About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Post 80

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 12:25amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I have no intention of leaving Solo, ever. Neither does Kat. She used a colloquial expression in a fit of anger (very justified fit of anger, by the way) and, in the context of so many leaving, this got interpreted as a preparation for a grandstand exit.

I would like to apologize to all the people here who may have misunderstood my "stepping over corpses" comment to mean I was leaving.  I had a hissy fit but I'm not going away.

Many hurtful remarks were directed at me, making me feel like I was in the crosshairs.  I am also bothered by the fact that malicious threads have been started for the sole purpose of attacking good people like Sarah and Linz.  Bad jokes and derisive terms like "womanish" are being posted like a big "No Girls Allowed" sign on the treehouse.  I know its always been a bit of a tough place here, and I personally love a good rant, but it makes me unhappy to see the escalating mean-spiritedness here in the once-sunlit community where I have made many wonderful friends and found my Michael. 

I believe in SOLO.  I believe in KASS.  I know the ugliness will pass.

Linz, I'm sorry.

Kat



Sanction: 19, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 19, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 19, No Sanction: 0
Post 81

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 4:41amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Kat—no apology called for. And better "ugliness" than blandness. But for the most part, it's not ugliness. It's a mixture of legitimate outrage, impatience, passionate valuing & the occasional excess on the part of people on fire for their convictions. This is not the end of the world; it is what will save the world.

The "gouging" thread exposed a surprising degree of ignorance of Ethics/Markets 101 in some surprising quarters. This was pointed out, sometimes furiously. Those under siege for unawareness of ethical & economic nostrums that most of us here would take for granted got upset. They thought they were being faulted for their desire to see the amelioration of the suffering of fellow-human beings. They responded to those who tried to enlighten them re Ethics/Markets 101 with charges of "callousness," "bloodthirstiness" & the like. And so, as these things tend to do when so stoked, the matter turned into an epic battle, spiced by personal rivalries, animosities, love affairs & Galt-knows-what. That's the way of it. In the process, an incipient divide between the limp & the erect that had already become apparent during the Culture of Therapy/Victimhood discussions became more pronounced. That's the way of it too. There is, as yet at least, no call for anyone to leave or be made to leave. There is vigorous disagreement that sometimes gets inappropriately personal. Big deal. Boo-hoo. We should revert to closing down dissent (ARI) or politely drinking tea with the little finger extended while making small-talk (TOC). Over my dead body!

In the "gouging" dispute, the anti-"gouging" side got well & truly thrashed. They should have the good grace to acknowledge that the thrashing was deserved. Rather than snarl like cornered rats at those who enlightened them, they should be grateful. Equally, those who did the enlightening should demonstrate their good faith by not rubbing salt into wounds inevitably inflicted. The newly-enlightened were not bad; they were merely mistaken or uninformed.

SOLO will never be PC. Terms like "womanish" will never be banned, unless it's to substitute a better term like " old womanish." SOLO is for people with big brains, big hearts, thick skins, hearty senses of humour ... and overpowering senses-of-life. Such people are always going to have fierce disagreements with each other. That, too, is the way of it. The current culture counsels counselling in the face of such rambunctiousness; SOLO, while boasting some eager in-house therapists, would encourage folk in the first instance to toughen up & grow up.

Occasionally, to be sure, there is real ugliness, exemplified by pomo-wankers of whom there are a couple on this very thread. Their vileness is self-evident & inconsequential. Their stench is so clearly alien to the spirit of SOLO that SOLO is not in the least bit tainted by it.

You have the spirit Kat, as does MSK, as does Andy Postema (to mention but one of the heroes of the"gouging" debate—Rick P is another). Yet you & MSK are at Andy's throat. Part of life's rich tapestry, no doubt ... but I'd urge you to sort it! Andy is not a troll or a Randroid; he's a star, just as you & MSK are stars. In different parts of the firmament, to be sure, but stars. So shine on, & belittle not another's gleam.


Linz









Post 82

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 5:24amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Gary,

Me:
"Womanish" does not mean "like a woman".
You:
Actually it does.
Actually it doesn't - as I have already explained.  You can either crack open a dictionary or wallow in ignorance.

Andy


Post 83

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 5:36amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Linz and Steven D,

Thanks for the kind words and the vote of confidence.

