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Friday, August 19, 2005 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry if this a duplicate.

On another forum,the question of who looks after the children has arrisen.
I would like to hear some comments if possible.
Here is a quote....

I know the Liable Parent scheme is a mess to deal with but the main problem is that men simply don't see why they should pay the upkeep on their own child.

The problem is - it aint the childs fault. And if we leave mother and child to fend for themselves, we just create future problems.

Thanks.


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Friday, August 19, 2005 - 6:29pmSanction this postReply
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Both parents pay. With money and/or with actual care.

Post 2

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 8:50pmSanction this postReply
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As a general question, and in the eyes of "dah Lah," if the DNA fits, you must submit.

One can't be droppin' their load in any ol' female lest he be submittin' for 20 years. Civilized cultures tend to look down on dudes that don't take care of what they create in the first place.

However, context is often (read: "always") ignored in family issues, and "dah lah" just makes a bigger mess of things. Compulsory support is nothing more than a legislative morality.  Funny how the court never keeps an accounting of visitation, just "dah munny."

 And that sucks for so many reasons you'd need a whole new forum to discuss them.   

Teresa


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Post 3

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 9:32pmSanction this postReply
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Boo hoo, the poor hard working mother cannot afford to pay for the child she chose to keep... which surely means the male genetic parent should be a slave for 20 years.

Ignore me, because I'm not a woman, and I don't know what the pressures are like when going through pregnancy, nor do I know how it would feel to prevent the developing human inside me from living any longer.

Plus, it would just be plain horrible to let the child decay from lack of financial support. Yes, we must save the unwanted infants and children at any cost, especially the cost of making dead beat dads slaves!

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Friday, August 19, 2005 - 8:42pmSanction this postReply
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The problem is - it ain't the child's fault. And if we leave mother and child to fend for themselves, we just create future problems.
The point was,where irresponsible parent don't do the right thing and pay,who pays then?
As above when we say it's up to them and they don't care, the children suffer,as do we with problem children on the streets.

I have been advocating that parents should pay,but the above point was made.



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Post 5

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 11:55pmSanction this postReply
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"The point was,where irresponsible parent don't do the right thing and pay,who pays then?"

No, I am not going to simply answer your question, which implicitly claims that "not paying is wrong". From what standard do you judge that a person is "irresponsible"? From what standard do you judge that not paying is equivalent to "not doing the right thing"? If not paying is wrong, then there is no debate. But that is what we are debating here, no?

To answer your question, nobody pays unless they want to-- unless you live in one of those social-welfare states, one of those pamper-the-criminal states (if the mother/child resorts to crime), or one of those men-are-slaves-of-child-bearing-women states.

There are plenty of people who want to pay, if the mother is unable to provide for the child. Why should the mother have priority in keeping the baby if she is incapable of financially supporting herself and the baby? Does she have some sort of claim of ownership on the baby (I'm thinking yes, but not after the baby's life comes into danger)?

What we discovered in the previous exploration of this debate was that there are two schools of thought. One side thinks that sexual activity includes a tacit agreement that both partners will take responsibility in raising the child. The other side thinks that sexual activity includes no agreement other than the agreement to have sexual activity.

I belong to the later group, and it appears that you belong to the former. Most laws, and most law enforcers belong to the former.

I think the most important thing is that the partners discuss their expectations, tacit agreements, and trust each other before doing something that could potentially throw their lives off course for the next 20 years.

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Friday, August 19, 2005 - 11:28pmSanction this postReply
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Belabouring the point,most on here would like to see less goverment interference with our lives,but in the case of these children,do we get the goverment to compulsory take our money to bring them up,or do we let them go on the streets.?

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Post 7

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 12:20amSanction this postReply
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"Do we get the goverment to compulsory take our money to bring them up,or do we let them go on the streets.?"

I prefer letting them go on the streets to forcing fully grown, developed, productive, ... adults to take care of them. But I doubt there would be many children on the streets, since there are plenty of people that want to raise them without coercion.

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Post 8

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 12:30amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for reply Dean.
Problem in this neck of the woods,people are addicted to nanny state.Take any group and in no time there will a suggestion that the goverment should fix it,whatever it is.
You have a point,re leaving them to the streets,I am sure there is a shortage of children up for adoption.


