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Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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At the risk of upsetting The Venerable Ayatollah Jeanine Ring and her-his band of devoutly loyal militants that have recently commandeered a politically-correct, iron-fisted, liberal lunatic control of SOLO, I have another topic to bring up:

The Muslims darlings are at it again in Iraq... Masked gunmen have kidnapped relatives of Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, and have threatened to behead them in two days if he doesn't call off the assault on Fallujah.

Also, it appears that in addition to the appalling number of kidnappings and murders in Iraq, actual slaughterhouse sites (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6449794/) for those foreigners have also been discovered!  Oh joy:
More than 170 foreigners have been kidnapped by insurgents in Iraq since Saddam Hussein’s regime fell in April 2003. More than 30 foreign hostages have been killed. Many of the kidnappers pursue political motives such as the withdrawal of foreign companies and troops from Iraq.

 

On Wednesday, an Iraqi general told reporters that Iraqi troops had discovered “hostage slaughterhouses” in the city of Fallujah where foreign captives were held and killed.






Sorry for pointing all that out... Her-His Majesty Jeanine Ring doesn't like that sort of talk; it suggests that action be taken against a group of people who are merely behaving "differently", and that such behavior would hysterically snowball into John Ashcroft smashing down Jeanine's door and hauling her-him off for "felony sexual use of a garden gnome, jumper cables, and Miracle Whip Mayonnaise".  After all, freedom is more important than reason... when you're not really an Objectivist, but a mystical anarchist.

And what's worse, Barbara Branden might start pointing her royal sceptre and roar, "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!" again!  (This leaves me wondering:  were things any different during the heyday of The Nathaniel Branden Institute?) 

But oh, no!!  Mea culpa!!!  Please forgive me!!!  I forgot to maintain a facade of polite, depraved indifference and self-indulgent lunacy!!!   
 
But oh wait; Ashcroft has resigned... Oh well, I guess he wasn't the all-powerful threat the loonies always said he was.  There goes that theory!

(This has been a message from NBC:  The Nauseated Broadcasting Corporation)



(Edited by Orion Reasoner on 11/10, 1:13pm)


Post 1

Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
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Orion,

I am sure you said it in some earlier post but, if you do not mind saving me the trouble, when you say "Muslim", do you refer to anyone who claims to be Muslim (regardless of how they interpret the Koran), or do you only refer to what some would call "Islamic fundamentalists".  By fundamentalists, I refer to any Muslim who interpret the Koran literally in a similar degree to how the Evangelical Protestants interpret the Bible literally.  Also, do you advocate force against anyone who is a Muslim, regardless of whether or not they themselves have inititiated physical force against anyone?

For example, I have a colleague who refers to himself as Muslim.  He does not pray five times a day and he does not go to a mosque regularly.  He does not believe a jihad against the "infidels", nor does he interpret "jihad" to mean physical violence against non-Muslims.  He has not read the Koran cover-to-cover, much less know it word-for-word.  He says he is Muslim because his parents say they are Muslim and, in the part of the world his family came from, the majority of people are Muslim.  In every aspect of his life, you could say that he was secular in outlook.  Would he fall under your definition of a Muslim?


Post 2

Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 1:08pmSanction this postReply
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Byron,

I say you will never truly know your "friend", until the time comes for him to actually choose sides, and then I suspect that you will see something very interesting happen.


Post 3

Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 1:55pmSanction this postReply
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Orion: “I forgot to maintain a facade of polite, depraved indifference and self-indulgent lunacy!!!”

Don’t be so hard on yourself, Orion. You are doing a magnificent job of maintaining your façade of self-indulgent lunacy. As Jeanine might say: Shine forth!


Post 4

Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 2:09pmSanction this postReply
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So IS that your answer Orion? Well then I can only deduce that you ARE advocating genocide on the rationale that they deep down all want to kill us. If I'm wrong then please be clear. No need to be mysteriouos and hide behind sub-text and cleaver messages. Just say it. I for one want to know. 

