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Post 80

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 8:11amSanction this postReply
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Aaron,
Can you educate me here:
"China lacks the military capability to invade Taiwan now"

That strikes me as implausible, but have no figures.


Post 81

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 8:44amSanction this postReply
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Jeff-

The info I read about it was a few articles from last July (when there was briefly an unsubstantiated scare that US was moving 7 carrier task forces to western Pacific for a reason more than large scale war games). I'd have to search later for links again. From what I remember, conventional forces are advantage to China, but surprisingly not highly unbalanced. The real key was China didn't have nearly the transport capacity to pull off a good amphibious invasion. I don't think anyone doubts if China wanted to build up for 5-10 years that they could pull it off, just not yet.

Post 82

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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Jeff, Aaron,

Aaron’s #81 sounds about like what I understand, as well. One must be careful when ones hears, “The third largest standing army in the world.” Quality and projectibility matter more than size. China has zero to very little ability to project force outside its borders, even today. That’s changing fast, but “very little” still applies at the moment.

China’s buildup right now is mostly in the field of missiles pointed at Taiwan. Even this is not much of an ability to project, but only a destructive capacity aimed at breaking Taiwanese psychological will to continue resisting, not so much a capacity to invade and succeed.

We’ve (there’s that “we” again) been arming the Taiwanese with some pretty good stuff. It’s my understanding that today and for several years to come, even if we stopped arming the Taiwanese, a Chinese invasion would get nowhere.

The Chinese plan is to stop us and Europe and Israel from selling the good stuff to Taiwan (in exchange for them eliminating the North Korean problem of ours) so that they can reach the day where invasion would succeed, at which point they will coerce Taiwan into unification.

(Edit: And then everything will be fine because the Chinese are reasonable, their longing to be "reunited" with their brethren only fair, and it will be peace for all from then on—according to the sell-out-Taiwan firsters.)

Jon
(Edited by Jon Letendre
on 5/13, 9:50am)


Post 83

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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The continuing fight for more freedom should be the ideal, not fighting each other over anarchism vrs. severely delimited government. The anarchists can't get there from here, they have to go through the latter first. Then they will find in the context of much greater freedom that few will still be listening to us anyway as the statists counterattack over the field of our gluttonous debauchery and spiritual debasement.:-)

--Brant


Post 84

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 10:30amSanction this postReply
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I'm glad Bill Perry is in this discussion because, in addition to his extensive reading, he's also seen the justice system from inside since that was his profession for many years. Concrete knowledge and experience is not too terrible an idea in a theoretical discussion :-).

[Bill, #61] "No one has ever made a convincing argument that you can fund a limited government with the components of national defense, police, and the courts without initiating force. That includes Rand's essay "Government Financing in a Free Society." ...someone must explain how such a society can be funded. If anyone is able to point me to an argument in the literature or make an argument that I haven't heard--let me know."

I came up with a solution about twenty years ago.

I didn't try to publish it because the periodicals at the time seemed unappetizing or unwelcoming. But maybe this website is the place, given the engaged, immediate, intelligent feedback (unlike a magazine). And if there are flaws, I'm sure someone will point them out. I'll try to resurrect my thinking and perhaps see if it's a stand-alone article Linz would like to post and I would like to write.

Phil

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Post 85

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 10:47amSanction this postReply
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Let me summarize my view of the underlying issue of this debate.

Back on post #61, my good friend Bill Perry wrote:

I'm not sure that it is important for me to resolve this. If I ever get to decide between an anarchist system, and a real limited government system I'll be a happy man. But sometimes it is fun to debate it.


Several others have made the same point -- that the debate is relatively minor, even esoteric, having few "real world" implications in the here and now...a purely "academic" feud whose resolution we can suspend until some remote point in the future -- if ever.

I strongly disagree.

Whether you believe that government as such is legitimate, or not, will profoundly affect your approach to and conclusions about a host of issues, such as:

Intellectual property: Are patents and copyrights vital protections of individual property rights? Or are they immoral state-granted monopolies?

