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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
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I'm starting a new cult.

It will consist of a dried turd on a gilded satin pillow, behind bulletproof glass, and surrounded by hulking bodyguards armed with chainsaws who guard the double-wide trailer that contains the turd, and is the holy shrine.

During every solar eclipse, all worshippers the world over, are required to migrate to the shrine and eat only red lentils and pass gas... until the sacred one-legged rooster crows.

All those who fail to attend or fully complete the ritual, will have their sexual organs torn out and/or off by starving timber-wolves.

Who wants to join?  It's a religion of peace and love... really it is. 


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Post 1

Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 7:08pmSanction this postReply
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That sounds like shit, dude!

I was thinking about starting a cult, myself, but I don't have the details nailed down yet.

Post 2

Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 10:49pmSanction this postReply
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Ashley,

Well, it's easy to start your own cult, which will eventually become a religion... I'm completely serious with what I'm about to say, and this blueprint actually works in real life:

First of all, just think utterly childish:  dominance and submission.  That's the core.  You want something insultingly stupid that you can get off debasing people over, and that will appeal to all the people in the world who get off on "having" to conform to humiliating shit.

That's the basic idea.  Starting with that, you then pick some stupid tangible item like a turd or a towel or a rock or something, and then build up a child's game that it's "magical".  It has to be locked away somewhere that people can see it, but not be able to touch it.  You have to hype it up with hooplah and exclusivity.

Then you create all these long, drawn-out rituals that further expand the fun and demented little child's game you've created.  Think Lord of the Flies.  A rotting pig's head on a stake is a good idea, but it's probably not permanent enough, unless it can be preserved or something.

From there, you just recruit your bored little child's game outward, and involve more people.  They'll get into the excitement and horror of it all, because remember:  adulthood is a myth... total bullshit.  The average slack-jawed, mouth-breathing "adult" is really just a large, hairy body that still houses the mind of a runny-nosed child, and that any semblance of "adulthood" is really just well-rehearsed "playing of grown-up".  Hence the sheer numbers of "grown-ups" in churches, temples, and mosques.

Contempt, anyone?

(Edited by Orion Reasoner on 10/12, 10:54pm)


Post 3

Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 12:08amSanction this postReply
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Ashley, I think somebody might have beat you to forming your ill-defined cult!
http://www.join-me.co.uk/

Post 4

Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 12:17amSanction this postReply
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"On the tower stairs the slender queen-priestess of the sacred city lay at the Viking's feet. Her head bent so low that her golden hair swept the steps and he could see her breasts as,breathing tremulously, they touched the ground. Her hands lay still and helpless on the steps,the palms turned up, hungry in silent entreaty. But it was not mercy they were begging of him."
 
 -"Kira's Viking", The Early Ayn Rand

I see nothing childish in domination and submission; there are aesthetic frissions of value in many types of human relations.  Rand's novels portray both sexual and nonsexual situations with strong currents of what is called today a D/s aesthos. 

One may criticize authoritarian religion, certainly, but these emotions are part of Objectivism's history.  BDSM isolates the emotional experiences of direction and trust and allows these abstract relations to be experienced directly in a dramatic and/or erotic setting.  It is not surprising that Rand, one of the most brilliantly competent people on the planet and one who never found an writings; she had no one to look up to and could only experience this emotion through literary and sexual art.  As an aspiring pro-sub an a Scene player, I assure you that domination and submission are childish only in the sense that laughter and guiltless nudity are childish.  Perhaps we need more childishness, not in the sense of ignorance and simplicity, but in the sense of direct and unmediated enjoyment of experiences.
regards,

Jeanine Ring {))(*)((}
(miss shiris)


Post 5

Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 6:04amSanction this postReply
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Jeanine, might I add that domination/submission is sometimes confused with the issue of control. The one submitting is often the one most in control. Is it game, ritual, childish? Perhaps yes to all. My favorite word these days is *context* :)


John

Post 6

Friday, October 15, 2004 - 1:09amSanction this postReply
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Well, I'm a slippery conceptual, contextual, dialectician myself, having learned it from the Diabolical One!; apologies, but you seemed to be indicating that as a cult was ultimately "childish" because it called for emotions of domination and submission... I was simply defending those emotions and saying there is nothing wrong with a religion insofar as it calls upon those emotions.

