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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 4:13pmSanction this postReply
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I was going to post this as a quote, but could not give the necessary introductory information on it.  Professor Richard Feynman was once approached by someone who was putting together an article about the 'human side' of prominent scientists.  Since Feynman played the bongo drums he was evidently a human scientist.  Feynman was obviously appalled that somehow solving the problems of science was not 'human', so this is the letter he fired back.

Dear Sir:

     The fact that I beat a drum has nothing to do with the fact that I do theoretical physics.  Theoretical physics is a human endeavor, one of the higher developments of human beings--and this perpetual desire to prove that people who do it are human by showing that they do other things that a few other humans do (like playing bongo drums) is insulting to me.
     I am human enough to tell you to go to hell.

Sincerely,
Richard P. Feynman
This is from a recently published book of his correspondence that I am now reading.  For any Feynman fans out there, the name is Perfectly Reasonable Deviations From the Beaten Track: The Letters of Richard P. Feynman.  I am almost finished with it, so I can now judge it as highly recommended.


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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
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I read this collection of Feynman's letters a few months ago.  It's great, like everything from Feynman.  I wish more Objectivists would check him out--I think they'd love him.  Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman is a good place to start.  What Do You Care What Other People Think, the follow-up book, is excellent too--and you can see Feynman's individualism in the title.

Feynman once got into an argument with his daughter's high school math teacher because he had counted her wrong for solving a problem by an unorthodox method.  The high school math teacher ended up telling Feynman that he "didn't know anything" about math.  Of course, the teacher didn't realize that Feynman was at the time perhaps the greatest living physicist.

Feynman's crystal-clear thinking, his way of expressing things in the most simple and obvious and dumb way that he possibly can, is infectious.  When I read his writing, it's as if I can see how he thinks, and I feel that it's rubbing off on me and giving me some of his good habits and making me smarter.  In grad school, for a biology class, Feynman once went to the librarian and asked for a "map of the cat."  She was shocked and said, "do you mean a zoological chart??"  Someone once said that Feynman, the great genius, "talks like a bum"--I see that as part of his genius.  He once was part of a panel of physicists to speak at a physics convention; afterward, he was talking to a secretary who had been there, and she told him he must've been the dumbest physicist at the conference.  When he asked why, she said, "because you're the only one I was able to understand." 


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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 7:09pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel-
One of my favorites is when he sat in on a philosophy class, was trying to figure out what they were talking about by "essential object" and caused utter chaos by asking the simple question "is a brick an essential object?"  He did not get any further due to the heated debate that followed this question.


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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 7:56pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel, do you have grounds to believe that not enough Objectivist have read Feynmen? I'm just curious, remembering that Rand wrote in her journals (in an outline for the story on the bomb) something about a fool playing a bongo (Feynman). Do you think that scared some away?
I've never read him, but kinda like the idea of a bongo beating physicist, though I am amused and heartened by his anger about being "humanized" by it, which is interesting in light of Rand's comment.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for sharing Jody. I love Feynman's work, both scientific and personal. I haven't picked up Beaten Track yet because I'm poor and waiting for the paperback to come out.

Joe, if Rand's comments were about Feynman, she mustn't have known a damn thing about him. For great anecdotal fun, the two books Daniel mentioned are great. If you want to know about his life, look for Genius by James Gleick.

Sarah

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Sarah. I'm not much into the study of physics, but he sounds like an interesting character, and I've certainly shelved his books many times at work. Would you recommend him for the layman, is he a good read beyond the physics?

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 8:47pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Oh yeah. Great read, physics or no. Specifically, those two that Daniel mentioned. I'm sure the book of letters Jody is reading too, but it's expensive.

Sarah

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 9:08pmSanction this postReply
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Expensive? That's what libraries are for!
Thanks for the recommendation.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 10:37pmSanction this postReply
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I recently read Feynman's "The Meaning Of It All" and was disappointed with his ubiquitous moral uncertainty. I mean the universe is consistent, non-zero/non-void, and yet people doubt their moral right to act to sustain the life and consciousness the universe expresses in them. Tragically ignorant.

Quoting from "The Meaning Of It All":

I just said that ethical values lie outside the scientific realm. I have to defend that, because many people think the other way. They think that scientifically we should get some conclusions about moral values.


Science is systematic knowledge, which is only meaningful in the context of rational life. Science, a product of rational life, has no conclusions to give regarding the process (life) that creates it? It's a "Stolen concept" to question existence from the perspective of non-existence?

I have several reasons for that. You see, if you don't have a good reason, you have to have several reasons, so I have four reasons to think that moral values lie outside the scientific realm. First, in the past there were conflicts. The metaphysical positions have changed, and there have been practically no effects on the ethical views. So there must be a hint that there is an independence.

