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Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:54pmSanction this postReply
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"Libertarianism, Objectivism, and Rage"
                          a talk by Barbara Branden
       reported (with gratuitous wise cracks) by Roger Bissell

The prelude: Early in the evening of Monday, November 21, my wife, Becky, and I braved the horrific L.A. rush hour traffic and motored up from Orange County (the county with a peel) to a very special meeting of the Karl Hess Club in West Los Angeles. (We heartily recommend the cuisine at the meeting site. Billingsley's Restaurant served up a delicious trout and a mouth-watering tri-tip steak.) Arriving relatively late, Becky and I had to sit at separate tables (but situated so we could still make goo-goo eyes at each other :-), and I managed to snag a seat at the table of honor, already occupied by Dr. John Hospers, former SOLO contributor Jim Kilbourne, emcee and noted sci-fi author Brad Linaweaver, Karl Hess's niece, two other folks whose names I have forgotten, and the evening's speaker (and another ex-SOLO contributor), Barbara Branden.

The dinner chat: Linaweaver, good-natured agnostic that he is, shared his chagrain over having converted his ex-wife from Baptist and Democratic leanings to Episcopalianism and Libertarianism, after which she promptly divorced him. I suggested that if he was willing to be a sacrificial marital animal, he could save quite a few young ladies that way. He also mentioned how Nietzsche is a perennial college favorite over Kant, when students are given a choice of whom to study or write about, and in the same vein (?), I lamented the fact that the philosophy sections of bookstores have shrunk in recent years, to the point that philosophy has become a... "niche"...market. The head table seemed to be a bastion of Bush supporters in an otherwise largely anarcho-libertarian group. Linaweaver vigorously pressed his case that while Bush is a good President, Reagan was a great one -- more, that Reagan was arguably the greatest President of the 20th century. I offered to endorse this claim, if Linaweaver would reciprocate by endorsing my belief that Bush is the greatest President of the 21st century. At that point, Linaweaver became very abusive, calling me a bastard and a smart ass, even baring his teeth at me. (At least, he seemed to become harshly judgmental. :-) I also had some brief interaction with Jim Kilbourne and Barbara Branden, both of whom I was meeting for the first time, and both of whom had ncie things to say about my writing style, which they appreciate for its clarity. Actually, what they said was that they appreciate the fact that I make it easy for them to disagree with me. <sigh> Jim and I also discovered that we have the same two favorite Puccini arias: Nessun dorma from "Turandot" and O mio babbino caro from "Gianni Schicchi." When I introduced myself to Barbara ("Hello, Barbara, I'm Roger Bissell"), she responded, "Well, of course, you are!" (Indeed, who else would I be!) Her quiet, intense, friendliness won me over, so I immediately set aside my automatized mind-set of harsh judgmentalism to Enemies of Objectivism and decided grudgingly to open-mindedly consider what she had to say.

The Agora: Various people did their show and tell of events and products they were involved with. It was announced that Barbara's talk was being video-taped with her permission, and that it would be marketed pending her approval of the tape.

The talk: Barbara said that on a wide range of controversial topics, nearly everybody seems quick to anger; families and long-term friendships are damaged or broken up by things that can't be unsaid. She partially understands the reasons, which she will share with us.

Barbara gave three examples from her personal experience: (1) When she questioned on an online discussion group why James J. Martin had a long-term association with an anti-semitic organization, the IHR, if he wan't anti-semitic himself, Barbara was met with angry abuse and vicious sarcasm and lost a 30-year friendship in the process. (2) On an Objectivist blog, when some were trying to justify Leonard Peikoff's denunciation of David Kelley for speaking to a libertarian group, Barbara pointed out and documented that Peikoff had twice appeared at book-signing parties at Laissez-Faire books after excommunicating Kelley. She was accused of dishonesty and evasion and banned from the blog, and she and Nathaniel Branden were branded as "Enemies of Ayn Rand and Objectivism." (3) Recent discussions of the 1968 Split are polarized around people painting Nathaniel and Barbara as villains and Rand as being irrational. In summary, Barbara said, "these people are all nuts!" But why are they behaving this way? Barbara suggested that we set aside those with stored resentment and hatred, who seem to explode just to vent and shock others and look at more complicated factors.

