Should an objectivist repent? :)

In response to the original question I said:

On the general question, of course an Objectivist should repent, if that means making up for wrong-doing and taking the personal steps necessary to avoid repeating the same kind of evil.

No one overtly disagreed except "katdaddy", but from the complete lack of a response to the original question and not even entertaining of the thought that Ian might need to make some kind of amends for his past *actions* (contrary to Bidinotto, past ideas aren't the only issue here), which none of you is even privy too except Ian himself, I must say I'm suspicious that you guys are all just a bunch of whim-worshipping hippies who only value Objectivism because you think it's some kind of hedonism.

Post 21

Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 11:55am

I must say I'm suspicious that you guys are all just a bunch of whim-worshipping hippies who only value Objectivism because you think it's some kind of hedonism.

I have a sudden whim to tell you to "Fuck off".

I think I'll go have a liter of vodka now and smoke some pot.

Post 22

Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 12:07pm

Thanks Jason, but I really didn't need more evidence in your particular case.

Post 23

Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 12:46pm

Well, if we take it to the extreme, if one were really, really bad, like Andre Taganov or Gail Wynand, he would pull the trigger...
Actually, I always thought that was extreme of Rand to have those characters do that, and wonder why she chose that method of penance...was it simply for drama, or was it a metaphor...was there no other way?

Post 24

Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 1:42pm

Hey Joe,
The whim-worshipping hedonist (i.e., I) would say it isn't so much penance as that they simply couldn't live with themselves knowing what they knew about themselves. If life is the standard of value, however, it would seem the cost of working out one's guilt would be outweighed by the potential future happiness to be gained by living out the rest of one's life. But I could certainly understand, in the context of how they had betrayed their values, how enourmous their guilt was.

On a different note, for the record, I've never smoked pot but I do enjoy vodka. Pot is too much of a downer for my fast-paced hedonist lifestyle. I might start snorting coke though, in order to live out my ideal of the hedonist I apparently am. And I think I might have lots and lots of casual sex with random strangers. And spend all my money. And why not take candy from babies. And...

(Edited by Jason Dixon on 3/16, 1:42pm)

Post 25

Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 2:02pm

Good grief, Jason -- don't spend all your money!

Barbara

Post 26

Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 2:18pm

Oh, you're right Barbara! How else would I have money for the coke, vodka, etc.? One can't buy those things with candy stolen from babies!

Post 27

Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 4:33pm

Shayne,

"I must say I'm suspicious that you guys are all just a bunch of whim-worshipping hippies who only value Objectivism because you think it's some kind of hedonism."

Dayamm! Does that mean we can't be friends anymore? That's sure gonna' keep me up nights.

I do have a question, though.

Why not ask Ian? He seems to like his reception. Do you know something everybody else - apparently including him - doesn't know?

Hey, Jason! Save a place for me! (Don't worry Barbara, I'll spot him for some of the hedonistic fun.)

Ian, please excuse the confusion. This kind of shit happens around here at times with aspiring preachers.

Michael

Post 28

Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 4:45pm

Hey Shayne, you must feel better now that you made your daily quota of moral denunciations.

Post 29

Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:41pm

Michael: I thought I made it clear that I was talking to the general question that was posed not to Ian; frankly I don't know whether he should repent or not, it depends. I was just trying to highlight the principle involved; applying it is his business. Unlike you folks, who seem to wish to obscure the principle, or outright deny it as at least one person has done.

Robert: Boo, hoo, someone didn't like your post. You sit there and whine at me while everyone here is applauding you and making jokes about me. Why would not this praise everyone's heaped on you be satisfying? You're an intelligent man. Perhaps it's because you know I'm right and you're wrong?

Post 30

Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:45pm

Shayne, don't let all these crazy people upset you. Of course if one has made serious mistakes, one should try to find out and correct whatever made those mistakes possible, so as to avoid making them in another form. I'm sure everyone here would agree with you about that. It just seems that everyone is a bit giddy today, which isn't really so bad, is it?

Barbara

Post 31

Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:58pm

Shayne,

OK, let's have a little reason around here.

"Michael: I thought I made it clear that I was talking to the general question that was posed..."

Wonderful, full agreement. So let's see your other words once again:

"I must say I'm suspicious that you guys are all just a bunch of whim-worshipping hippies who only value Objectivism because you think it's some kind of hedonism."

Sorry. That last quote sounded to me like pretentious "I'm so much better than this" sanctimonious pontificating and just plain name calling. Guess I was mistaken.

Wonder where I got that impression anyway?