Second, I already pointed out that, I think at least, there are good men who practice Christian ethics and don't believe in the divinity of Christ. Incidentally, I forgot to say earlier that I take a provincial view of religion. I know that there are many people here who have religions that are not Western religions. But in a subject as broad as this it is better to take a special example, and you have to just translate to see how it looks if you are an Arab or a Buddhist, or whatever.

The third thing is that, as far as I know in the gathering of scientific evidence, there doesn't seem to be anywhere, anything that says whether the Golden Rule is a good one or not. I don't have any evidence of it on the basis of scientific study.

And finally I would like to make a little philosophical argument this I'm not very good at, but I would like to make a little philosophical argument to explain why theoretically I think that science and moral questions are independent. The common human problem, the big question, always is "Should I do this?" It is a question of action. "What should I do? Should I do this?" And how can we answer such a question? We can divide it into two parts. We can say, "If I do this what will happen?" That doesn't tell me whether I should do this. We still have another part, which is "Well, do I want that to happen?" In other words, the first question"If I do this what will happen?"is at least susceptible to scientific investigation; in fact, it is a typical scientific question. It doesn't mean we know what will happen. Far from it. We never know what is going to happen. The science is very rudimentary. But, at least it is in the realm of science we have a method to deal with it. The method is "Try it and see"we talked about thatand accumulate the information and so on. And so the question "If I do it what will happen?" is a typically scientific question. But the question "Do I want this to happen"in the ultimate momentis not. Well, you say, if I do this, I see that everybody is killed, and, of course, I don't want that. Well, how do you know you don't want people killed? You see, at the end you must have some ultimate judgment.

You could take a different example. You could say, for instance, "If I follow this economic policy, I see there is going to be a depression, and, of course, I don't want a depression." Wait. You see, only knowing that it is a depression doesn't tell you that you do not want it. You have then to judge whether the feelings of power you would get from this, whether the importance of the country moving
> in this direction is better than the cost to the people who are suffering. Or maybe there would be some sufferers and not others. And so there must at the end be some ultimate judgment somewhere along the line as to what is valuable, whether people are valuable, whether life is valuable. Deep in the endyou may follow the argument of what
will happen further and further alongbut ultimately you have to decide "Yeah, I want that" or "No, I don't." And the judgment there is of a different nature. I do not see how by knowing what will happen alone it is possible to know if ultimately you want the last of the things. I believe, therefore, that it is impossible to decide moral questions by the scientific technique, and that the two things are independent.


I think this is a horrible proclamation of irresponsibility. Maybe Feynman was trying to pacify professors and politicans in a charged atmosphere. He seems to be saying, "if you can't be certain, reason won't justify efforts you make on behalf of your life, because you don't know that ultimately, your life itself is of any value."

Perhaps this is an ultimate issue of faith, that the consciousness and life we discover and build on *should* be valued. Certainly if it isn't, humanity wouldn't have the motivation to perfect the science which doubts itself.

Scott

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 10:49pmSanction this postReply
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As was said, Ayn Rand mentioned Richard Feynman in her journals, on p. 332.  Apparently someone she interviewed referred to him (fondly) as a "screwball"; and she notes that he played his drums in the lab, and that the faster he played the harder he was thinking.  These notes in her journal are from when Ayn Rand was planning to write a movie about the making of the atomic bomb...Feynman worked as a group leader in the Los Alamos project when he was straight out of grad school.  One of the main bigshots, I think it was the great physicist Hans Bethe, used to run his ideas by Feynman first before presenting them to the other physicists at Los Alamos---that was because Feynman was the only one who wasn't intimidated by authority and would just say bluntly if he thought an idea was crazy or not, with no fear of embarrassing himself if he was wrong.

Joe, the main reason I think not enough Objectivists have read Feynman is just that I don't often hear them talking about him.

I second what Sarah said, that Feynman's books are definitely worthwhile even if you're not interested in physics.  Lots of the stories don't even involve physics or science.  For example, there's a big section of stories about Feynman picking up women at bars....and his discoveries in this area (as in almost every area) are quite interesting.


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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:00pmSanction this postReply
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Scott quoted Feynman as saying:

And so there must at the end be some ultimate judgment somewhere along the line as to what is valuable, whether people are valuable, whether life is valuable

I don't see this as being far from Ayn Rand's view that the choice to live is at the bottom of her ethics; one must first decide that they want to live, and then if you do then Ayn Rand's morality is supposed to apply.

Maybe I'm being generous, but I don't know if Feynman's statement here is inconsistent with Ayn Rand's view of morality; in fact to me it seems interesting how close they come to coinciding.

But maybe I'm being generous.

Also, note how honest Feynman is--he admits that he isn't very good at philosophical arguments.  If you disagree with his philosophical argument, you at least have to give him credit for admitting he isn't good at it.