Michael K, Kat, Sarah,

I've said it a number of times in different ways, but I think it's worthwhile to say again.  I have no ill will towards any of you.  I do apologize for the jokey jabs I took at you occasionally, like the Comintern crack I made to Kat.  I assumed a familiarity with you that I did not have - and could not have considering the medium and the short time I've been here.  What I did might not have been so bad if I complied with the conventions of the internet to make my tone clear.  But I buck those rules, so I have to accept the consequences of doing so.  One such consequence was earning your enmity.  I do not want that.  So you have my apology.

Andy


Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 84

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andy,

  <TR>
wom·an·ish   Audio pronunciation of "womanish" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (wm-nsh)
adj.
  1. Of, characteristic of, or natural to a woman. See Synonyms at female.
  2. Resembling, imitative of, or suggestive of a woman.
and,

re·sem·ble   Audio pronunciation of "resembling" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (r-zmbl)
tr.v. re·sem·bled, re·sem·bling, re·sem·bles
To exhibit similarity or likeness to.


Damn, book crackin' is hard!


Your a smart guy, but come on, let this dog die!


gw


Post 85

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andy,

What the hell are you doing? You apologized and acted all classy and stuff.

Stop it!

There is no fun in that kind of behavior!

This little train is fueled by jokey jabs and enmity. And now your trying to ruin it!

You really do like breaking the rules don't you!


Stop it, I say!:-)


gw


Post 86

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 8:09amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andy,

Yes, I lampooned you. That's because you separated the discussion into two straw men and told me I had to choose between them. And the whole "manly" thing you did was, well, just funny. Hardly porn-wanking on my part.  More like bad theater. :)

I don't have to choose between those two worlds you offered me. You dismiss the entire personal development world, and self-esteem, in particular. Yet, you aren't very facile talking about it. Your answer seems to be something along the lines of you not caring to look at any of that material (effectively doing away with an entire body of work). You suggest that I have to choose between all the bad work in the field, and whatever constitutes you manly thing, or whatever you call it.

The fact is, I would have no interest in either, and thank heavens those aren't the only choices.

If you start doing work on self-esteem, just studying the interaction between efficacy and self-worth is a lifetime process. Studying each of those elements alone is a lifetime process. As is the work on emotional intelligence, many other things... You dismiss all of this, and tell me it is not available, only your two choices, and that is simply nonsense.

Best,
rde

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/08, 8:10am)


Post 87

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 8:11amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andy,

Apology accepted.

Michael & Kat


Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Post 88

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 8:50amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Linz,

Good post, but I take issue with one thing.

You wrote: In the "gouging" dispute, the anti-"gouging" side got well & truly thrashed.

So far it is not clear at all to me who was on the anti-gouging side. I do know that I saw some posters set up as Tooheys (myself included) and Mr. Toohey got firmly trounced. Who could argue with trouncing Toohey? The positions of the posters who did not do a Randroid kneejerk, however, were completely ignored. False dichotomies ran rampant and Objectivism Economics 101 got restated in a very loud voice as if that were something new.

So in that sense, I guess the "anti-gouging" side did get trounced. Except that such side did not exist at all on the thread, from what I read. There are still some issues on the table that simply were not discussed. Anyway, now that Objectivism Economics 101 has been so passionately reviewed and Mr. Toohey has been identified as a bad guy, I will go back to that thread when I have time and make a listing of those issues. One immediately comes to mind. Jody (then I) started with trying to define terms, but as usual, that was not considered very important to this "war." How on earth you or anybody expects to win a war of ideas without defining terms - and merely fight make-believe enemies - is beyond me, though.

I fully agree with not censoring terms like "womanish." Solo is not PC, except for Peter. However, do not expect everybody (especially the more feminist oriented) to like them. And do not expect any rational person to agree with any misguided attempts to rewrite the English language all of a sudden - especially with terms used in a heavy-handed manner. That is how anti-concepts are born and subtexts are sneaked into a culture. (Sort of like the term "price-gouging" as a matter of fact.)

I am glad that the personal issues are starting to be resolved. I hold no truck with those who would attack Kat on a personal level and I will always stand by her. She is a much higher value to me than any poster or argument ever could be. However, I bear no ill-will against anybody. Actually, I like most people.