As for whether submissives are ultimately in control... oh dear... the most politique way to put it is... as a submissive I quite desire someone to disprove that truism! ;o

my regards,

Jeanie Ring {))(*)((}


Post 7

Friday, October 15, 2004 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
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Dominance and submission do have their places, but not in megalithic institutions that presume to dictate the pervasive method by which whole societies maintain their long-term viability.  For that, you need rational exchange and free choice.

What we're talking about with cults and religions, is about coercion.  And regarding S&M, let's face it... these are just recreational pretexts for "safe cruelty".  And let's also face something else:  how often is the temptation too irresistable, to cross the line, into real cruelty, and giving people no choice.

That's the problem with religion.  It acquires too much power for itself, to play by the rules for very long.  This is why you get priests molesting choirboys so often... because the priests and everybody else who belongs to religion just implicitly or subconsciously "gets" that it's really all about dominance, submission, sado-masochism... and then the backsides of choir boys start looking like "tasty ham sandwiches".

So, because S&M so easily crosses the line from consensual to forcible, it should only be a part of small-scale human relations; say, between individuals behind closed doors, if ever.  But allowing whole world-dominating institutions to arise that are all about sadomasochistic relegation -- in other words, religions -- well, that is a huge mistake, because the natural transgressions and traumas will happen on a massive scale. 


Post 8

Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 5:15amSanction this postReply
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I think a great way to create a cult would be to follow these simple steps:

(1) Write some popular novels with cliche characters as heros.
(2) Create villians to represent ideas you oppose (make sure they do not represent the ideas very well)
(3) Allow heros to debate with "straw men" villians - thus showing how your world view is superior.

People will then read these fictional works and create a cult with you as the leader.

If you then write a few very bad philosophy books (which the academic community rejects) people will use these books as their sacred creed.

A blind, unthinking obedience to your every bizarre conclusion will thus follow.

Does anyone know if this method has been tried already.

Have Fun!

Post 9

Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 8:38amSanction this postReply
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Martin, you are either very brave, or very foolish...

Post 10

Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 11:29amSanction this postReply
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Martin,

A few questions for you...

1) If these heroes are "cliche", as you say... then that means that they have been done before.  If so, can you tell us where they've been "done before"?

2) What villains don't represent ideals that the author finds anathemous?

3) Since these villains are "straw men", then that means they're not fleshed out as actual characters that the reader could sympathize with.  Are any of these villains written as having previous lives that might give a reason for their villainous worldview?  If so, then they're not straw men; they actually have a compelling agenda for their actions.

4) Are they "very bad" philosophy books because the academic community rejects them?  Is that a valid criteria for evaluation?  Is said academic community fair and objective?

5) Do the cult's followers have "blind, unthinking obedience", or are the books actually so compelling to the reader's needs, that they actually freely choose to ardently subscribe to the philosophy?  Are they ever free to disagree?  If so, it's not "blind, unthinking obedience", now is it?

6) Are you sure this author arrives at "bizarre conclusions"?  I mean, perhaps if the conclusions run counter to the typical thinking of yourself and others, then, yes, by reference, they're "bizarre".  But maybe it's your thinking that is objectively bizarre, beyond a mere comparative sense.  Perhaps the "cult" considers your thinking bizarre, too, and what's worse... your thinking is more than just bizarre in their view, it is actually malignant thinking.

7) Something tells me that you already know that what you call "this method" -- which it is not necessarily -- has indeed already been tried.

And oh yes:  you have fun, too.  :-)


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Post 11

Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 10:30amSanction this postReply
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you, Martin Shultz-

Ayn Rand was one of the greatest philosophers and artists of the twentieth century, indeed, in the history of the West.  If you have not experienced wonder at her works, that is forgivable.  If you experience no wonder, combined with a petulant resentment at one who held herself above others, you lack the capacity for genuine experience of greatness.

I'll grant flaws in Rand's novels, particularly mischaracterization of some opponents, though searing, unblinkable vision of many, but Rand was a person who, in all rights, deserved worship, only I so wish she had handled it better.

I speak as one who is not a Randian, critical of her philosophy on many points, at war with many of her successors. with many admirations and other allegiances.  I'm not one of her followers; actually, I'm a whore.  Likely a cultist too (technicalities aside), as I'm an initiated Pagan and a feminist goddess-worshipper, not to mention an admirer of Nietzsche, Foucault, and Leo Strauss.  So rest assured I am merely a visitor here, which fortunately permits me, as Msr. Perigo keeps his silence, to address your brazen breach of hospitality and mendacious presumption myself.