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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:09pmSanction this postReply
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John Galt:

"My morality, the morality of reason, is contained in a single axiom: existence exists—and in a single choice: to live"

This is what I was saying in my previous post is not too far from Feynman's statement.  Science can't tell John Galt that he must choose to live--and neither can anything else--but if he does, then Objectivist ethics will apply.  This seems similar to Feynman saying that in the end some ultimate judgment somewhere along the line must be made about what is valuable.

(Edited by Daniel O'Connor on 10/11, 11:10pm)

(Edited by Daniel O'Connor on 10/11, 11:17pm)


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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:16pmSanction this postReply
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Did Feynman say bad things about the study of philosophy? If I have the right guy he was rather dismissive of the entire enterprise.


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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:20pmSanction this postReply
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Feynman did often ridicule philosophers, but they deserved it.  I think there's a lot to learn from Feynman's criticisms of the field of philosophy---for example, the story about "essential objects" is a great example of how philosophy so often goes wrong.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:24pmSanction this postReply
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Feynman:
I always thought I was a good father, being proud of both my kids and not trying to push them into any particular direction. I did not want them to be professors like me. I would be just as happy if they were truck drivers or ballet dancers, provided they really enjoyed what they were doing. But then they always find a way to hit back at you. My son Carl for instance. He is a student at MIT and what does he want to do? He wants to be a God-damned philosopher.


Edit: The place I got this from said it was directed at his daughter, but the "my son Carl" part says otherwise. Either way, I've read this elsewhere too so I know it's him talking.

Sarah
(Edited by Sarah House
on 10/11, 11:29pm)


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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:35pmSanction this postReply
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I mean, maybe I'm being generous, but I give him credit for recognizing what complete garbage most philosophy is.  Too bad he never met Ayn Rand, maybe she could've convinced him the field was more important.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:36pmSanction this postReply
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Feynman did often ridicule philosophers, but they deserved it.  I think there's a lot to learn from Feynman's criticisms of the field of philosophy---for example, the story about "essential objects" is a great example of how philosophy so often goes wrong.

Yeah, I thought so. That's what turned me off on the dude. I believe 95% of all philosophical thought is horse-shit but that other 5% is a bed of roses. 


Post 17

Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 8:29amSanction this postReply
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I should have said I have a lot of respect for Feynman as a scientist, from reading his books. His epistemology epitomized by his famous quote:

"Nature uses only the longest threads to weave her patterns, so that each small piece of her fabric reveals the organization of the entire tapestry.


That's a profound summary of our fractal-like existence which makes reason effective.

His epistemology is sloppy if you analyze his four points:

1. his "hint" is corroborating evidence contingent on other factors.

2. "Second, I already pointed out that, I think at least, there are good men who practice Christian ethics and don't believe in the divinity of Christ (religious dogma)".

Good men by what standard? By what he considers "good" by reason, sentiment, tradition? What? He doesn't give the criteria for the "good" he judges religious ethics on.)

3. "The third thing is that, as far as I know in the gathering of scientific evidence, there doesn't seem to be anywhere, anything that says whether the Golden Rule is a good one or not. I don't have any evidence of it on the basis of scientific study."

The Golden rule (both) follow from Rand's metaphysics. Again, another arguement on his authority that seems to have at its premise cultural relativsm; "You all know what I mean". Rand's scientific standard is man qua rational man.

4. "I do not see how by knowing what will happen alone it is possible to know if ultimately you want the last of the things. I believe, therefore, that it is impossible to decide moral questions by the scientific technique, and that the two things are independent."

The scientific method that converges on theories by trial and error presumes intention and value standard; even if aesthetic standard - physics as artistic pursuit.

Again Rand shines in her theory of art; physics is an art - it is a selective recreation of what the artist-of-reality, the physicist, considers important!

Scott

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Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 8:41amSanction this postReply
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Am I the only one that finds it absurd to criticize Feynman for sloppy epistemology when he wasn't claiming to have thought it through and then turn around and say Rand, who did claim to be a philosopher, was "leaving parts of Objectivism for us to fill in" when someone points out sloppy philosophy on her part? To point it out is one thing, but to turn around and not grant Rand the same criticism?

Obviously I don't know how you'd address the issue Scott, so this isn't directed at you. It's directed at anyone who thinks it applies to them.

Sarah

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Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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Before I even begin to address anything else in your post Scott, let me start here:

Again Rand shines in her theory of art; physics is an art - it is a selective recreation of what the artist-of-reality, the physicist, considers important!
Maybe you are making some vague metaphor, but otherwise this is absurd.  Physicists do not recreate reality according to their metaphysical value judgements, they seek to discover what reality is.  As Feynman said, "nature is what she is", i.e. she doesn't give a damn about the scientists metaphysical value judgement.  Reality exists, and science when done properly is limited to reality, not the scientists value judgements.


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