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Monday, December 20, 2004 - 10:26pmSanction this postReply
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I stumbled across this site today. I was not aware of it before.

I can't believe it -- Objectivism that kicks ass!

I saw the Objectivist pick up lines -- cracked up -- and knew this was going to be my new hangout.

Briefly about myself: I came to Ayn Rand through libertarianism (instead of vice versa). I have read all her novels and probably all the non-fiction, including back issues of the Objectivist and the Ayn Rand Letter. I've also read The Passion of Ayn Rand and Judgment Day and a lot of Nathaniel Branden's books.

My thinking is influenced by Ayn Rand more than by anyone else, but I maintain my own independent judgment and there are things in her writings that I disagree with.

For my first post I'll ask this question. I recently re-read Atlas Shrugged and was disturbed by an episode I hadn't remembered: Dagny shooting and killing the guard in the climax of the book. Did she take the ethically proper action? Couldn't she have just kneecapped him or something?

Post 1

Monday, December 20, 2004 - 11:42pmSanction this postReply
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Welcome to the site Jared.

Kneecapped? Why? This wasn't a clerical worker, this was an armed guard defending the torture of an innocent man. He would have shot Dagny had he needed to, and they would have killed John Galt. What if the guard, though disabled, managed to get a shot off anyway?

The only reason tv characters like Charlie's Angel's, or comic characters like Spiderman and Batman don't use guns, is because it's fiction, and they are superheroes. We are human, and live in the real world. Rand was honest enough to see that.

In KINGDOM COME, Superman and Wonder Woman are faced with a doomsday crisis. Wonder Woman wields a deadly magic sword. Superman, disturbed by her martial manner, says, "I'm uneasy with the blade," to which Wonder Woman replies, "Not all of us have heat vision."



Post 2

Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 8:27amSanction this postReply
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I don't suppose you would advocate kneecapping a terrorist in Iraq who has taken hostage an american, british, japaneese, french, or german citizen?

The guard in the book was given a chance to get out of the way and surrender.  When he didn't he showed that he was a man sanctioning the torture of John Galt.  More to the point, he was protecting tyrants who were torturing Galt. 

~E


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Post 3

Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 8:19amSanction this postReply
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You say he would have shot Dagny if he needed to, but clearly he wouldn't. She probably could have just brushed right past him:

"I can't shoot at you, seeing as you come from Mr. Thompson! And I can't let you in against the word of Dr. Ferris! What am I to do? I'm only a little fellow!"

Post 4

Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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Well, there is no predicting what a irrational person might do. I wouldn't risk my own life on the hunch that he wouldn't shot me. Too much is at stake.

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Post 5

Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 3:26pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Jared first thanks for coming to the site, Good to talk with you and welcome.
(My first post on this thread was written in haste because I was on my way to work)

Lets take a look at this quote you have given us and do both ethical and literary analysis of the situation as it appears in Atlas Shrugged so that you can understand why it is there and what significance it has.

"I can't shoot at you, seeing as you come from Mr. Thompson! And I can't let you in against the word of Dr. Ferris! What am I to do? I'm only a little fellow!"


Literary Analysis:

At this point in the story the climax is being brought to a close and Rand is closing all her minor and major conflicts so that the story will come to a resolute end. The scene that this quote comes from is important because the guard represents a concrete example of a certain philosophy which we, as readers, have seen presented in every part of the book since the beginning.

The guard is a concrete example of the philosophy of the second-hander or, in NON-Objectivist language, a person who does not think for themselves and acts as a mental parasite on others. We can see that the guard represents an example of the non-thinking second hander from the quote above where he wrestles with the problem of conflicting orders from his two superiors. His response to the situation is not to think for himself but to find a new host brain to do the thinking for him. Thusly, he turns to Dagny and says, "What am I to do?" and as many second-handers do throughout the novel he presents an excuse for his non-thought, "I’m only a little fellow!"

Dagny, by this time in the story had just realized that the root result behind the philosophy of the second hander was death. So the scene with the guard is an event meant to place in concrete action terms the realization that Dagny had come to earlier. The significance of this scene is two fold, firstly it shows how each philosophy responds to the knowledge that a man is being held against his will and tortured, secondly it shows what happens when the producer comes into conflict with his aggressor the second-hander.