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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 5:43amSanction this postReply
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"Belabouring the point,most on here would like to see less goverment interference with our lives,but in the case of these children,do we get the goverment to compulsory take our money to bring them up,or do we let them go on the streets.?"

Brian, isn't it possible that some kids will turn out badly even when the other parent IS paying some form of support? Are you suggesting that children who do receive support never end up "on the streets," as you say?

It takes way more than money to bring kids up right, don't you think? Money alone is no guarantee of a good outcome or comfortable environment.

Teresa 


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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 5:52amSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

One can't be droppin' their load in any ol' female lest he be submittin' for 20 years.

Sounds like you had experience in this area ;-)

There was a recent statistic where it has been worked out through genetic profiling that many men in the UK and US have been forced to pay for Children by the state that were not their own. Up to 1:4 men may be duped by wives that secretly have had affairs.

However, the courts don't care whether the men paying actually dumped the load or not, when these men leave the marriage they are still forced to pay the upkeep of the child.

So, "who dumped the load?", does not even figure.

As Dean explains. It should be a case of, "who wants to take responsibility for the child voluntarily?"



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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 6:03amSanction this postReply
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Sounds like you had experience in this area ;-)

More than you know, Marcus, more than you know.... I'll tell you my ire is raised by mere mention of the subject.


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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
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Who pays? This is easy. Children of unwanting or incapable parents should be installed, by force, into Catholic homes.

Jon

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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 9:17amSanction this postReply
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Dean,

Your post 5 sums up the two positions well. I am more in the former group than latter. ‘So, we’re *just* having sex, right?’ is fine as far as it goes, but represents an evasion of reality when the man *really* thinks that nothing more can happen.

Only when coupled with a heavy dose of your last paragraph can I accept the latter position: “I think the most important thing is that the partners discuss their expectations, tacit agreements, and trust each other before doing something that could potentially throw their lives off course for the next 20 years.”

The danger in the former position, untempered by your above paragraph, is: “But all I did was fuck her!” without any attempt at knowing her, which may have uncovered emotional instability and a belief that a cuddly baby might finally make her happy.

For those of you men who really, really, don’t want someone out there calling them “Dad”, you have to take Dean’s last paragraph to heart. You’ll have to be very careful whom you sleep with. Imagine that!

Jon

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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 10:08amSanction this postReply
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Is the rich world aware of how four billion of the six billion live? If we were aware, we would want to help out, we'd want to get involved.
Bill Gates-

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Post 15

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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Dean Michael Gores is blazing a new trail in true liberty for us menfolks. He wrote:

"What we discovered in the previous exploration of this debate was that there are two schools of thought. One side thinks that sexual activity includes a tacit agreement that both partners will take responsibility in raising the child. The other side thinks that sexual activity includes no agreement other than the agreement to have sexual activity. I belong to the later group, and it appears that you belong to the former. Most laws, and most law enforcers belong to the former."

I like this line of reasoning a lot. Let me extend it a bit, and thereby extend our potential liberties into an area where we currently have none.

There are two schools of thought. One side thinks that driving an automobile or firing a handgun involves a tacit acknowledgement that one will take responsibility for any damage that one causes that is not in one's self-defense. The other side thinks that driving a car or firing a gun includes no acknowledgement other than that of the choice to drive a car or fire a gun. Now, I assume that while most law enforcers belong to the former, Mr. Gores, being a true libertarian, belongs to the latter group, and thus that he would support me (at least morally!) if, by driving my car or firing my gun, I were to cause Lindsay Perigo to become disabled and unable to provide for his own support. In other words, if my own chosen actions put Lindsay into a position of helplessness, Mr. Gores would argue that I am in no way responsible for taking care of Lindsay until he is able once more to take care of himself. After all, I wasn't choosing to make a human being helpless. I was merely choosing to drive a car or fire a gun!

If this line of argument appeals to Mr. Gores, I invite him to collaborate with me on what could be a truly liberating book, Caused Helplessness for Dummies: New Freedom from Unwanted Responsibilities.

Roger Bissell


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Post 16

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 7:29amSanction this postReply
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I once rented a room to a divorced dad. His daughter would stay here on weekends as per his visitation agreement. He also would confiscate a portion of the WIC supplies from his ex to help feed his little girl. My kitchen was filled with boxed milk, cereal and cheeses from the state.