Michael

Post 89

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 9:02amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I think the issue of price gouging was actually two issues. The real point, though, had to do with how some people automatically accuse businesses of gaffing even though the whole situation is right in front of them as far as why prices are moving up. That's the entitlement mentality, it's the "why is this happening to me" and "I feel that it isn't fair" mentality that very well might be the single most objectionable thing for Objectivists. When businessmen talk between themselves about gouging, it has a pretty consistent meaning, it usually involves someone doing something silly.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/08, 9:03am)


Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Post 90

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 9:28amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
MSK:

"...False dichotomies ran rampant and Objectivism Economics 101 got restated in a very loud voice as if that were something new...Anyway, now that Objectivism Economics 101 has been so passionately reviewed and Mr. Toohey has been identified as a bad guy, I will go back to that thread when I have time and make a listing of those issues. One immediately comes to mind. Jody (then I) started with trying to define terms, but as usual, that was not considered very important to this "war." How on earth you or anybody expects to win a war of ideas without defining terms - and merely fight make-believe enemies - is beyond me, though."

That is EXACTLY what was happening, which is why, once I understood that the unethical business practices that I took as price gouging was NOT the definition being used by such luminary jackasses as R. Pasotto (evidently, a real NEM, per Linz), I realized we were going nowhere, agreed with their limited definition, and got out of there. I am afraid that there are still WAY too many Objectivists who short circuit when you suggest that all transactions between people are not necessarily on the up and up, a fair trade, a completely voluntary transaction, etc. Bite your tongue before you say anything negative about business, despite MASSIVE evidence that people in companies do some very bad things sometimes. This is INDEED a knee jerk reaction, based on Objectivists having to defend the very idea of capitalism from socialists/communists for YEARS. They don't seem to be able to separate out the idea that they SYSTEM is correct, but that people within the system can be bad. So for most, they throw your goodness-baby out with the bathwater of capitalist-haters, and you're either uneducated, mis-informed, or a Saddamite pomo wanker limp dick old woman. Nice.

Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Post 91

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

“[...] a Saddamite pomo wanker limp dick old woman.”

…who further thinks that lying, cheating used car salesmen must be treated with the utmost integrity and fairness, else we will wake up one morning and find we’ve made our world into a Russia-like place.

Post 92

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 9:48amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jon:

"...into a Russia-like place."

I adopt what you said, too!

Post 93

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 9:53amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

You departed from the limps there, I know.

Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 94

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andy,

Where are my manners?

Obviously the nasty things I said to you as a response to the personal insults to me and the woman I love are now withdrawn. They should no longer be considered as my opinion of you.

Michael


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 95

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jon,

He departed merely by talking the blind talk - the only talk you guys were talking. His position actually is the position of most everybody on that thread characterized as a limp.

I did not see that as an endorsement of the playpen antics, merely as a gracious exit from childishness.

Be careful with what you call a limp, too. It might get pretty hard all of a sudden and run up some inconvenient places without lubrication.

Michael


Post 96

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 10:30amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Michael,

You are not keeping up.

Post 97

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 10:59amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andy,

I also accept your apology because I have a hard time not forgiving people. Don't abuse that fact.

Sarah

Post 98

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 11:15amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I also accept your apology because I have a hard time not forgiving people. Don't abuse that fact.
 
Thanks for the warning. :)

We only can try to manage our own behavior. That is usually a full time job, and often heartache comes with it.  


Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Post 99

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 12:58pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hey Jon

Nice bit of snide there.

However you are confused. The person who made the comment about your behaviour with the used car salesman (me) actually argued strongly against the "price gouging" notion. That would put me in Linz' "erect" category, so your Post 91 is already wrong (and offensive) on that front.

Your comment that I think "lying, cheating used car salesmen must be treated with the utmost integrity and fairness", is not accurate either. What I said was that I would rather take advice from someone else than you, because:

(a) you post a story, with half the context missing, asking for "feedback" when I realised quite quickly that all you were doing was looking for a fight with someone

(b) you appear to treat integrity as an optional feature dependent on the actions of others

The fact that you post a snide remark (in post 91) instead of discussing things openly at the time when the disagreement arose confirms that my choice was correct.

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.