Both Dagny and the Guard are aware that Galt is being held and tortured but lets look at their different responses. Dagny, as a life loving producer rushes to save the life of the innocent man being tortured. The Guard, as a death loving second-hander does not rush to save the life of an innocent man but instead worries about what he is to do about opening the door for Dagny. When presented with the choice between life and death, the Guard attempted not to choose but not choosing in a life or death situation is a choice unto itself, he chose death. Life can only be supported by action, in choosing to not think or act he choose instead to support the death of John Galt and his own death.

If Dagny had not shot him, this situation would not have served its literary goal of illustrating the conflict and difference between the producer that is life and the second-hander that is death. It would have been inconsistent with the major theme of the novel to just knee cap the guard at the door because we felt sorry for a man who did not care enough about himself to get out of the way or think for himself. If you do not value your life enough to think, why should I value it and think for you?


Ethical Analysis:


The guard by choosing to blindly follow the orders of his superiors was a party to the infringement of the rights of John Galt who was being held wrongly against his will and tortured. The rescue of Galt in a realistic situation would not have been as literary with dialogue between the rescuers and guards. As in any hostage situation the hostage takers and those who support them are not to be considered on the same level as the life of the hostage. The goal of the rescuers, if they are SWAT or Gultchers, is to save the life of the innocent and bring the guilty to justice in that order of importance. The fact that the guard was shoot dead is ethically of as much importance as the shooting of a hostage taker during a SWAT operation.

Remember that Atlas Shrugged is a novel meant to illustrate the philosophy of Objectivism not necessarily always in the literal sense but in the figurative way. Like a painting or any piece of art, it deals in symbols that represent abstractions that illustrate a point.

My Best,

~E.


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Post 6

Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
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Dagny shoots the guard in Atlas Shrugged because he is indecisive and refuses to make a choice.

When Dagny confronts the guard, she identifies herself and says she has Mr Thompson’s permission to enter the building. The guard has orders from Dr Ferris to bar the door. There is no issue of self-defence, since the guard tells Dagny that he cannot shoot at her, because she is an emissary from Mr Thompson.

The issue is presented as one of choice: Dagny tells the guard he has to choose which order he will disobey; the price of the wrong choice is his life. When he will not make a choice, she shoots the man “who wanted to exist without the responsibility of consciousness.”

The point Rand is making is that we should take responsibility for making choices, and that some of these choices are a matter of life and death. Fair enough. Unfortunately, in presenting the issue the way she does, Rand’s didactic intentions undermine her literary aims.

How so? Well, in order that Dagny can present the guard with a choice, she must remind him of who she is, and with whom she appears to be allied. Otherwise, she could just be some random trespasser, and the guard would be duty-bound by the requirements of his job to bar her entry.

But in revealing her identity to the guard, she sets herself up as a rival authority to Dr Ferris. She also tells the guard he cannot know for sure whether she has orders from Thompson, nor that Thompson and Ferris may have agreed to let her enter the building. So in addition to her greater authority, Dagny has more information – the guard cannot know whether or not she is bluffing – and she is also willing to use violence.

In other words, Dagny and the guard are not on a level playing field. Dagny occupies the high ground in terms of her authority, superior information and coercion, but she insists that the guard take part in a charade of “choice”.

I think this is why the reader finds this passage disturbing, and why it represents a literary and philosophical miscalculation by the author. Our sympathies are supposed to stay firmly with Dagny, but because she presents the guard – and the reader -- with an impossible choice, our empathy shifts from Dagny to the guard.

As a result, his killing “feels” wrong, but it requires some analysis to see why this feeling is justified.

Brendan


Post 7

Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 10:09amSanction this postReply
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Eric: Thanks for your detailed response. I think you are exactly right in expressing Rand's intention. I also love the expression "host brain to do the thinking for him." I'll have to use that some time.

Also, your SWAT team analysis does make sense to me. When a SWAT team rescues hostages they may in fact kill guards who are mere dupes and not knowingly supporting evil, and that is ethically acceptable.

However, Brendan hit the nail precisely on the head with the reason the scene makes me uncomfortable. The guard is supposed to make a rational choice but he does not have the information needed to do so. He probably doesn't know who Galt is and may not know about the torture.



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Post 8

Friday, December 24, 2004 - 1:02amSanction this postReply
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That was an excellent post, Eric.  You've hit the nail on the head.  Dagny struggles throughout the book to understand that the enemy doesn't want to live, that life is not their goal, and she finally gets it a couple hours before this scene.  She confronts the guard, and he won't even step out of the way of a bullet.