Barbara focused on several key ideas: (1) The erroneous notion that there are "inherently evil ideas," and that you can judge a person's moral character by judging their convictions and thoughts. Someone who has "evil ideas" in effect is someone who disagrees with us, and they are thus evil people, and it is acceptable to denigrate and abuse those who disagree with us for that reason. By establishing their evil, we also fortify our own purity. We all agree that Muslim Fundamentalism is a serious threat, but does this mean we should damn all Muslim Fundamentalists, even a 13 year old boy? His context is that Muslims are heroes and Americans are the Great Satan, and he doesn't know any better. Was Andrei in We the Living evil? He eventually rejected Communism, once he saw its evil, anti-life consequences. If he were alive today, he would not be a Communist. Young people often brand something they dislike as "the most evil." They exaggerate, with no historical context to back it up. Ideas aren't evil, only people are evil. And people often err not because they are corrupt to the core, but because life is difficult. Why keep trying to sell your ideas in the world, if people are that evil? We have the right to make mistakes in life without being damned. We have the right to appropriate anger -- e.g., at the disastrous consequences of ideas and actions -- but not to unjust moral outrage at another's errors. If you don't like being treated as a destroyer because of your ideas, don't do that to others. (I am reminded here of the Frozen Abstraction Fallacy, written about by Rand in "Collectivized Ethics." She gave the example of altruists who regard egoism as not a morality; it is the same error for egoists to regard altruism as not a morality.) (2) The erroneous notion that just because you have a certain perception of reality, others must have it, too. E.g., we see what bad consequences ideas lead to, but others may not be aware of it. Barbara always saw piles of dead bodies when people advocated the draft. Pro and anti gun people both envision innocent victims if their opponents' ideas prevail. Our ideas are not self-evident to our opponents. Rarely do people disagree out of sheer perversity. (3) The vast oversimplification of the psychology of others. We are mentally complex creatures. As a set of principles of human action, psychology is still in its infancy. It is a relatively new science, its methodology is not agreed upon, and its philosophical base is not firm. We understand some motivations, not all. Various proposed theories (e.g., Freud's) have holes. Self-esteem is central, and one day, when it is scientifically validated, we'll have a theory of human action, but today we can't psychologize and assume we know each other's minds. Nobody evades knowingly. There is a big difference between conscious, willful evasion and being dimly aware that you aren't looking in all the directions you should be looking. Holding questionable ideas is usually the result of self-induced fog, not simple, crude evasion. Yet, "evasion" is the Scarlet Letter of Objectivism. When all else fails, say that someone is guilty of evasion. The motive here seems to be moral authoritarianism, the desire to keep people in line, not just disagreeing with them, but holding them in moral contempt and judging them as evil when they disagree. A tip: if you fly into an immediate rage when challenged, it may be a sign that you are not sure about your beliefs. Another label, "Social metaphysics," where you were supposedly guilty of finding reality not in facts but in the opinions of other people, used to be the cancer of Objectivism. This, too, seems prompted by moral authoritarianism.

In conclusion, Barbara asked: isn't there enough pain in the world? Wouldn't it be nice if someone for a change erred in being too lenient in judging others? There is a great lack of empathy these days. Judging people without empathy and awareness of their context won't change people and won't change the world. It will just make us outcasts. We should strive for a realistic, sympathetic understanding of others rather than morally condemning them (unless they deserve it, such as racists who deny the Holocaust or think it was a good thing).

The discussion: Lineweaver asked if Barbara thought that Reagan was great because he saved us from Communism, and she agreed. My wife, Becky, said that people who are attacked become defensive, and it is hard for them to keep an open mind to our ideas or for us to persuade them; and that when you listen to another's point of view non-judgmentally, it is more likely they will be open to your point of view; Barbara agreed with this. One guy offered the distinction between moral condemnation that "X is bad" and moral judgment that "X is bad for me," and that the latter guides you in what to do, while the former offers only anger and not guidance. I asked about the role of suppressed anger and use of drugs and alcohol which de-inhibits people who become more angry and belligerant, and I asked if Barbara was going to write a book about this topic; she said no, but she was working on a book that was related to the topic. Another guy suggested that personality type and addiction were behind people's efforts to control others; Lineweaver and Barbara said that we really don't have enough data to know that these are causing people to be controlling and judgmental. Neil Schulman, a Jewish guy, asked why it wouldn't be OK to be friends with an anti-Semite or a member of a racist group? It was suggested that this only gives them legitimacy ("some of my best friends are Jews"). Steve Reed suggested that the Internet shears off context, and we regard each other as disembodied intellects, rather than persons, and he apologized for unfortunately breaking off relations with various people because of this. A guy supporting gun owner rights told of his attempts to persuade a legislator to favor concealed carry laws, giving her much data and argument to support his claim, and she was still unconvinced and didn't want to hear more; he asked if she was being unreasonable. Barbara said you can't tell, and she suggested that one of the biggest mistakes she made in earlier years was feeling that she had to accept any argument that she wasn't able to refute, instead of saying, "It still bothers me, and I'll have to think about it."

