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Post 0

Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 6:28pmSanction this postReply
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Not counting rock or pop bands such as Rush, does anyone have ideas on who might be the earliest avowedly Rand-inspired composer of serious music?

Post 1

Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 7:43pmSanction this postReply
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Good question. I dunno. Vinent Herring? Probably too recent. And he's into jazz, so you might not want to count him.

Jordan


Post 2

Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
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I myself know of someone who by 1979 had written a comedic “philosophical oratorio” embodying Objectivism, and was performing it all over the US and Canada. I am wondering whether he is the earliest.


Post 3

Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 4:13pmSanction this postReply
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That's someone wouldn't per change be you, would it? ;)

Jordan


Post 4

Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 4:22pmSanction this postReply
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No, not me.

Post 5

Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 9:47pmSanction this postReply
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How about John Lennon? He wrote "Imagine" in 1970 or so. Didn't he? ;)

coaltontrail

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Post 6

Monday, August 30, 2004 - 4:31amSanction this postReply
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Where is he? I still have a tape of that 'oratorio' that I listen to occasionally. Quite enjoyable.

Post 7

Monday, August 30, 2004 - 5:48amSanction this postReply
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Robin Field, the last I heard, is no longer in show business, but is continuing to compose.

I asked this question because I suspect he may be the first composer who created artistically successful works openly based on and promoting Objectivism.


Post 8

Monday, August 30, 2004 - 9:02amSanction this postReply
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Coalton, I hope that was a joke about “Imagine”! Anyway, Lennon is definitely a rock musician, and so does not qualify here.

Post 9

Monday, August 30, 2004 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
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"Coalton, I hope that was a joke about “Imagine”! Anyway, Lennon is definitely a rock musician, and so does not qualify here. "

Yes, of course!

coaltontrail




Post 10

Monday, August 30, 2004 - 2:27pmSanction this postReply
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That’s a relief. Though I actually think it’s musically a nice record, and I enjoy listening to it, lyrically it manages to incorporate all the intellectual sloppiness of our age!


Post 11

Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 3:42pmSanction this postReply
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Rick, is your version of the oratorio titled “Three Questions” or “Reason in Rhyme”?


Post 12

Wednesday, September 1, 2004 - 7:44amSanction this postReply
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"Three Questions" - A Philosophical Oratorio

The tape and libreto came from Second Renaisance.

Post 13

Wednesday, September 1, 2004 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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Do you know whether at that time Second Renaissance was approved by ARI? I ask because Robin Field told me in the early 1980s that (if I remember correctly) to his knowledge no one at ARI had yet heard his presentation, and I wondered what they might have thought of it.

Post 14

Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 11:17pmSanction this postReply
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Are you trying to say rock music is not serious? Come on, be reasonable, theres alot of great rock bands out there that could be compared to classical music.

Post 15

Monday, September 13, 2004 - 6:36pmSanction this postReply
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I have to think a bit about why I exclude rock bands from this question, but it’s not for want of enjoying that type of music. For example, here’s one I can relate to. Not that it’s a favorite of mine—it goes on a bit too long and the melody is rather trite. But I like the energy, and the idea of getting back to the fun type of rock.

And though I have more respect for the type of pop songs I discuss here in Post 4 than for pure rock, I do not include it here either in my question. I’ll have to get back to you on why.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 9/15, 9:58am)


Post 16

Monday, September 13, 2004 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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I'm somewhat disappointed that it isn't me. Oh well.
Adam

Post 17

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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Are you suggesting that there is no serious Rock music? Ever listen to PINK FLOYD: THE WALL? Bob Dylan? If John Lennon were any more serious, we'd have to kill ourselves. Yes coverd WAR AND PEACE, Genesis covers class struggle, The Sex Pistols cover class struggle, Madonna and Sinead O'Conner fight the enemies in organized religion. Rush covers the dichotomy of Heart and Mind. Emerson Lake and Palmer covers Man versus Machine. The Clash were the CNN of rock.
Can't get any more serious than that.

Did you mean serious as in technique, structure, melody, form? Rick Wakeman was a classically trained keyboardist, as were members of Genesis. The members of Pink Floyd were architects who brought those skills into the electronic music medium. The Beatles introduced the idea of rock as Art. Supertramp introduced klezmer influnced into rock. Progressive rock bands produced epic works on a Wagnerian scale. Steely Dan stumps studio musicians with their tricky yet smooth jazz arrangements. Renaissance features the beautiful soprano of Annie Haslam through the style of orchestral masterpieces. Santana brought us the intense polyrhythms of Latin music. Motown gave us orchestral pop that was as artful as it was listenable.

Objectivists can continue to claim a "value-deprivation" but all one needs to do is look around and listen, look, and learn. There are some great works out there. The fact that some Objectivists can't see it speaks more about the Objectivist than it does the culture.

Post 18

Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 9:36pmSanction this postReply
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Joe you forgot to mention Jimi Hendrix. He was a genius when it came to playing guitar.

Here are some of my personal favorite rock albums. All masterpieces in my opinion.

Jimi Hendrix - "Electric Ladyland"
Cream - "Disraeli Gears"
Minutemen - "Double Nickels on the Dime"
Socic Youth - "Daydream Nation"
Nirvana - "Nevermind"
Slint - "Spiderland"
Rush - "2112"
Death - "Sound of Perseverance"
Tool - "Aenima"
My Bloody Valentine - "Loveless"
Faith No More - "Angel Dust"


Post 19

Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 6:56pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney, please let me know if I don't speak for you on this, but I think I can defend the general spirit of what was behind your decision to exclude rock musicians from this discussion.

First off, you were asking about the first Objectivist *composer.*  The term 'composer' immediately implies someone who writes music in the European classical tradition, meaning they create their musical scores using the established Western system of musical notation.  For example, how many times have you heard someone say, "Jimi Hendrix is a great rock composer."  Composers are in effect musically "literate", meaning they can read and write music (but don't take this to mean that illiterate or semi-literate musicians don't/can't make valuable artistic contributions).  

Composers have full command over all the musical happenings of a given piece of music they are creating - it's a highly individualistic endeavor.  Additionally, they can harness and realize ideas in their head which are far beyond the capability of their own technical prowess on the instruments they write for, as they have the luxury of outsourcing the performance of a piece to specialists.

Rock music, on the other hand, is usually created in a collaborative process heavilly dependent on *songwriting*.  Songwriting is the effort to combine lyrics and music into complete work.  A song can either begin as a poem that is then set to music, or as instrumental music which has lyrics especially created for it.

Anyhow, the term 'serious music' has come to mean any music that written by composers in the European tradition.  People opt to use the term 'serious' instead of 'classical' because the term Classical also refers to a specific era in music history (roughly 1750 to 1800 if I can recall), and it avoids any resulting confusion.  Certainly, to refer to music in this way implies that all other music is not serious, and I think that's unfortunate. But again, I don't think that the point of excluding rock music from this discussion is to suggest there is no merit or depth in rock or other non-classical styles.   


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