I find it preposterous that people are saying this guard didn't have enough information to make a rational choice.  He had a gun pointed at him.  His choice was to move aside or die.  He didn't need to know exactly who Dagny worked for, or who was behind the door.  He had to make a choice based on what he knew.  That's rationality.  Rationality is not having to learn every single fact in order to make a decision.

I think this is also based on a confusion.  Under a very different context, he might try to fight it out on principle.  If he was sure that it was the right thing to do, based on his knowledge of the situation, then some people may choose to try to prevent it.  But this guy didn't know anything.  He was asked to put his life on the line for no reason.  The fact that he was paid to do it means nothing.  That's a job he should quit right then and there.  Given the situation, the rational thing for him to do was to surrender and step aside.

Now imagine the situation a little different.  The world is sane and peaceful for the most part.  But there's this really evil guy, let's just call him Hitler to make the point, stuck in the cell below.  Some hoodlums show up to try to free him, and you know that the world is going to be in terrible shape if he's allowed to go free.  The knowledge you have and your convictions lead you to the decision that you're going to resist and try to prevent the disaster.  See how that's different from the bumbling guard who knows nothing and has no convictions?

If the guard thought he was guarding Hitler, but was really guarding Galt, it would have been what people are saying.  Dagny would have been killing a man who didn't know the truth when she did, and not giving him the information was preventing him from making the right choice.  But that wasn't how the story went, and confusing it is just taking the scene out of context.

So the rational choice of the guard would have been to step aside precisely because of his lack of knowledge.

And we should keep in mind that the guard wasn't resisting in the book.  He was just standing there, waiting for someone else to make the decision for him.  He wasn't some noble guard, doing his duty.  He was someone trying to live without the need for acting towards his own self-preservation.  Life without the self-generated, self-sustaining action.  That she killed him in the end was explained by Eric.  That she felt no remorse was explained by the fact that what was standing in front of her only had the outward appearance of a living human being.

Post 9

Friday, December 24, 2004 - 6:16amSanction this postReply
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Joe R. wrote:
"If the guard thought he was guarding Hitler, but was really guarding Galt, it would have been what people are saying. Dagny would have been killing a man who didn't know the truth when she did, and not giving him the information was preventing him from making the right choice. But that wasn't how the story went, and confusing it is just taking the scene out of context."

Just want to add that the case of Cheryl Taggart (almost) illustrates this. She thought she was defending a hero (Taggart) but was really defending a villain (Taggart.) I have a feeling Rand created a parallel between the two scenes, where Cheryl kills herself by choice, but the guard can't even make that decision.
(Edited by Joe Maurone on 12/24, 8:45pm)


Post 10

Friday, December 24, 2004 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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Joe: “I find it preposterous that people are saying this guard didn't have enough information to make a rational choice.  He had a gun pointed at him.  His choice was to move aside or die.”

And in real life even the most abject lackey of the state would choose to move aside. But we’re not talking realism here. Rand decided that her guard was irrational enough to throw away his own life, and that’s the text we have to work with.

The context of this passage is that Dagny sets herself up as a rival authority to Dr Ferris, and demands to be let into the building on that authority. She then demands that the guard should ignore all authority and make his own decision. But in that case, he should also ignore her authority, and if he does that, the basis for her demand is negated – she is just somebody standing before him holding a gun.

And since she is holding a gun on him, by Objectivist lights, she is interceding between his mind and reality. Yet Dagny is demanding that the guard act according to reality.

In that context, the guard cannot make a rational choice. What he can do is “instinctively” save his life, but that would defeat Rand’s didactic purposes.

Brendan


Post 11

Friday, December 24, 2004 - 1:58pmSanction this postReply
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Joe, very interesting idea.

Brendan, I wonder why you've stayed here for 4 years desperately trying to find flaws in Objectivism or Rand's writings?  What's the obsession?  And of course, you're still wrong as usual.

Dagny invalidated the guards ability to rely on an authority by presenting competing authorities.  She then said that he was stuck no relying on someone else...he had to make the choice himself.  Since he didn't know why he was there, he had no good reason to risk his life.  So stand aside.  He guard was unwilling to save his own life without having someone to make the decision for him.  When he was stuck having to choose his actions, or choose which authority to listen to, he stopped.  He refused to use his own mind even when his life was at stake.  He chose to die rather than think.

She wasn't interceding between his mind and reality...she was cutting off his own attempt to bypass reality.  He already had no reason to risk his life, but he had someone else's mind allowing him to bypass the choice.  She cut that off, leaving him with only his own mind.  And that was the logical conclusion of the philosophy that is anti-life because it is anti-mind.