All in all, it was a very stimulating, fun evening. Barbara's talk was very well received, generating a standing ovation and much friendly discussion. The lack of rancor and antagonism was surprising and heartening. We don't usually attend Karl Hess Club functions (the only other one being a talk by John Hospers on his relationship with Ayn Rand), and we probably won't in the future, but this event was well worth the time and money to attend it. And the time and effort to write it up and share with you, gentle reader. :-)

Best regards,
Roger Bissell

(Edited by Roger Bissell on 11/22, 6:30pm)


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Post 1

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 6:15pmSanction this postReply
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Roger,

Dayamm! I wish I could have been there. I am unashamedly envious of you.

Michael


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Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
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Ditto.

Mike E.

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Post 3

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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Roger,
Can you help us, since you were there, see the difference between what Ms. Branden said (as you report it), and the standard empiricist-based ethical skepticism that has been propounded for generations?

From what you write, it's difficult to discern any.

The idea that I must have the equivalent of a PhD in some (not yet discovered) good Psychological theory and know a person intimately for years before making ordinary moral judgements about their motives and character is simply -- false. (I exaggerate the criteria, but not much.)

Ordinary, semi-intelligent, semi-rational individuals have been making correct moral judgements -- positive and negative -- (and knowingly so) for literally thousands of years. The views expressed are nothing more than moral skepticism. Or so it seems.

I wonder if those sympathetic to Ms. Branden's thesis would be so quick, were one to suggest that, in logic, one would have to express equal skepticism about pronouncing someone to be of good character. But, oddly, that doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone.

(Caveat: as if it needed to be said ... yes, too many people on the Internet are too quick to judge another person. That's a rather special context from which to draw generalities.)

P.S. [Added in editing.] Or is it specifically Objectivists who are poor are making moral judgments? Or Objectivists participating in Internet fora? Those are theses I might be willing to regard as plausible. [Later editing: replaced 'subjectivism', in the first line with 'ethical skepticism' for the sake of clarity. They are close cousins, but the former term may cause confusion.]

(Edited by Jeff Perren on 11/22, 7:45pm)

(Edited by Jeff Perren on 11/22, 8:09pm)


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Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff:

"Ordinary, semi-intelligent, semi-rational individuals have been making correct moral judgements -- positive and negative -- (and knowingly so) for literally thousands of years. The views expressed are nothing more than moral skepticism. Or so it seems."

Excellent point, Jeff. While you may regard a child or the merely ignorant as special cases, if someone makes what seems like "evil" statements to me, I find myself trying to ascertain their level of knowledge in order that I can judge their true culpability. To remain forever in the dark about not only the nature of evil but it's manifestations, it's form, amounts to willful ignorance & moral abdication.

Ross

[ed] The point about the disconnected nature of the internet is salient. But if nothing else it makes one damn sure that one is saying *exactly* what one means.


(Edited by Ross Elliot
on 11/22, 8:07pm)


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Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
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"I wonder if those sympathetic to Ms. Branden's thesis would be so quick, were one to suggest that, in logic, one would have to express equal skepticism about pronouncing someone to be of good character. But, oddly, that doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone."

Jeff,

The presumption is made that a person HAS good character unless it is proven otherwise. Given this initial presumption there would be no need to be skeptical of someone's pronouncement that someone is of good character unless one had proof to the contrary.


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Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 8:32pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

The problem isn't in moral judgments in themselves. The problem is that Objectivists and Libertarians have had no criteria whatsoever in leveling highly overblown charges of "evil," "immoral" etc., against each other instead of uniting.

The whole sorry divided history of both Objectivism and Libertarianism is proof of that.

Once they get through pointing fingers and proving to each other that they are all moral scumbags from one angle or another, what gets left over for real evil bastards like Bin Laden & Co.?

Precious little, from what I see.

I don't think that Barbara or Roger or anybody sympathetic to that idea are calling on people to suspend all moral judgements (I remember well Barbara's opinion of Antiwar.com and founder). Instead, I see a case being made to use more rational criteria when judging friendly voices and save some condemnation for the real, actual, 100% existing bad guys out there who want to kill us all or enslave us.

Michael


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Post 7

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 9:10pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,
I believe the principle 'innocent until proven guilty' is valid in law. In ethics, I believe the principle 'I don't know one way or the other until I've gained experience with this person and thought about him or her' is more appropriate. Someday, we may live in a society that permits one to use your principle, but my experience is that we are not there.

Neither hostility, nor pollyanna, I say.


