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Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 12:23pmSanction this postReply
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I was reading through some older articles in the archives and came across an essay by Adam Reed called “Silence”.  The title points to the fact that TOC is silent on many subjects for which ARI has a ready answer. Here is an example of one of those ready answers Reed defends. It concerns abortion.

 

"Indeed, it is only a matter of time before a woman's right to choose an abortion sinks under this pragmatist/collectivist tide, as the Court permits the gradual demise of Roe v. Wade - the last surviving example of proper judicial review.”

 

What am I missing here? How can Roe V Wade be “the last surviving example of proper judicial review”?  There was no review process here, no law to review; the measure did not originate in the legislature.


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Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 12:32pmSanction this postReply
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Laws against abortion originated in state legislatures.  The Supreme Court gave these laws a "proper judicial review" and found them Constitutionally wanting, so it invalidated them.

Perhaps you mean something different by the term.


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Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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This situation brings to mind a quote from Twain: “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

 

Nevertheless, I will say that Roe v. Wade isn’t void of judicial review. The justices presiding over that case reviewed US legal history in some depth - and even went beyond US law somewhat - and they tried to be careful in finding what liberties of a woman (and a fetus) should be constitutionally protected. But I don’t know why ARI thinks Roe is the “last surviving example of proper judicial review.” I invite others here to enlighten us in regard to that.

 

Jordan


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Post 3

Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 7:40pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Not all of us are as brilliant and knowledgable as you seem to be. 

But, do the community a favor, the next time you post, lose the invictive.


Post 4

Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 7:56pmSanction this postReply
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Luther,

Some excerpts from Rehnquist's dissent:

Even if there were a plaintiff in this case capable of litigating the issue which the Court decides, I would reach a conclusion opposite to that reached by the Court. I have difficulty in concluding, as the Court does, that the right of "privacy" is involved in this case. Texas, by the statute here challenged, bars the performance of a medical abortion by a licensed physician on a plaintiff such as Roe. A transaction resulting in an operation such as this is not "private" in the ordinary usage of that word. Nor is the "privacy" that the Court finds here even a distant relative of the freedom from searches and seizures protected by the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, which the Court has referred to as embodying a right to privacy. Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967). . .

I agree with the statement of MR. JUSTICE STEWART in his concurring opinion that the "liberty," against deprivation of which without due process the Fourteenth Amendment protects, embraces more than the rights found in the Bill of Rights. But that liberty is not guaranteed absolutely against deprivation, only against deprivation without due process of law. The test traditionally applied in the area of social and economic legislation is whether or not a law such as that challenged has a rational relation to a valid state objective. Williamson v. Lee Optical Co., 348 U.S. 483, 491 (1955). The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment undoubtedly does place a limit, albeit a broad one, on legislative power to enact laws such as this. If the Texas statute were to prohibit an abortion even where the mother's life is in jeopardy, I have little doubt that such a statute would lack a rational relation to a valid state objective under the test stated in Williamson, supra. But the Court's sweeping invalidation of any restrictions on abortion during the first trimester is impossible to justify under that standard, and the conscious weighing of competing factors that the Court's opinion apparently substitutes for the established test is far more appropriate to a legislative judgment than to a judicial one. . .

But the Court adds a new wrinkle to this test by transposing it from the legal considerations associated with the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to this case arising under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Unless I misapprehend the consequences of this transplanting of the "compelling state interest test," the Court's opinion will accomplish the seemingly impossible feat of leaving this area of the law more confused than it found it. . .

The fact that a majority of the States reflecting, after all, the majority sentiment in those States, have had restrictions on abortions for at least a century is a strong indication, it seems to me, that the asserted right to an abortion is not "so rooted in the traditions and conscience of our people as to be ranked as fundamental," Snyder v. Massachusetts, 291 U.S. 97, 105 (1934). Even today, when society's views on abortion are changing, the very existence of the debate is evidence that the "right" to an abortion is not so universally accepted as the appellant would have us believe.

To reach its result, the Court necessarily has had to find within the scope of the Fourteenth Amendment a right that was apparently completely unknown to the drafters of the Amendment. As early as 1821, the first state law dealing directly with abortion was enacted by the Connecticut Legislature. Conn. Stat., Tit. 20, §§ 14, 16. By the time of the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868, there were at least 36 laws enacted by state or territorial legislatures limiting abortion. 1 While many States have amended or updated their laws, 21 of the laws on the books in 1868 remain in effect today. 2 Indeed, the Texas statute struck down today was, as the majority notes, first enacted in 1857 and "has remained substantially unchanged to the present time." Ante, at 119.

There apparently was no question concerning the validity of this provision or of any of the other state statutes when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted. The only conclusion possible from this history is that the drafters did not intend to have the Fourteenth Amendment withdraw from the States the power to legislate with respect to this matter. . .

Even if one were to agree that the case that the Court decides were here, and that the enunciation of the substantive constitutional law in the Court's opinion were proper, the actual disposition of the case by the Court is still difficult to justify. The Texas statute is struck down in toto, even though the Court apparently concedes that at later periods of pregnancy Texas might impose these selfsame statutory limitations on abortion. My understanding of past practice is that a statute found to be invalid as applied to a particular plaintiff, but not unconstitutional as a whole, is not simply "struck down" but is, instead, declared unconstitutional as applied to the fact situation before the Court. Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356 (1886); Street v. New York, 394 U.S. 576 (1969).
For all of the foregoing reasons, I respectfully dissent.