Post 12

Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 2:58pmSanction this postReply
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Joe: “He chose to die rather than think…She wasn't interceding between his mind and reality...she was cutting off his own attempt to bypass reality.”

I know that this is the idea Rand wants to present. I just think she presents it badly. As has been pointed out, Dagny's context is that she has gained a sort of epiphany, whereby she now understands the full picture.

So when she confronts the guard, Dagny sees herself as a type of “truth-bearer”, who is trying to persuade the guard to see reality. But he cannot know this. His context is what he perceives -- a woman threatening him with a gun.

As for staying with SOLO for so long, I think this site offers some high-calibre discussion and a good test for my own thinking. So I guess I should say…thanks for the opportunity. Gotta hit the road. Happy holidays!

Brendan.


Post 13

Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 10:02pmSanction this postReply
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Rand did not need this scene to dramatize the point that the failure to think leads to death. She had already dramatized that point -- brilliantly and unforgettably -- in the railroad tunnel scene.

I think the guard scene was unnecessary and gives ammunition to Rand's critics. In Whittaker Chambers' infamous review of Atlas he said: "From almost any page of Atlas Shrugged, a voice can be heard, from painful necessity, commanding: 'To a gas chamber—go.'”

Well, that's not true of "almost any page" or even any page EXCEPT the guard scene. But the guard scene does give me pause.

Additionally: Rand seemed to think the guard was less than human and deserved what he got. I say he was an unfortunate who was the result of his training/education/culture but might have been redeemable.

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Post 14

Monday, December 27, 2004 - 8:45amSanction this postReply
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"Additionally: Rand seemed to think the guard was less than human and deserved what he got. I say he was an unfortunate who was the result of his training/education/culture but might have been redeemable. "

 

Ouch! I think you highlighted THE key point here without realizing it.  The notion that a person's thinking is simply a "result of his training/education/culture" is EXACTLY what Ayn Rand was attacking from the moment she began writing.   She wrote two major novels exploring the ethical results of second hand, irrational thinking.  She wrote dozens of articles on the topic and created a philosophical system (known is OBJECTIVISM) to combat it.   The group we belong to DOES NOT dictate our actions, and if we follow them blindly because of social habit that does not nullify our responsibility or make us "unfortunate".   The blind follower is guiltier then those he follows.   He is the worst of the worst.

 

It is hard to understand how someone could still argue for such nonsense after reading a 1000+ novel that thoroughly SMASHES almost every variation and element of it.   I apologize for being so aggressive on this point, but I regard the notion of the "blameless social mimicker" to be THE major ethical evil and I regard those that push ethical systems that promote this idea (socialism, communism, multiculturalism, feminism, nationalism, racism ect ect ect) to be my sworn enemies.

 

 - Jason




Post 15

Monday, December 27, 2004 - 9:56pmSanction this postReply
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But Jason:

Rand herself acknowledged that a person's ability to use his mind could be damaged, maybe irrevocably, by training/education/culture. See, e.g., The Comprachicos, her article on Progressive preschools.

Time and time again in various contexts she wrote that only an extraordinary, heroic person could survive the culture intact and remain rational.

The guard is surely not "the worst of the worst." Toohey is worse.

Post 16

Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 12:59amSanction this postReply
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Nonsense Jared.  Ayn Rand pointed out very astutely that man is the only type of being on earth that can choose either to think or not to think.   To consciously attempt to understand reality, or to evade it.  This is the choice... the key choice.  It is a choice I suspect we're all guilty of violating at times, and as Rand put it -- we are free to choose not to think, but we are not free to evade the results of that choice.   Those who have damaged themselves beyond repair by giving in to the habit of "mindless social mimicking" are just as guilty as those they follow.  The Toohey character was created as an archtype who seek to control such people.  I prefer not to apply Randian archtypes to real life situations, but lets look at it this way.  Who carried out the NAZI holocaust?  Did Hitler and his cronies carry it out?  Did they kill all of those people?  That would be impossible.  These crimes, and all such crimes throughout history are carried out by people who chose they easy route of giving in to social conformity and second handedness.  These people "wanted to be lead", because this allows them to avoid thinking things out themselves.  That way, they can always make they excuse: "I was only following orders".

- Jason

(For a more thorough understanding of social psychology and social mimicking habits I highly recommend the book "Influence: Science and Practice" by Robert Cialdini   --  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0321011473/qid=1104223689/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-6845005-8755125?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 12/28, 10:06am)

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 12/28, 10:07am)


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