Michael

Post 32

Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 8:00pm

Ian, if "repentance" has any secular meaning and rationally egoistic benefit, it is for the person doing the repenting. The online Merriam Webster dictionary lists one of the meanings of "repent" as "to change one's mind." You have done that and now you enjoy the benefits of rational thought.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I will speculate that your choice of ministry as a career came in part from your nature as a caregiver or nurturer or teacher. In other words, you might have a high sense of empathy for other people. This might drive you to feel the need to "repent" and publicly set the record straight to rectify whatever influence you had on the culture.

Dan Barker followed a path similar to yours and decided to actualize his "repentance" -- his change of mind and heart -- by writing Losing Faith in Faith and by forming the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Perhaps you would like to join forces with him and gain a sense of friendship with another "awakened" soul.

I will tell you that one benefit of groups like the SOLO Local Clubs is to offer moral support to those new to atheism and Objectivism. The loss of the social network that a church provides can devastate a person's sense of connection with others. So if you feel a need to actualize the changing of your mind while preserving your rationality, perhaps I can persuade you to serve as an Organizer for your local Ayn Rand Meetup. Let me know.

Post 33

Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 8:19am

"I must say I'm suspicious that you guys are all just a bunch of whim-worshipping hippies who only value Objectivism because you think it's some kind of hedonism."

Shane, You talking to me?

Yes, I am somewhat of a hippie, I love 60s music, nature and I've been told I look a lot like Janis Joplin. I'm no lefty or collectivist, just a groovy capitalist chick... so calling me a hippie hedonist is not really the insult I think you meant it to be. Peace out brother.

I said "no" because repent usually implies a religious action of saying you're sorry to god. There is no god, so just learn from your past mistakes and get on with your life making better choices in the future. But that can wait until we're done partying. (I'm invited too, right?)

And about that bad karma you emit around here.... chill out and join the party.

(Edited by katdaddy on 3/17, 8:24am)

Post 34

Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 9:33am

Thanks for those words, Luther. The Ayn Rand Meetup idea sounds excellent. The only problem is that I live in mid Wales, in the UK, and finding an objectivist around here is like finding a vegan donut in a butchers shop. Of course, I'm new to this so I could be very wrong. (It's happened before, right?) If so, I'd be very enthusiastic about setting up a group.

Post 35

Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 2:57pm

Ian, to hijack the words of the movie Field of Dreams, "If you build it, they will come."

Visit http://aynrand.meetup.com and create a group near you. I know of only one other Ayn Rand Meetup in the UK -- in London at http://aynrand.meetup.com/50/ -- and, lo and behold, they need an Organizer! How far is that from you? Whether you can organize the existing one or create one near you, be sure to do so.

Note that Meetup offers thousands of topics, including Atheists, so browse http://www.meetup.com to find topics of interest to you. Note that the London Atheists Meetup at http://atheists.meetup.com/213/ has 94 members!

I see you have already joined SOLO UK as well. Good for you!

Post 36

Friday, March 18, 2005 - 11:15am

Barbara: In addition to correcting the character flaws or mistakes that led to wrong actions, one may also be morally on the hook to make amends to others.

The root virtues involved here are pride and justice. A prideful man will consider himself perfectible, he won't settle for staying as he is, he will constantly seek to improve himself. A just man will take responsibility for his past actions and seek to make amends where he ought to. This is what a rational conception of repentance boils down to.

I don't understand the crazy/giddy thing. Seems like it's not just a short-term, it's the tone of Solo to make light of almost anything. This is a serious issue, and all I've seen from everyone here is bad philosophic analysis combined with jokes, and mudslinging at the only guy who actually answered the question correctly.

Post 37

Friday, March 18, 2005 - 11:23am

Katdaddy: I'm talking to most of the people who posted. Yours was just the only one that gave a clear answer of "no". That you constantly emphasize getting on with life while ignoring that you might need to make some kind of amends or (Buddha forbid) feel guilt is why I thought of hippies. But since you admit to being one, if the shoe fits...

Regarding my "karma", yeah, I know how to party, and I could blend in with the rest of you if I wanted, but I'd rather that Solo take on a more serious posture about ideas so I think I'll just stay the way I am. Thanks for the advice anyway.

Post 38

Friday, March 18, 2005 - 11:25am

Michael:

That last quote sounded to me like pretentious "I'm so much better than this" sanctimonious pontificating and just plain name calling.

Well we wouldn't want anyone to think themselves better than anyone else, now would we? Especially in an Objectivist forum.

Post 39

Friday, March 18, 2005 - 12:57pm