Michael Moore

I will also add that I am a mystic in the spirit of Ken Wilber anyone interested in learning about spirituality or the mystic philosophical view, I suggest they read mr Wilber's book, An introductory reader, or to take up chi kung, or reiki, believe me you will have your materialist world view challenged.

Mr. Skinner-

I am familiar with Ken Wilber; my impression is that he does an artful job talking apart dualism and says some things that very much need to be said opposing a Cartesian ontology of the self. However, he then switches to a dissolving organicism, in trying to overcome dualism, sets up a dualism between the organic and the instrumental that simply redualizes the human condition... the fallacy of all organicisms is that the transcending of dualisms by denial of the atomic/instrumental aspects of the human condition are still dualistic. Still, I respect Wilber as an interesting writer with valid insights, and specially a very honest person, for instance in his approach to postmodernism. I personally recommend Chris Sciabarra'a Total Freedom: Towards a Dialectical Libertarianism and Ayn Rand: the Russian Radical for a discussion of the problems of the organic methodology, particularly his discussion of Solovyov's philosophy in the latter work... Sciabarra point to a dialectical orientation that transcends both the dualism, atomism, and monism typical of Western 'materialist' thinkers and the organicism of "Eastern' thought.

But aside...

Mmmm... oh, forgive me, but 'materialist world view'*? Wasn't I just quoting Blake? Oh dear, oh dear. Might a curious woman suggest that social intercourse is more pleasant without such assumptions, mmn? I am a material girl, certainly, but I do think there is more to experience in life.

Oh, Mike, you are really, really preaching to the temple. As most Pagan escorts, I know the basics of working with chi; I use energy in my work and am learning tantra, and I've been very grateful on occasion to receive some reiki at the St. James Infirmary here in San Francisco. But with my philosophic background and amatewr historianism, I really work much better with spiritual traditions based more on symbolism and association, especially with my Husserlian background, which breaks down the alignment of consciousness/object with spiritual/material, logically led me to conclude that 'material' (outer sensory) entities can be used as concepts or percepts and that 'spiritual' (inner sensory) entities are still objects of consciousness and that our 'ideas' are not necessarily the exhaustion of the set. That, and in the practise of my vocation, which has its own spiritual traditions, gives me an art of personality which ends up involving the same basic thing.

Am I making myself clear? If so, I would appreciate an apology for making assumptions about my metaphysics, especially when I openly list myself as Pagan on my profile.

If the above isn't clear, then might I suggest you take down your patronizing tone, because I'm not a materialist, and I might know a bit about what you assume I mindlessly reject. And I am a Western technological type who believes in observing, comprehending, and making use of anything that exists in this cosmos... so if I take reiki or chi seriously, I prefer not to have it treated as some spiritual superiority to posture over inferior materialists with, but as another inquiry for the intellect and potential means of pursuing happiness. Of course, doing so may end up taking a long circuitous route around instrumental rationality for the means, but so does art. It is still the pursuit of happiness on this Earth.

I am a libertarian, and I respect your right to swing your fist until you get too close to my nose. You can say whatever you like (except for the proverbial 'kill' to the trained attack dog), and it's not ultimately my concern. But I still do not exactly appreciate your tone, and may I suggest a good baseline rule with strangers, until they prove otherwise, is the old gun rights slogan, 'an armed society is a polite society.'?

Exstasis,

Jeanine Shiris Ring ))()((
promiscuity of the mind leads to promiscuity of the body

* For that matter, Objectivism is not a materialist world view either; it is seculae and atheistic but does not reduce consciousness to existence... or at least it didn't, before it started uncritically playing 'science says' with sociobiology.

Post 21

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 - 10:31am

Sorry Jeanine, I don't recall calling you a materialist? What post was that?

Post 22

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 - 10:36am

Oh I see I wrote.

'To Jeannine, I say to you make your own mind up watch his films and read his books. Otherwise you'll never know yourself, and research his sources to see if their erroneous, why not surf the net for as many journalist sources you can find, of right and left, and see if saudi arabian oil ties to the bushes aren't well known.

I will also add that I am a mystic in the spirit of Ken Wilber anyone interested in learning about spirituality or the mystic philosophical view, I suggest they read mr Wilber's book, An introductory reader, or to take up chi kung, or reiki, believe me you will have your materialist world view challenged.'

The second paragraph wasn't directed at you, it honestly didn't mean to offend you, sorry if I didn't clarify that, my english presentation isn't what it should be.

Post 23

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 - 11:07am

Jeanine you wrote:
'If the above isn't clear, then might I suggest you take down your patronizing tone, because I'm not a materialist, and I might know a bit about what you assume I mindlessly reject. And I am a Western technological type who believes in observing, comprehending, and making use of anything that exists in this cosmos... so if I take reiki or chi seriously, I prefer not to have it treated as some spiritual superiority to posture over inferior materialists with, but as another inquiry for the intellect and potential means of pursuing happiness.'