This man had a job that would make him $40,000 a year if he worked 40 hours a week like the rest of us. He barely managed 20. His daughter was a very bright 3 yr old. He ignored her or spoke to her like she was stupid and filled her with mysticism. He sat on my couch and ate government cheese while playing his playstation 2. Rent was almost never payed on time (I think he may still owe me money) but the straw that broke my humped back arrived when he told me he got some toilet paper for the house.
I was in total despair as I realized I was stuck in the bathroom with nothing but state issue TP to scratch my butt. It was the final insult to everything I believe.
I'm a Charmin man.

We all know what makes babies these days. Your right to sexual enjoyment does not excuse your responsibility to clean up your own mess. Slowing down statism slows down the production of state funded children. Sorry to be so tough but, I didn't ask anyone to "dump their load".


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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
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Roger Bissell,

Surely there is a difference between running a person down while driving/shooting a gun toward others, and in causing conception. Yes, I agree that the male is responsible for causing conception. But again, there are two schools of thought: Choosing to keep the baby implies responsibility vs causing conception implies responsibility.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 8/20, 4:52pm)


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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 1:16pmSanction this postReply
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I suppose the need to ask who pays, arose when someone thought,it seems unfair on the child,lets take some money fron those that have and give some to those that haven't,rather than have economic conditions where they can earn there own money.
Classic case here in NZ at the moment.With elections in a week or two,the goverment have decided to give tax breaks to families with children,so we without children subsidise those with,don't ask me why,but they will probably be voted in again.


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Post 19

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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Dean Michael Gores wrote: "Surely there is a difference between running a person down while driving/shooting a gun toward others, and in causing conception. Yes, I agree that the male is responsible for causing conception. But again, there are two schools of thought: Choosing to keep the baby implies responsibility vs causing conception implies responsibility."

Surely there is a difference between disabling a person with a car or gun and getting a woman pregnant. But that isn't what we were talking about. We were discussing who is responsible for supporting a helpless human being that has been brought into the world. Many Libertarians and too many Objectivists seem to think that holding the mother and father responsible for supporting the child is tantamount to slavery. (Some of them would no doubt also object on the same grounds to being forced to care for someone they had disabled with their auto or firearm.)

"Choosing to keep the baby" is a very complicated issue, especially when we are talking about an unmarried, uncommitted couple who just had sex with no expectation of pregnancy. But I think I can boil down the options fairly easily (bearing in mind that all of these options presume no contract or other expressed commitment).

(1) If both people decide they want to continue the pregnancy and bring a child into the world, then there is a point of no return (in my opinion), and that is the third trimester, at which point the fetus is as well developed as premature babies who survive and are recognized as having the same rights as full-term babies. Up to this point, one or both people may reconsider (see below). Past this point, neither may reconsider -- neither the woman in regard to carrying the fetus to full term, nor the man in regard to supporting the baby once its born. (And the mother always has the option of giving up the baby for adoption.)

(2) If the mother decides she no longer wants to carry the fetus prior to the third trimester, then she can rightfully get an abortion, since it's her body; if the father agrees, they share the cost (see below); if he disagrees, she bears the cost. If the father decides prior to the third trimester that he no longer wants to be financially responsible for the baby, then he can rightfully absolve himself of any responsibility, by offering to pay the cost of an abortion (and paying for it, if the mother agrees to the procedure)--or paying (if the mother does not agree to the procedure) the equivalent monetary of the abortion to the mother in lieu of any further financial responsibility.

(3) If both the mother and the father decide prior to the third trimester that they no longer want to bring a baby into the world, then they have the relatively minor matter of working out the financial arrangement for an abortion. I leave this as an exercise for the ambitious Student of Objectivism or Libertarianism. :-)

From the above, it may appear that I am a strange duck, indeed, a Liberal Democrat (U.S. lingo) in regard to the first two trimesters of pregnancy and a Conservative Republican in regard to the third trimester. But in truth, when I developed my views about 25 years ago, I did not think in these terms. I just thought in terms of what Libertarianism and Objectivism ought to hold on this matter.

Best to all,
Roger Bissell


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