When you have created the person Rand created in herself, a person born in the fires of the worst dictatorship in human history, who, while a woman, a Jew and a Russian, who did not at first know even the tongue of this country, climbed up a torturous lifetime to the stage of world history, who retained her own soul through Hollywood, a woman who, finding the country she had fled to was failing to persist as her dreamt it, took as simply a natural and practical utility to refound it with her own mind and pen, who bled her buoyancy dry for eleven years for her greatest work- I have been a writer, I know- and who received for all this, betrayal, smirks, smears of the most atrocious kind, silencing, ignorant appreciation, and worst of all became a person so great there was no large enough mirror of her spirit's tint alive to show her reflection- when you have done that, or an approach to that, then you may enjoy your little taunts at a woman who could have crumbled in three minutes of words your little poisonous molehill in the desert.  How dare you?  By the Goddess!, Popageno, shut your trap!
 
Jeanine Shiris Ring {))(*)((}


Post 12

Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 6:57pmSanction this postReply
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Ayn Rand???

Um guys... I was talking about Scientology - El Ron Hubbard's cliche Science Fiction books. Bad mystical philosophy, which was a mish mash of Christianitl, buddhism, and his scifi fantasy.... Then the bizzarre beliefs in 'Clears' - space aliens, thetans, etc, etc.

And yes I do think people follow his ideas blindly.

Orion... do you still want me to answer your seven questions?

Why did anyone think I was talkinga bout Ayn Rand anyway? Wasn't she a philosopher or something?



Post 13

Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 7:57pmSanction this postReply
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Martin,

I can't decide whether to be impressed by your mindbending skills, or utterly nauseated.

And yes, since you yourself consciously came to an Ayn Rand philosophy website, as a matter of fact, yes.  Ayn Rand was a philosopher... "or something". 
 
Interesting that you could seek out a website based on her philosophy, and then communicate that you're just now wondering if she was a philosopher... "or something".

That's a contradiction.  And contradictions don't really exist.  When faced with a contradiction, check your premises.  You will find that one of them is wrong.

In this case, the wrong premise is that you "were really" talking about Scientology all along.  You were talking about Ayn Rand and Objectivism all along, and you almost had me fooled.  Almost.  *golf clap*

Improve your game.
 


Post 14

Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 8:12amSanction this postReply
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Curses!

You caught me out Orion....

I always go that one step to far!

But Ayn Rand and Mr.Hubbard must have a lot in common.

How else could I have "almost had you fooled"....

Orion... tell me what you think of this article:


http://www.skeptic.com/02.2.shermer-unlikely-cult.html


Post 15

Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 1:12pmSanction this postReply
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Martin,

Now, in all fairness, I do have to say that, yes, apparently Rand did have a bit of a sadistic streak in her, at some point when dealing with her followers.  I don't know if it came about because of the "Great Rift", or whatever...

But then again, if she had a sadistic streak, apparently a number of her then-followers must've had a masochistic streak, because they remained fiercely devoted.  From what I hear, the old guard at the Ayn Rand Institute are carry-overs from those days, and ARI still serves as the caretaker of that sort of nasty social dynamic.

However, I will also say that, despite all this, the actual philosophy of Objectivism still remains vastly superior to me, over all other philosophies, in terms of its power to train the mind to be maximally effective, over what followers of other philosophies are able to achieve by employing other philosophies.


Post 16

Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 6:48pmSanction this postReply
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Orion: “But then again, if she had a sadistic streak, apparently a number of her then-followers must've had a masochistic streak, because they remained fiercely devoted.”

Yes, and devotion to the Great Leader is one of the hallmarks of a cult. While we’re on the subject of art and sadism, Orion, it’s often said that artists use the raw material of their own lives in the service of their art.

I’m reminded of this by a scene in Atlas Shrugged, where Dagny is packing her bags before going in search of Galt’s energy machine. She calls Eddie Willers on the phone to come over and take some notes on running the business in her absence.

Since she is in a hurry, she takes Eddie into her bedroom and dictates while she is packing items of clothing, including her underwear. A short while later, Eddie catches a glimpse of Hank Reardon’s dressing gown in Dagny’s cupboard.

The perceptive reader will have guessed that Eddie holds a candle for Dagny, so the scene is doubly poignant. No sooner does Eddie finally get a glimpse of his true love’s panties, than he realises that another man is getting into them.

All the while, John Galt has been pumping Eddie for inside information on Dagny. The poor schmuck gets shafted by all and sundry, without getting a slice of the action for himself.