National defense: Should we mount a strong military defense against threats from hostile foreign nation-states? Or is it the existence of our nation-state that provokes others to aggression against it?

Addressing Islamist terrorism: Should our government aggressively pursue and attempt to neutralize foreign-based Islamic groups that employ terrorism? How, and to what extent? Or are these groups threatening us with terrorism precisely because of U. S. government policy?

Criminal justice and law: Do we fight crime with a policy of proportionate retribution, including imprisonment? Or do we adopt the liberal (utilitarian) approach to punishment: treating crimes as if they were economic or insurance policy matters, eschewing prisons and punitivity, and seeking only financial restitution for the victim, to whatever extent feasible? Do we have a final arbiter to interpret and enforce laws, contracts, etc.? Or do we allow any individual the "right" to secede or opt out of any ruling, tribunal, etc., that he doesn't like?

Border control: Do we try to bar foreign criminals, terrorists and welfare-state moochers from flooding our nation, by enforcing immigration laws? Or do we erase national borders, hence obliterating the idea of "illegal immigration," thereby letting anyone and everyone go wherever they please?

Child sexual exploitation: Do we enforce "age of consent" laws? Or do we treat them as artificial and unjustifiable constraints on the alleged "natural sexuality" between children and adults?


I don't want to argue here about the merits of any of those issues (or many others I could name). I only want to point out that whether one approaches such issues as an anarchist, or as an advocate of a constitutionally limited government, will lead one to diametrically opposite conclusions about what the correct "libertarian" position should be in each case.

Thus the belief that "we can all proceed toward greater freedom, then worry about anarchism vs. government later," is naive. The fact is that "freedom" means something very different to the two camps. As a result, on a host of "real world" issues, we are not heading toward the same or even similar destinations. Not even close.

So the conflict between the two camps is not just "theoretical," something that we can defer until some remote time in the future. No, the conflict is over what we mean by "freedom" and its implications in the here and now.

I, for one, see that conflict as logically irreconcilable, and I see its respective partisans as ideological adversaries, not allies. I also see a "libertarian movement" that tries to accomodate both as an incoherent and unstable
mess, which soon and inevitably will disintegrate into its warring constituencies.

Post 86

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:02amSanction this postReply
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Quoth Jon Letendre:

"Aaron’s #81 sounds about like what I understand, as well. One must be careful when ones hears, 'The third largest standing army in the world.' Quality and projectibility matter more than size. China has zero to very little ability to project force outside its borders, even today. That's changing fast, but 'very little' still applies at the moment."

Complete agreement here. China has manpower. What it doesn't have is a blue water navy adequate in size and combat power to move, and protect the movement of, that manpower across the strait (or sufficient air/air defense power to protect that manpower in a major land-based offensive -- against India, for example, or into Siberia).

They are, however, working on it.

Tom Knapp

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Post 87

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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Quoth Brant Gaede:

"The continuing fight for more freedom should be the ideal, not fighting each other over anarchism vrs. severely delimited government. The anarchists can't get there from here, they have to go through the latter first."

There's merit to the statement that anarchist/minarchists might and should work together on certain issues and toward certain goals.

On the other hand, that only goes so far (see Mr. Bidinotto's post after yours), and it's not necessarily true that we "have to go through the latter first."

As a matter of fact, I consider it much more likely that an anarchist society could come into existence from an environment of no state than through transitions into smaller and smaller levels of state power.

There are various cataclysmic scenarios which might bring about a situation where various levels of government as personified by the state are simply not equipped to effectively govern for some time -- and not welcome to do so, at least in some places, after they recover.

Of course, there are some major problems with cataclysmic scenarios, the most obvious being that they're, well, cataclysmic.