Michael,
So you are going with the 'Objectivists are poor at making correct moral judgments' hypothesis? One could make a case. My experience has been somewhat different. Having been on the periphery of Objectivist circles for thirty years, I have seen much of what you describe. But I've also seen a lot of individuals who, rightly, say "I don't care that much about the character of Rand, Branden, you-name-them. Now, what do you think about X's theory of propositions, or Y's view of whether it's in one's rational self-interest to market pornography, or Z's assertion that gold is no longer needed for an objective money policy, or ...."

But maybe I just run in different circles.

I think the whole 'Oist's are at each other's throats all the time' is overblown. But then, I don't get most of my experiences on Internet fora and I really don't care that much one way or another what happens at ARI or TOC.

In any case, I don't think it's such a bad thing to pronounce on someone's character, in the appropriate circumstances. Especially, if one is making those pronouncements in the privacy of one's own mind. They are, after all, essential to dealing with people properly.

Or is it only the strong emotion that accompanies such judgments that is being frowned on...?

Jeff


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Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 9:53pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

"Someday, we may live in a society that permits one to use your principle, but my experience is that we are not there."

I think I use my principle every day, and I think a great many people do. There are actually a lot more decent people out there than not, I mean a LOT more. By decent I mean people who mean well, have a reasonable amount of goodwill towards other people. It is a mistake to not, in general, give people the benefit of the doubt in your every day interactions. I don't leave my house and forget to lock it but I don't have discussions with people while harboring the suspicion from the get go that "they might be evil". If someone proves themselves to be an irascible moron I don't have a problem with telling them that, but I don't conclude they're evil. Neither do I conclude that I'm a "pollyanna".

Even having a discussion presumes disagreement. If everyone agreed on a particular topic there would be no need to have a discussion about it. The purpose for an individual having a discussion should be to either gain new knowledge about a topic or pass on your knowledge to another individual. This presumes in both cases that you value the person or persons that you are having the discussion with and you have goodwill towards them. Occasionally someone actually changes their mind about a topic. This GOODWILL is a very important thing to hang onto if anyone is to achieve their initial purpose. Even if neither party comes to an agreement with the other if you truly STARTED OUT with goodwill there is no reason not to END UP with goodwill towards the other party. One of the ways to maintain goodwill is to find some point of agreement with the other person and try to build on it. What disappoints me often is when discussions "blow up" because of the unwillingness of one or both parties to find a single point of agreement. You can always nit pick your way around any point anyone tries to make about anything if you desire to do so and many otherwise intelligent people are very good at it.

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Post 9

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 10:52pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

I am talking about degree, not kind.

What do you call Bin Laden after you have called a fellow Objectivist "evil"? Er... really really really evil?

Why not call the Objectivist an asshole instead? Or even "being an asshole" instead of "is and asshole"? Or "is wrong" instead of "is dishonest"? Need I go on?

Or better yet, why not try to persuade him through rational discourse and showing by example? THAT is what makes the world change.

You might run in different circles than the bickerers, but the divisions in Libertarianism and Objectivism are much deeper and numerous than ARI and TOC. They are many and they are very real.

Michael


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Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 11:34pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,
About all that, we agree.


Post 11

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 11:44pmSanction this postReply
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Dayaamm!

You startled me, Jeff!

//;-)

Michael


Post 12

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 2:11amSanction this postReply
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Michael SK writes:
 

....The problem is that Objectivists and Libertarians have had no criteria whatsoever in leveling highly overblown charges of "evil," "immoral" etc., against each other instead of uniting.

The whole sorry divided history of both Objectivism and Libertarianism is proof of that.

Once they get through pointing fingers and proving to each other that they are all moral scumbags from one angle or another, what gets left over for real evil bastards like Bin Laden & Co.?

This seems to be part of the destructive legacy of Ayn Rand's injust and malicious psychologizing and judgmentalizing. From my perspective, she was often gratuitous and even hateful. Evidently Rand was privately enraged and bitter and dismally disappointed over the natures of both friend and foe -- and didn't know how to properly express this in her writing and life.
 
But an approach based on amoralism and toleration of what looks like terrible evil isn't the answer either. In the end, today's standard philosophers and academics -- who write long, thoughtful, discursive, meditative ruminations on various, important, controversial, morally-pivotal subjects -- handle these issues much differently and much better than polemical short-essayist Ayn Rand.   



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Post 13

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
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Andre wrote,

"But an approach based on amoralism and toleration of what looks like terrible evil isn't the answer either. In the end, today's standard philosophers and academics -- who write long, thoughtful, discursive, meditative ruminations on various, important, controversial, morally-pivotal subjects -- handle these issues much differently and much better than polemical short-essayist Ayn Rand."