I wonder whether Miss Rand unconsciously modeled Eddie on her husband Frank, and whether the dressing gown incident was modeled on Nathaniel Branden inadvertently leaving behind some memento of his afternoons in their apartment.

There are some similarities between Frank and Eddie. Both are men of principle, but they lack drive and stand passively by while their objects of affection couple with other men.

So there certainly seems to be an element of sadism in the depiction of Eddie. On the other hand, Dagny seems to enjoy getting knocked around while being knocked up, so there also seems to be an element of masochism there.

Is that possible? In real life, do S&Ms take turns? And when they’ve finished, who gets to do the washing up?

Brendan


Post 17

Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 7:45pmSanction this postReply
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Brendan-

On "S&M"

In contemporary BDSM subcultures, "taking turns" depends on the interests of the participants- I say 'participants' because the length of activity can very from a short "scene" to a long-term romantic relationship.

Most people in the Scene begin as submissives, and it is common for submissives to eventually explore a dominant persona as well; a person who plays either role is called a "switch",  Some dominants, also, in time, develop submissive sides and also become switches.

However, unless both partners are switches, doms and subs do not "take turns" for that would not be enjoyable for both partners.  As a submissive with a very weak and embryonic domme persona who rarely comes out, I've little interest in changing roles. 

All of the above would apply to sadists and masochists as well.  It is well to remember that real kinky people are more often concerned with giving over direction or taking rights of direction; i.e., submission and dominance.  But masochism and sadism are also present; I am personally mildly to moderately masochistic (though masochism is not essential to my sexuality).  There too, a correspondent match between desires is primary.

As for who cleans up... well, that depends.  If it's a short scene, both persons (or the dungeon staff) would clean up once the participants are "out of character".  With simple sadism and masochism, there wouldn't be any difference than with vanilla relationships, since the enjoyment of pain is irrelevant to who does the chores.  With dominants and submissives... whoever the dominant tells to!  But in D/s the default person responsible would undeniably be the dominant who takes responsibility for everything relevant to the relationship unless otherwise negotiated.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity.

regards,

Jeanine Ring {))(*)((} 


Post 18

Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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Brendan,

I think it's a bit like where an animal marks as a given territory, for a specific purpose.

We humans tend to form strong and lasting associations whereby we always tend to see a given person in a set role, with relation to ourselves.  And for them, breaking out of that is a hard thing indeed.

So basically, let's say that we have two people:  Dick and Jane.  Dick is submissive and masochistic with relation to Jane, who is of course an utter shrike:  dominant and sadistic.

Now, does that mean that Jane is always dominant, everywhere?  No.  But her dynamic with Dick will most likely always be that way.  Jane might meet Gus, the Hell's Angel, and find that he will tolerate none of her crap.  Around him, she would have no dynamic room but to be submissive.  And that would be their comfortable dynamic, most likely, forever.

So, we see here that Jane has both a dark and light side to her moon.  I think we all do.  But in order to see one side or the other, you have to be in a very different position, with regard to the moon, and the light source has to be in a certain place.

What's interesting is that Dick will likely whine because Gus is enjoying a side of Jane that he doesn't get to.  However, keep in mind that things might be bad for Gus, too:  Gus is only of value to Jane, so long as he can keep up the facade (or actual state) of strength... at least Dick gets to relax and be weak. 

You see, Jane is a tiresome, trifling, and mostly unrewarding pain-in-the-ass who is largely only capable of making males miserable.  Both guys end up miserable.  *L*


Post 19

Monday, October 18, 2004 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the information, Jeanine and Orion. That’s probably as much detail as my vanilla ears can digest for the moment. You’ve certainly opened my eyes, if nothing else. Until now, I had thought that “switching” in S&M parlance related to riding crops and the like, but clearly there’s a lot more to it than that.

In fact, it sounds like a fairly complex and, er, fluid pastime – “S&Ms”, “dominants and submissives”, “out of character”. I can understand why discipline would be important in maintaining one’s position, as it were.

Orion, you have some interesting turns of phrase. I assume much of what you say is metaphorical, but your comments about Jane’s dark and light side sparked my interest.

I’m a lights-out, under-the-blankets man myself, so a light source doesn’t really feature in my repertoire. Where does that leave me vis-a-vis the placing of the light source? Would it be OK to place it outside the room, with the door slightly ajar? More romantically, perhaps I could open the curtains slightly to allow a little moonlight to penetrate. Any thoughts?

Brendan


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