Tom Knapp

Post 88

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:43amSanction this postReply
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I disagree with my good friend Robert Bidinotto's strong disagreement with me in post 85.  While current advocates of limited government often fall on one side of the issues that he mentions, and current advocates of anarcho-capitalism fall on the other, none of those positions is a necessary concommitant of the respective philsosophical postions about government.  I have a wider variety of friends who are anarcho-capitalists than most people.  I've found professed anarchists advocating each of the positions (except as to patent and copyright) that Robert would ascribe to the limited government folk.

Robert's complaint is unfortunately an overgeneralization.  That is probably because he mostly encounters Rothbardians, rather than the full spectrum of anarchists.  I even have a friend who is an anarcho-syndicalist, Popperian converted to Orthodox Judaism.  (He is considering Orthodox Judaism as a testable hypothesis!)

Each of the issues Robert raises should be discussed outside the framework of this debate--each on its merits.

Bill


Post 89

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:51amSanction this postReply
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Bill, how DARE you disagree with my disagreement? Why must you be so...so...disagreeable?
 
I guess we'll have to, uh, agree to disagree.

Or would such agreement constitute some kind of a moral sanction of someone with whom you disagree?

I'm confused now.... 

;^)


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Post 90

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Excellent post #85.  I was considering writing an article on the topic before your post.  I agree with the major premise, that the difference between anarchism and minarchism is relatively minor.  Someone, I think Aaron, on a different thread said one wants to get rid of 100% and the other wants to get rid of 98%.  That's only a 2% difference, isn't it (let's just pretend these numbers are fair)?  That way of putting it is misleading, as Robert's post points out.

The issue is not just the 2% difference, but also the reasons for the 2% difference.  The reasons people come to these conclusions will also change other results as well.  Let me provide a couple examples.

First, there's a point Robert made in a previous article.  Anarchists often accept the non-initiation of force principle to be a context-free rule, that you must obey regardless of it's consequences to your life.  That has obvious effects, including essentially arguing against any war, including defensive wars, that may result in killing innocent civilians. 

And a problem with viewing anything as a simple rule is that it make it difficult or impossible to weigh the costs of breaking it.  A moral rule has the same effect as an intrinsic value, which is a value that has no purpose or use.  The problem is, if it doesn't achieve anything, you can't weigh the costs of violating it.  The point is that people who accept NIOF as a rule that must be obeyed, regardless of context, are unable to see different degrees of evil.  So you get ridiculous statements like the US is just as bad as North Korea.  The real consequence is that those who accept it can't take gradual steps towards freedom.  Any violation of rights is as evil as any other.  Someone on SOLO was arguing that China is more free than the US because they don't enforce safety belts rules there.

Part of the context dropped when accepting NIOF as a rule is the idea of moral responsibility.  Objectivists assert the blame for the deaths of innocent civilians in a war goes to the rights-violator who made the war necessary.  Anarchists tend to argue that it doesn't, that NIOF is NIOF, and there can't be a reason to violate it.

Anarchists sometimes believe that the only person who can use retaliatory force is the victim of the initiation of force.  This helps them argue that the state can't legitimately involve itself in the affairs of others.  The result is that a government can't come to the defense of allies or innocent victims.

Anarchists believe in free will for the US, but determinism for any despot.  The dictators and terrorists only react to the US, they never act on their own.  The US is the only moral agent (not moral as in good...cause it's evil, right...but moral in that it can be judged morally), and thus the root of all evil in the world.

Anarchists can't logically distinguish between legitimate functions of government and illegitimate functions of government, so they can't convincingly argue that the government should be focusing on the former.  They can only hurl attacks at the government.

Despite common sense, anarchists think that foreign nations are sovereign and can do whatever they want to their own citizens, and that another country involving itself is "imperialistic" and "aggressive", "initiating force".

A focus on not violating NIOF can leave you ignoring life as the standard of morality, or the need to defend yourself against force.  If not violating NIOF is the goal, pacifism is a possibility.

Anarchists focus on the rights that are violated, instead of the rights that are protected, always making it seem like we live in an absolute hell hole.  Malevolent view of life follows.

