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Post 20

Monday, December 5, 2005 - 11:56pmSanction this postReply
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> ...Donald Norman's application of Gibson's psychological studies of affordances....

Adam, it sounds as if you know a great deal about cognitive and post-behavioral psychology and you assert that it has tremendous value. But I hope I can tell you without your taking offense (or defense, as it were) that your posting style can be frustrating:

I just wish you could write in simple English or at least define terms like "affordances" and similar phrases. I suspect it can be simply defined and I suspect no one knows what it means here...or what particular "application" you have in mind ... or what particular statement or passage of whoever Norman and Gibson are.

Post 21

Tuesday, December 6, 2005 - 12:06amSanction this postReply
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That's fair, but I just don't have the time now, and anyway it has been done. Read Donald Norman's "The Design/Psychology of Everyday Things" (the paperback and the hardback actually have different titles) for more about affordances and how they are used.


Post 22

Tuesday, December 6, 2005 - 7:47amSanction this postReply
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Gibson (1979) defined affordances as the opportunities for action for the observer provided by an environment, and proposed that observers perceive these affordances rather than abstract physical properties of objects and environments.
 
There, now, that wasn't so hard, was it? :)

Edit: Oh, here.... the link, one of many: http://www.hms.uq.edu.au/percept/afford.htm

I hadn't thought about affordances in a long time, IMHO opinion it is a great way to look at things if you're into metaphysics. It's...edgy.

 

(Edited by Rich Engle on 12/06, 7:54am)


Post 23

Tuesday, December 6, 2005 - 11:13amSanction this postReply
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Rich, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds as though 'affordances' is simply a way of saying opportunities provided by a situation or an environment. A seashore provides the opportunity of swimming or surfing or spectating. A party provides the opportunity for meeting people, having fun, dancing, eating, drinking. A conference provides all the opportunities of a party plus that or learning and possibly that of teaching or delivering a paper.

One of my dislikes of academic writing is making up a new technical term, a new form of jargon, when there already are words in truck driver English, as Peikoff called it. Concepts should not be multiplied beyond necessity and if 'affordance' means what you said and requires frequent use (which I am dubious about), then why wouldn't the phrase 'situational opportunities' suffice?

Another issue related to clear thinking [doesn't apply as much in this case] is to actively try to avoid giga-syllabic Latinate words for shorter, more direct words wherever possible. Keeps you closer to reality, less high up (unnecessarily) on the floating abstraction chain.

Phil

Post 24

Tuesday, December 6, 2005 - 11:27amSanction this postReply
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Phil,
I agree with your principle, but not sure it applies here. I read a great deal of J.J. Gibson many years ago (Ecological Approach To Visual Perception -- nothing to do with ecology, The Senses Considered As Perceptual Systems, etc). I'm not qualified to answer your question in this case, but I recall him being extremely clear, precise, and as far as I could tell, correct. He was not given to verbosity, nor to impressing his readers with 'big words'. When he made up a term, it was because he was trying to convey something new. There is also an excellent book commenting on Gibson's work called Reasons For Realism -- an anthology of good papers discussing foundational issues.

If you Google J.J. Gibson, on the second page there is a PDF entitled What Is An Affordance, if you want the short, but longer than mine, answer.

Jeff


Post 25

Tuesday, December 6, 2005 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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Adam, I appreciate the references to Smalltalk and Windowing, Norman and Gibson (I've found many links to the underlying work of Gibson, very interesting: here, here, and here; some of the reading I have found, however, is opaque and unconvincing). I'm not much for this sort of 'direct realism' (viz Gibson's theory of perception), it's just not engaged enough with neuroscience for my tastes.

I would agree with your other comment above if rewritten: "Much of today's software engineering, including object-oriented programming, has been strongly influenced by concepts arising from cognitive and developmental psychology."

As for Loftus, I am a strong supporter of her work (she is a colleague of Lilienfeld, and authors a chapter in the book I cited above. See also Lilienfeld's journal Scientific Review of Mental Health Practice). She is a giant on the psychological science stage, has helped knock down the excesses of the recovered memory movement, has helped hone police/juridicial practice, as you note, and has worked tirelessly against pseudoscience in psychology as well.