Actually, I think Rand does a better job of getting to the heart of an issue, even if you don't agree with her view on the subject. Also, I think she's more insightful than the standard philosophers and academics, who often cannot see the forest for the trees. I sometimes think there's a tendency for academics to muddy the waters in order to make them appear deep. There's nothing like a clear, forthright statement expressed in clear understandable English. And have these academics succeeded in reaching the general public the way Rand has? Philosophy in today's Universities is vast wasteland of irrelevant, hair-splitting minutiae written solely for other academics.

Rand is a breath of fresh air by comparison.

- Bill

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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
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I concur heartily with Bill. 'standard philosophers and academics' are, in general, the last group of individuals to whom I would look for moral guidance. (And I have a degree in Philosophy and spent many years afterward in academia. I know whereof I speak.)

(Edited by Jeff Perren on 11/23, 4:08pm)


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Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 3:17amSanction this postReply
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The estimable William D' wrote:

Actually, I think Rand does a better job of getting to the heart of an issue, even if you don't agree with her view on the subject. Also, I think she's more insightful than the standard philosophers and academics, who often cannot see the forest for the trees. I sometimes think there's a tendency for academics to muddy the waters in order to make them appear deep. There's nothing like a clear, forthright statement expressed in clear understandable English. And have these academics succeeded in reaching the general public the way Rand has? Philosophy in today's Universities is vast wasteland of irrelevant, hair-splitting minutiae written solely for other academics.

Rand is a breath of fresh air by comparison.

No-one's more opposed to the debating style and empty, vapid, insipid, sterile, dead-hand of Academia and modern philosophy than I am. Isn't that obvious with every word I write? 99% of what those guys say is illiberal gibberish, and the concommitantly illiberal way they say it -- merely aping true philosophic inquiry/speculation from an objective/scholarly perspective -- will also turn your brain to mush if you read it.

In oh-so-many ways, as Bill eloquently argues above, the Randian approach is to be preferred. Also the Nietzschean and Bertrand Russellean. This is why these three philosophers are popular, and still read by average students and people for fun and enlightenment.

Still...Ayn Rand is far and away the most polemical philosopher in the history of man. This has to be heavily noted. She writes like a prophet, not a true intellectual. This also has to be considered.

At the very least, Rand could and should have participated more (or at all) in magazines like Commentary, The American Scholar, City Journal, etc. -- where her big fan base and fun, interesting, challenging, important ideas would have virtually assured her of being welcomed, and her ideas treated seriously and herself approached respectfully. She also should have participated in more formal philosophic reviews, however boring.

She was very likely competent to do so. In the end, I think she made a severe mistake in not properly intellectually engaging with the world. It would have improved her thinking and presentation hugely, in my view, and made her far more popular and accepted. And it would have forstalled today's huge problem with Objectivist cultism.

Now, if she supposed she would have been rejected and humiliated above, or else that they wouldn't have argued "honesty," she could and should have quietly devastated them with two or three replies, and then declined to participate in that individual review or forum.

Instead...Ayn Rand only "debated" with lowly cult-style "followers" who were terrified to challenge her -- as well as with the wholly ignorant and unqualified.


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Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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I agree with Bill above. Rand is very clear and academics tend to be wordy and vague.

But I also agree with what Andre just said about the potential benefit if Rand had publicly engaged some popular philosophical publications and people. I know it is just speculation, but it is good speculation.

Michael


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Friday, November 25, 2005 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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There is no need for what if Rand "had publicly engaged some popular philosophical publications and people." Chris Sciabarra publishes a peer-reviewed academic journal. There is a steady stream of "engagement" with academic philosophy by ARI-affiliated scholars today; there has been for decades. As for "popular," in the days before Commentary and its ilk found Religion, there was plenty of that too. Back in his ARI days, David Kelley did brilliant polemical work in the pages of Barron's (very, very sadly unavailable on the web or in electronic media today.) Why Kelley stopped after Peikoff broke with him - that's something for Kelley to say.


(Edited by Adam Reed
on 11/25, 11:49am)


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Friday, November 25, 2005 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

There is never any need for a speculation on the past. It is merely interesting as an exercise in evaluation.

btw - I would love to see the Barron's articles of Kelley.

Michael



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Post 19

Friday, November 25, 2005 - 2:24pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

David Kelley's writings in Barron's are as good as Rand's best, and they were written for an intelligent, well-informed audience. If TOC wants to do something good for Objectivism, a compendium of David Kelley's articles would be a great place to start.


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