 

(Edited by Robert Davison on 7/14, 8:00pm)


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Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 8:57pmSanction this postReply
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The dissent does not mention the Ninth Amendment, which creates a general presumption of liberty against the state. You can hear the parchment ripping in that one...

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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 6:00amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

When has that been of any concern to the Supreme Court?  They ignore it consistently, why should this be an exception.  If the Federal legislature was too cowardly to make law in the case of abortion, the issue should have been left to the various States.


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Post 7

Friday, July 15, 2005 - 6:43amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

 

I intended the Twain quote to refer to TOC and ARI, TOC being the one keeping its mouth closed, and ARI being the one to open its. ARI drew a pretty hefty and unsupported conclusion w/r/t judicial review. Putting such a conclusion out there seems pretty foolish to me. Hence, I found the quote appropriate. But I meant it more in good humor than invective, so if my use of it came off as denunciatory or abusive, I apologize.

 

However, this from you --  

Not all of us are as brilliant and knowledgable as you seem to be. 

is uncalled for.

 

Jordan


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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 7:01amSanction this postReply
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But Jordan, it's true.    Take my case, for example.     heehee.      Sharon


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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 8:51amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Clearly I misunderstood.  Thank you.

I don't think my sarcasm was unwarranted or excessive in response to what I believed to be an ad hominem attack, but now that the misunderstanding is cleared up, I apologize as well.


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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for that, Robert.

Jordan


Post 11

Friday, July 15, 2005 - 3:10pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D.:

You write: "If the Federal legislature was too cowardly to make law in the case of abortion, the issue should have been left to the various States." Do you have any evidence for your apparent belief that State-level legislators are less cowardly than Federal ones?

Post 12

Friday, July 15, 2005 - 5:22pmSanction this postReply
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I think his point is that it automatically falls to them absent any federal statute. And I agree with most of what he said. And there is no right to privacy in the Constitution, the amendments we have are broad enough to cover it. There is no prenumba and no reason to have one. A friend of mine once said "the court is pulling crap out of its ass making decisions like this, and what should they follow, the Constitution or crap they pulled out of their ass?"

Not you Mr. Reed but a few others on topics tend to confuse what is Constitutional and what is right, they obviously aren't the same (but close). I seen some people kind of switch back and forth and it doesn't help the debate.

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Friday, July 15, 2005 - 7:37pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

Do you have any evidence for your apparent belief that State-level legislators are less cowardly than Federal ones?
It's as plain as the nose on your face.  State laws were struck down by the decision.  Where any Federal laws stuck down?

As early as 1821, the first state law dealing directly with abortion was enacted by the Connecticut Legislature. Conn. Stat., Tit. 20, §§ 14, 16.

 


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Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 3:36amSanction this postReply
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This decision implemented the 14th Amendment with respect to rights guaranteed by the 9th. State legislation was overridden precisely because state legislators were too cowardly to do it themselves. The laws you cite did not defend but rather violated individual rights.

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Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 7:26amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

To reach its result, the Court necessarily has had to find within the scope of the Fourteenth Amendment a right that was apparently completely unknown to the drafters of the Amendment. As early as 1821, the first state law dealing directly with abortion was enacted by the Connecticut Legislature. Conn. Stat., Tit. 20, §§ 14, 16. By the time of the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868, there were at least 36 laws enacted by state or territorial legislatures limiting abortion. 1 While many States have amended or updated their laws, 21 of the laws on the books in 1868 remain in effect today. 2 Indeed, the Texas statute struck down today was, as the majority notes, first enacted in 1857 and "has remained substantially unchanged to the present time." Ante, at 119.

There apparently was no question concerning the validity of this provision or of any of the other state statutes when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted. The only conclusion possible from this history is that the drafters did not intend to have the Fourteenth Amendment withdraw from the States the power to legislate with respect to this matter. . .



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Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 7:59amSanction this postReply
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Robert, do you support a woman's natural right to have an abortion or not?  I have trouble understanding all this agitation.  I would not want to wait to persuade "the majority" of minds of the voters to change laws at the state level on this issue.  I am happy that the Supreme Court ruled as it did.

The harsh reality is that not all laws on the books pass muster with the Constitution no matter when or where or how they might have been written.  Unfortunately, it sometimes takes a long, tedious process of litigation to change or to invalidate these laws.

I think Adam is right in his basic argument.  From

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html#amendments

come these words of the amendments, the most relevant of which I have highlighted with italics typeface:

In my view, the Supreme Court justly ruled in a way that dismissed the legal status of a fetus as a person, defended the right of a woman to her own body, and kept the hands of the state out of her private life.  They may have not made such a rigorous argument, but the end result was just.


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Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 6:34pmSanction this postReply
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RD,

The Constitution was written by men of the Enlightenment, who knew that human knowledge increases and becomes more perfect with experience. The idea that knowledge obtained from experience after the writing down of a provision, somehow ought to be ignored in enforcing that provision, would have been identified by any man of the Enlightenment, including the authors of the Constitution, as ridiculous claptrap.

Post 18

Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 8:50amSanction this postReply
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Luther,

I believe in the right to abortion up to a point.  I consider it evil to blank out to the fact that at some point the 'foetus' is a human being who also has rights.  Somewhere in the 2nd trimester I should imagine,  or certainly the third. 

Surely you do not not believe that the right to abortion gives a woman the right to dawdle and delay making a decision until the moment when birth would naturally occur, and then kill the 'foetus'?


Post 19

Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 8:51amSanction this postReply
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Sorry Adam your point is unclear.
(Edited by Robert Davison on 7/17, 8:52am)


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