And the list can go on and on.  I realize that people can argue that these aren't all necessarily the case.  The fact that they're so frequent tells us something, though.  Whatever your reasons for being an anarchist, it will effect how you view the actions of the government and what kind of trade-offs you're willing to make in the process or reducing government.  You can't just isolate the conclusions in one area and say "only a 2% difference".  Whatever your reasons for accepting your political positions, they must have other effects on your thinking and actions.  So despite what may seem like minor theoretical differences, there are good reasons why the practical differences are usually night and day apart.


Post 91

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 2:59pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, re your posr #85: It doesn't matter as far as libertarianism is concerned whether you are an anarchist or not for you are still welcome to be a libertarian because libertarianism is only a conglomeration of political/economic ideas, not a philosophy as such. That's the real problem.

--Brant


Post 92

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 4:10pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

And a problem with viewing anything as a simple rule is that it make it difficult or impossible to weigh the costs of breaking it.  A moral rule has the same effect as an intrinsic value, which is a value that has no purpose or use.  The problem is, if it doesn't achieve anything, you can't weigh the costs of violating it.  The point is that people who accept NIOF as a rule that must be obeyed, regardless of context, are unable to see different degrees of evil.
This so clearly states the issue. Thank you!

Ethan 


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Post 93

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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"The point is that people who accept NIOF as a rule that must be obeyed, regardless of context, are unable to see different degrees of evil."

Gee, who was it who said, "The lesser of two evils. . . is evil"?

Sheesh!

JR


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Post 94

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 5:40pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

What a clearly stated, inspiring post.
Anarchists focus on the rights that are violated, instead of the rights that are protected, always making it seem like we live in an absolute hell hole. 
Just this attitude alone has been one of the things I have so strongly argued against.

I know another reality. Over thirty years of it (and most of them good, in fact).

We do not live in a hell hole over here. Period.

That is simply no historical accident. With all the bad that is in our system, it is precisely the good that has allowed this wealth to be created and shared by so many.

I am normally accused or questioned about equating wealth with liberty. I rarely answer because I see this so clearly, and I get exasperated. 

I have lived in a country the size of the USA where USA kind of liberty is just now taking hold. They bitch down there now, but things really are getting better. A real middle class is forming, instead of the temporary artificial one based on borrowed foreign money that was created in the 60's.

Wealth will always be available to those in power, irrespective of what kind of government it is. Wealth for the general population might even be possible for small places under varying types. But for a country the size of the USA (ot Brazil - or Russia - or China - or India - or... it keeps on going), if there was NO RESPECT AT ALL for property rights in the USA, for example, nobody would have the property they have around here - as opposed to those other countries.

Well when I look at the living conditions of most Americans I see, and then compare that to Brazilians, I start to wonder about why that is so. And I invite anybody to go and look with their own eyes.

I would say that what the USA government does well, it does extremely well - and often even in spite of itself. And not that the American people are some kind of master race who inherently do things better than the rest of the world and can carry a bloody dictatorship on their backs while creating one of the largest accumulations of man-created wealth this world has ever seen.

It is our system. And it works in other places with other people too.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 5/13, 5:46pm)


Post 95

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 5:58pmSanction this postReply
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Jon and Aaron,
We're kind of diverting the thread (probably ok, the current topic is becoming tiresome).
But I have a couple of follow up questions, derived from common sense ... not in-depth knowledge of mainland China's military capabiities.

If China couldn't in say, a couple of hours or so, totally take over Taiwan (yes, I'm exaggerating):

1. Why do 'we' get excited about helping Taiwan.  You make it sound like they could do the job perfectly well themselves -- for the next 5-10 years.  Is the US govt conning the American people, for some nefarious purpose, into spending money and think time on a non-problem?

2. If China can't project effective force outside their borders, why they were so troublesome in Korea and (to an extent) Vietnam?

3. Given the sheer numerical differences (which are obviously huge) how tough could it be?  I mean, christ, couldn't they freakin' row across?

