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Post 40

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Joe D.,

That's odd, because when I think of such issues, I think of how things are, how I'd like them to be, and what I need to do to get from A to B. As a non-Objectivist, I prefer brainers to no-brainers and long walks in the woods (not on the beach, sand is annoying). I also understand the Oist objection to things like G&F, but have no clue why you feel it necessary to throw in the "pro-freedom" thing.

Feelin' a bit testy tonight,
Sarah

(Edited by Sarah House
on 10/31, 8:57pm)


Post 41

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 - 12:39amSanction this postReply
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 but I would kill anyone who deliberately shot my dogs
 
What if a farmer shot them because your dogs were mauling his sheep? You say they are not your property, but if they were mauling his sheep would the responsibility not rest upon your shoulders? If they were not your property, it surely wouldn't; but if they are your property, then......


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Post 42

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 - 6:56amSanction this postReply
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In property law, calling stuff "property" entitles the owner of it only to economic damages, not personal damages (like pain and suffering), or punitive damages. This means if someone shoots your 10 year old mut, chances are that you'll get only the fair market value for the mut. Maybe $60? Do you guys think this is adequate compensation? If not, treating all animals only as property is not the answer.

Jordan


Post 43

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 - 7:25pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

I don't think that's how property law currently works.  For example, if I were to snatch an old lady's purse and get caught doing so by the police, the law wouldn't just simply require me to reimburse her fair market value (this could merely be accomplished by simply handing her her purse back - some punishment!).  I would instead get a fine for much more than the value of her purse, and might even do a few days in jail.  This is how it ought to work for someone who intentionally harms another's animal.


Post 44

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 6:53amSanction this postReply
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Pete,

Your is example falls under criminal law, not property law.

Jordan


Post 45

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 11:38amSanction this postReply
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I guess I consider violations of property rights a criminal matter.  Why is burglerizing someone's home and stealing their possessions a crime in the first place?  Because your violating their right to their own property.

Post 46

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Pete,

I sympathize with your view, but let me clarify. In one sense, every and all legal harm is associated with loss or destruction of property. In this sense, even we are property. Killing us would equate to destroying the property right we have in ourselves. If "property" is to be treated so robustly under the law, then it's no surprise and horribly uninteresting that animals should also be considered property.

The question isn't really whether animals should be considered property. Rather, the question should be how the law should remedy destruction or loss of an animal. This is why I referred to "property law." In property law, we are usually entitled to monetary compensation for the loss or destruction of property. For example, say we bought a ladder for $50, then let our neighbor borrow it, who subsequently breaks it, and whom we subsequently sue. Usually, we are entitled mostly to the fair market value of the ladder or the cost of fixing the ladder, whichever is less. And that's it. We're not entitled to pain and suffering due to its destruction, nor punitive damages, nor is our neighbor subject to fines or imprisonment. Property damages just don't work that way.

If you think someone should be entitled to pain and suffering damages from, punitive damages from, or criminal sanctions against someone who destroys or loses an animal, then you should probably look to criminal law and tort law, and not property law, for your solution.

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 11/02, 1:27pm)


Post 47

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 1:29pmSanction this postReply
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Pete,

Your is example falls under criminal law, not property law.

Jordan
Jordan is right, and the very reason it is prosecutable under criminal law is because, unlike an animal, the woman has rights. 


Post 48

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
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I believe that since Objectivism acknowledges (higher) animals as conscious beings (though not rational), there should be a heirarchy of rights.  Animals do not have the same rights as humans, but do have more rights than an object.  There is clear scientific and objective proof that higher animals, many of which are pets, have consciousness and an IQ greater than lesser animals, fish, bugs and plants etc.  It is not unreasonable for laws to reflect that, and they should.  It is also interesting to note that most serial killers begin by torturing and killing animals, then move on to humans.  This is behavior that should be criminalized.

That said, I don't agree with these ideas about defending/protecting yourself and your property from wild animals.  If they are threatening you in any way, your rights trump their's.  Nowadays you aren't even supposed to kill some damn bear that wanders into your yard.  I don't know that I would, necessarily, but if I felt threatened I would not hesitate to kill it.

(Edited by Kurt Eichert on 11/03, 6:41am)


Post 49

Wednesday, November 2, 2005 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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Criminal law consists of crimes against the state. In a criminal case the charge is "The People vs. ..."

There should be no criminal law. In a free society all crime would be against individuals and their property. The charges would always be "Victim X vs. Perpetrator Y".

The appropriate compensation due a victim by the criminal depends on the context. Compensation due for the destruction of a companion animal would be different than it would be if the animal were not special to the victim.

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Post 50

Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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I believe that since Objectivism acknowledges (higher) animals as conscious beings (though not rational), there should be a heirarchy of rights.  Animals do not have the same rights as humans, but do have more rights than an object.  There is clear scientific and objective proof that higher animals, many of which are pets, have consciousness and an IQ greater than lesser animals, fish, bugs and plants etc.  It is not unreasonable for laws to reflect that, and they should.  It is also interesting to note that most serial killers begin by torturing and killing animals, then move on to humans.  This is behavior that should be criminalized.

As much as I detest animal cruelty, I see no way to confer rights on creatures that, by their very nature, can neither grasp the concept of rights nor respect the rights of man.  If an animal can be said to have a right not to be tortured, why would it not also have a right not to be slaughtered for food?



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