Post 5

Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 2:12pmSanction this postReply
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Orion,

I referred to him as a colleague, not a friend.  He does not happen to be my friend, though that was not the point of my question.  As for choosing sides, he is one of the finest servicemen I have ever worked with, if that means anything.  I have served with him in combat, and I would trust him with my life.


Post 6

Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan to Orion "I can only deduce that you ARE advocating genocide."

Ethan, neither deduction nor induction is needed. Only the ability to read.

Barbara

Post 7

Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 2:56pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Barbara. I agree, but want to hear if he has the honesty to say exactly what he means, or if he understands what he's saying. To tell the truth, I stopped reading a lot of threads do to what I perceived as an undercurrent of bigotry by certain posters. I noted the large upset recently and discovered just how far this seems to have gone. I though Byron's post was a reasonable strait-forward and clear question. I found Orions answer to be clear, and yet not explicit. I want to see if he'll come out and say it :-)

Post 8

Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 4:15pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan, neither deduction nor induction is needed. Only the ability to read.
Miss Branden, remind me never to cross swords with you!

George


Post 9

Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
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If you stop feeding the animals they'll stop pestering you.

Post 10

Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 11:29pmSanction this postReply
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*LOL*  This is all really quite amusing.

You know, I've come to realize that the key to enjoying myself is just to follow the lead of my good friend, Mr. George Cordero, and allow myself to simply enjoy this as a childish game of mental cruelty.

Yes.  I think that's it.  I'm going to now become just as mentally dense as the rest of you, and just allow you to exhaust yourselves trying to argue with me.  *S*  My assessments, like yours, will be of only the most shallow and vapid sort... and your posts I will only skim over at the very most.

I do so look forward to this new trend in things... Of course, at least I have the courage to admit that this is really my strategy from now on, unlike you people.  *L*

Ah, childhood... Does it ever really end?

(Edited by Orion Reasoner on 11/10, 11:30pm)


Post 11

Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 11:34pmSanction this postReply
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What also amuses me, is how the most malignant gremlins who frequent this forum, have taken it upon themselves to register multiple times under different handles, so that they may create the illusion of "multiple" people all in consensus over a common issue. 

*L*  No matter how cynical I become about human nature, it turns out to never be cynical enough.


Post 12

Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 12:01amSanction this postReply
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What the bleeding hell?  Huh?

Post 13

Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 12:59amSanction this postReply
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No matter how cynical I become about human nature, it turns out to never be cynical enough.

Orion, I'm a nice guy 97% of the time including right now. I'm not out to scorch you.

You have a propensity to examine thoroughly how others affect your life. You are neglecting to examine thoroughly how you affect the lives of others. 


Post 14

Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 1:24amSanction this postReply
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Lance,

Thank you... And I don't believe negatively of you at this time.

And I'm not sure I follow what you mean, actually.  If you mean that I'm not aware that I'm making points that people disagree with but need to be said and are causing them discomfort for this reason, then yes, I'm quite aware of doing that, and it is my sincerest intention to do so.  But if you mean something beyond that, then you'll have to clarify what you mean.


Post 15

Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 2:19amSanction this postReply
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George: "Miss Branden, remind me never to cross swords with you!"

Why, George, I'm a pussy cat!

Barbara

Post 16

Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 6:06amSanction this postReply
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Paranoia is a sad thing :-)

Post 17

Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 9:59amSanction this postReply
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Orion:

"Byron,

I say you will never truly know your "friend", until the time comes for him to actually choose sides, and then I suspect that you will see something very interesting happen."

Ok, Yep. You are advocating genocide. That makes it pretty clear. Peaceful Muslims do not get a pass. I see three possibilities: You're too egotistical to admit error, a lunatic, or evil. Nice individualism you are sporting, there, Orion. "They are (insert name here) so they should be killed." Personal merit and behavior is trumped by group membership. And your posts are ~so~ sarcastic, venomous and just pain nasty, what the heck kind of SOL do you possess?