(Edited by Jeff Perren on 5/13, 6:10pm)


Post 96

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 6:46pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

You ask: “Why do 'we' get excited about helping Taiwan. You make it sound like they could do the job perfectly well themselves.”

They can, but only because we have been arming them with highly effective stuff. If we hadn’t been, the current dynamic would be different; China would be capable of succeeding.

They can’t just row across because we’ve armed the Taiwanese so well. Each boat would be picked off like cigarette butts in a urinal.

Jon

Post 97

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,
We seem to be doing more than simply selling them stuff (and, perhaps, training them to use it).

We send, or threaten to send, aircraft carriers to the strait and make lots of big noises about possibly sending in the Marines if the Chicoms get too uppity.  That sure makes it sound like we don't believe the Taiwanese have everything they need to stave off an invasion.
(I'll bet the Taiwanese are a good deal less confident than you, considering the results of their last election.)


Post 98

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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Quoth Jeff:

"But I have a couple of follow up questions"

I'd like to address those questions, but keep in mind that my own estimate of Chinese and Taiwanese military effectiveness may differ significantly from Jon's.

"1. Why do 'we' get excited about helping Taiwan. You make it sound like they could do the job perfectly well themselves -- for the next 5-10 years. Is the US govt conning the American people, for some nefarious purpose, into spending money and think time on a non-problem?"

In a force-on-force, conventional land war, it's simply no contest. China has a huge force of reasonably well-trained infantry soldiers. There's no way Taiwan could go toe-to-toe with them on the ground.

What Taiwan has going for it are two things:

1) The strait; and

2) The fact that the US has more or less guaranteed the security of the strait on Taiwan's behalf until Taiwan is able to project sufficient force over the strait that said guarantee is no longer needed. More on that below.

2. If China can't project effective force outside their borders, why they were so troublesome in Korea and (to an extent) Vietnam?

In a word, asymmetry.

The US had a technological/armaments edge on China even 50 years ago, but Korea was primarily an infantry/artillery war. Air played a role, but not the role that it would today -- the state of aircraft technology, the climate/weather/terrain, etc. prevented the US from fully exploiting that edge -- so Korea was basically a standup infantry/artillery fight. The US had better weapons, but the Chinese had a lot more men, and sheer mass does count for something in that kind of fight.

Vietnam? My impression has always been that China played a very limited role there versus the US -- the Soviets were the big sponsors of Hanoi.

"3. Given the sheer numerical differences (which are obviously huge) how tough could it be? I mean, christ, couldn't they freakin' row across?"

In a word, no. In a toe-to-toe ground infantry battle, the Chinese Army would have sheer preponderance of weight going for it. But trying to get across the strait is another story entirely. US (or Taiwanese, if we're selling them that stuff) Aegis-class ships could blow boats out of the water faster than the Chinese could get them into the water. The ChiComs simply would not get a chance to play their strong suit.

Tom Knapp

Post 99

Friday, May 13, 2005 - 10:07pmSanction this postReply
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The entire issue of Taiwan is something that the US is completely mis-handling.  The fact is, China and Taiwan are not black and white contrasts, free vs communist, but a lot closer to "slightly more free" vs. "slightly less free."  They both have enough in common that they will eventually resolve their own differences.  All the US accomplishes by making threats is:

1)  Gives the US Navy a way to ask for more budget $ so as to counter the "Chinese Threat" - Never mind that with $$ billions $$ invested in US bonds, not to mention trade, the Chinese would have to lop off a whole leg to cure a hangnail...

2)  Gives the Chicom militarists more $ for their military to counter the US threat, and good rhetoric to keep the common people in line.  Remember, if our roles were reversed, this would be like the Chinese interfering with a Cuba that was run by the remnents of the confederates and Jefferson Davis.

... meanwhile Kim stays put because we won't offer the Chinese something to take care of his sorry ass - want good vs evil?  Look there!  China is paradise in comparison to that hell-hole.

(Edited by Kurt Eichert on 5/13, 10:09pm)


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