Again Jeanine, and everyone, I apologize if I came across as patronizing, I dislike typing because it doesn't give access to my body language or voice tone. BTW Jeanine check out wong kiew kit's website you will if you want to learn more about chi kung, BTW I'll give you a call when you've mastered tantric sex ;-).

I'm probably going to have some time off from the forum about a week or two, too much debating puts me in debate mode, which I sometimes can't turn off, I keep trying to have debates with my girlfriend about music (check out Morrisey's latest album). And Bush won so I'm pretty bummed and I need to pray for the poor brown people, who will suffer at his hands.

Parting words.
If you want a war on terror, have a war on the arms dealers who supply them with the weapons to be terrorists.

'So there, we have figured it out, go back to bed America, your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed America, your government is in control again. Here, here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up. Go back to bed America, here's American Gladiators. Here's 56 channels of it. Watch these pituitary retards bang their skulls together and congratulate yourselves on living in the land of freedom. Here you go America, and keep repeating; you are free... to do as we tell you. You are free... to do as we tell you. And by the way keep drinking beer you morons' - Bill Hicks on the JFK conspiracy.

Post 24

Thursday, November 4, 2004 - 11:33am

Again Jeanine, and everyone, I apologize if I came across as patronizing, I dislike typing because it doesn't give access to my body language or voice tone. BTW Jeanine check out wong kiew kit's website you will if you want to learn more about chi kung, BTW I'll give you a call when you've mastered tantric sex ;-).

Marcus-

Oh, very well, very well, very well, apology accepted. And I apologize for my initial touchiness here... being the vocal religious nut around here nut frazzled me up about having to defend myself *both* ways. Though in fairness, you are misinformed if you believe Objectivists to be materialists, just become they are atheists and moderns; some of them I've met are quite personally open to alternative natural philosophies.

As for the voice and body language... this I understand greatly. I have the highest respect for the literary arts, but there is something in the American conception of language that reduces public use of gestures to aggression and emphasis, and this is highly disappointing. Though that doesn't mean it's not worth learning the skillful use of the pen.

As for politics, please understand I agree with you on many points, and do wish critiques of America's foreign policy as imperialism would get more of an open-minded hearing in Objectivist circles. And I feel no better than you with the elections, if due to domestic more than foreign concerns; I believe this election to mean that the culture war is over; let honest conservatives celebrate a victory I hope they will not regret. America has chosen 'America' and 'the West over its skeptics... I merely reserve that I, a cosmopolitan who believes that the separation of nation and natural value is the only hope for both philosophy and tolerance, believe a terrible mistake has been made. And it is ultimately the Left that bears the blame, the Left than decided to oppose the establishment's claim to embody reason by attacking reason and not its captivity in an inherited tradition. But blame hardly matters at this point. It is, thankfully, at least over.

The hand of time writes, and having writ
moves on, nor all your piety nor wit
can lure it back to cancel half a line
nor all you tears wash out a word of it.
                                         [the Rubaiyat]

On lighter matters; oh dear, I cannot resist an interest in my time... you are certainly welcome to request my companionship; and I'll drop a note when I've mastered (mistressed?) tantra! Oh, please feel free to call! (of course, as a transgender woman my company is currently a specialty taste, but that will have changed by late this coming Spring or so.)

amused regards,

Jeanine Shiris Ring   {)(*)(}
"not all those who wander are lost"

Post 25

Tuesday, November 9, 2004 - 2:49pm

EEK!

I joined SOLOHQ earlier this evening and have had a fun few hours reading - not many message threads though. I generally read websites on the ARI side of ARI/TOC but have often found some views very conservative. Hence, I found this site refreshing - especially the founding statements by Linz (am I allowed to call him that yet?). Until now!

I watched Fahrenheit on the eve of the US election. To the credit of the network that hosted it - it was followed by a panel debate. The panel was mixed with Americans and South Africans, liberals and conservatives. The result was that many of the lies were debunked and the frauds exposed. However, many of my colleagues never watched the debate and had a completely different view - pity! This just illustrates the power of visual media and gullibility of even educated people given a well chosen topic (the War on Terror isn't well viewed in SA). We all agreed on one point though: A movie was made that blatantly criticizes a state leader. This isn't possible in most countries - therein lies a sobering truth.

I've also watched Columbine and read Dude, where's my country and in my view the only thing Moore gets right (although not from the right premise) is his attack on the Patriot Act.

So Mike, I advise you to take your own advice and watch Michael Moore's films again. More importantly read Ayn Rand's books again.

"Let me introduce myself, this is my first post. My name is" Wayne. I do have strong philosophical convictions.

"I will hang around though - in hope that the quality will improve."

Post 26

Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 12:33am

Wayne - welcome aboard. And do not fret. There are *very* few fans of the maggot Moore among SOLOists. Have you not encountered the term "Saddamite" here yet? :-)

Linz

Post 27

Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 4:02pm