player Jimi was. Hendrix is credited with "discovering" a whole new group of chords and methods of chording, and as far as I can tell from listening to him play and watching video of him, this was a simple accident. He was the sloppiest musician to ever make it big, and it offends me as a musician when people assert Hendrix's greatness.

And about Metallica, they aren't as popular now, but they were popular in the beginning because while other bands were teasing up their hair and caking on lipstick and eyeliner, Metallica were sticking to t-shirts and jeans, and making no apologies for it. In addition, their songwriting on albums such as "Ride the Lightning", "Master of Puppets", and "...And Justice For All" demonstrate an extreme talent for long, intricate songs, and each of them had some sort of message leagues deeper than the typical hair band songs of the period. In addition, Metallica's original bass player, Cliff Burton, whose life was cut short in a bus accident in Sweden in 1987, studied music in college, and was very influenced by classical music. The instrumental song "Orion" from "Master of Puppets" was almost entirely composed by Burton, and in my opinion, the melodic value of that song has no rival in the world of modern music.

I know you were joking about Metallica, but I was just explaining a little about them that some do not know. Sure, they've strayed from their roots in the last decade or so, but they earned their popularity.

Post 11

Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 5:41pm