Post 18

Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 11:46amSanction this postReply
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Scott,

Rather than argue with you incessantly on this, I'll just point out the following:

Several medium- to high-ranking U.S. military personnel at Guantanamo Bay have been charged with suspicion of espionage... they are both Muslim. 

But, don't take my word for it... Here's the story, straight from the keyboards of CNN.com:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Following the arrests of two U.S. servicemen suspected of spying, at least two other members of the U.S. military are being closely watched in an investigation of possible espionage activities at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, officials said Wednesday.

The Pentagon is broadening its investigation and trying to determine whether a conspiracy is involved, according to the officials.

On Tuesday, Pentagon officials said Air Force Senior Airman Ahmad al Halabi -- who worked at the U.S. Navy base where suspected al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists are held -- had been arrested and charged with espionage and aiding the enemy.

Al Halabi's attorney denied the charges against his client Wednesday. "Airman al Halabi is not a spy," Air Force Maj. James E. Key told CNN. "He is not a terrorist, and he and his family are shocked that he is accused of taking actions that would be contrary to the United States' interest."

Another member of the military who also worked at Guantanamo -- Islamic chaplain and Army Capt. James Yee -- is being held on suspicion of espionage and treason in at a stockade in Charleston, South Carolina. Yee has not been charged.

Investigators are trying to determine whether the men are linked in a conspiracy, official said.

According to al Halabi's charge sheet, he is also accused of failing to report unauthorized communications between U.S. troops and detainees, who are designated as enemy combatants. More than 600 suspects, brought to the base after the war in Afghanistan, are housed there.

Al Halabi was arrested July 23 because he allegedly had classified information on his laptop computer about detainees and facilities at the Guantanamo Bay base, Pentagon officials said. He is being held at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.

An American of Syrian descent, al Halabi allegedly e-mailed information to people in Syria that included details about the base's flight schedule, officials said.

Al Halabi was charged with 11 counts of failing to obey a lawful general order or regulation; three counts of aiding the enemy, four counts of espionage; nine counts of making a false statement; bank fraud and violations of the Federal Espionage Act.

Al Halabi served nine months at Guantanamo Bay as a translator and was arrested about seven weeks before Yee was taken into custody.

Military authorities took Yee into custody September 10 at the naval air station in Jacksonville, Florida, while he was in possession of classified documents "that a chaplain shouldn't have," said an official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The official said the documents included "diagrams of the cells and the facilities at Guantanamo."

In addition, Yee is suspected of having ties to radical Muslims in the United States who are under investigation, the official said.
Now, ask me again, what my "sense of life" is... 

Because I'll be glad to tell you:  My sense of life is the obsession with having all cards on the table... nothing up sleeves or hidden under the table.  Because the only fair game, is an honest game.

These spies were somebody's friend, who I'm sure would have been huffing and puffing with outrage -- just like you are right now -- had somebody ever dared to voice a suspicion of them before they were actually caught in the act.


Post 19

Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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Orion, let's not mix apples and organutans. Here's where we agree. All the cards should be on the table. No game is fair when back-room dealing is going on. It isnt just an issue of the ~appearance~ of impropriety, either. I agree that when you catch a scumbag's hand in the cookie jar, you cut it off. It is one piece of evidence that stands for thousand cookie-jar excursions.

But really, do you ~honestly~ believe that every Muslim everywhere is part of this conspiracy, and do you believe it so certainly that you are willing to pronounce a death sentence upon them all?

Now might be a good time to keep context clear. Ayn Rand certainly was a proponent of black and white value judgments and an objective right and wrong in any particular context. But she was also a fan of individual intellectual sovereignty--and the collection of acutal, factual evidence for a position. That means: SHOW me the evidence that gives you the high degree of certainty such that your benevolence and love of life is overcome in favor or a death-strike to whatever-millions of people. One crooked translator? Well, I agree with you that if we caught one, 5 got by us. But it is a heck of a leap from here to throw out the baby and bathwater and let the bloodshed commence.

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