Among the 'proven' effects on memory that she works with are: priming, retroactive interference, the 'imagination effect,' source-monitoring, and so on. Good stuff. I recommend her "The Myth of Repressed Memory," and "Eyewitness Testimony."

Loftus told an amusing story at one of her numerous campus speeches. It illustrates that solid, questioning, skeptical, engaged tone of inquiry that she exemplifies:

Some evidence is so flimsy or fragile that it is not really
evidence at all. For example, as I and others have shown,
some kinds of eyewitness testimony are so fraught with the
probability of error that it is not really evidence at all,
and to consider it so can sometimes lead to grave
miscarriages of justice. So these questions about evidence
are valuable to be asking over and over in life.

There is a wonderful cartoon that appeared recently in
Parade magazine. And here's where we get to that cat. A
mother and her little son are sitting at the kitchen table.
Apparently, mom has just chided the son for excessive
curiosity. The son rises up and barks back:

"Curiosity killed what cat? What was it curious about? What
color was it? Did it have a name? How old was it?

I particularly like the last question. Maybe the cat was
very old, and died of old age, and curiosity had nothing to
do with it at all. So in closing, I remind you that speakers
at university graduations give advice freely:

Go forth. Always do right. Be true to yourself. Make
yourself necessary to somebody. Wear sunscreen.

It's all good but, my pick for the one advice morsel to
suggest to you is simple. Remember to ask the questions that
good . . .scientists have learned to ask: "What's the
evidence?" and then "What exactly is the evidence?" And if
you forget these questions, then just try asking for the
name or the age of the cat that curiosity killed.
(Full speech: 'Who is the Cat That Curiosity Killed?')



WSS


Post 26

Tuesday, December 6, 2005 - 11:48amSanction this postReply
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Jeff, that could very well be. Sometimes a new technical term -does- need to be coined, especially if it is an important concept that needs to be applied in a new or specialized area.

I just read the paper Rich linked to and Gibson does have an important idea:

i) As a 'relational' concept metaphysically, it falls into the same category as a universal (discussed in ITOE): It exists neither exclusively in outside reality nor in the perceiver. Rand spoke of a concept as a fact "as grasped by" a human mind. The opportunity-taken-advantage-of in an "affordance" has a similar metaphysical status.

ii) Unfortunately, the way it is classified on the website, Gibson seems to discuss this in the context of a subtopic in sense perception. It has far wider applicability - as his example of, for example, tool use suggests: this is in the conceptual realm not merely the perceptual.

iii) Objectivists interested in psychology need to take examples of 'as grasped by' metaphysical status and extend them beyond the case of universals as done in ITOE. There is a whole universe of such 'existents'.

And it is crucial to making psychology a science.

So, yes, Gibson's paper opens an important door. Let's walk through.

Phil

Post 27

Tuesday, December 6, 2005 - 11:52amSanction this postReply
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William,

You may also find useful David Kelley's analysis of the relation of Gibson's psychological work to a Randian perspective on perception. It's in "The Evidence of the Senses."


Post 28

Tuesday, December 6, 2005 - 12:02pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,
When and if you have time and interest, I strongly recommend either of Gibson's books I mentioned. I intend to re-read them myself soon. I remember them being excellent for helping to shore up foundations and fill in detail which ITOE was lacking. Anyone who could doubt the 'validity of the senses' after reading Gibson's book, really wants to.


Post 29

Tuesday, December 6, 2005 - 12:10pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, I expect I will, Jeff, having been impressed with the website piece.

But with the caveat that, for reasons I just mentioned, it is an issue with applicability far wider than the senses, or defending their validity.
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 12/06, 12:19pm)


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Post 30

Tuesday, December 6, 2005 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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Wow, this is like a totally civil and interesting thread. Eff all you guys! :)


rde
Chumming for trolls.


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Post 31

Tuesday, December 6, 2005 - 6:35pmSanction this postReply
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To MSK: Yes, I read Breaking Free too, but I no longer own a copy. It was a good book, as I recall, but I do not remember any strong theoretical component to it. Perhaps some themes of The Disowned Self were adumbrated in that book, but if I remember correctly it mostly dealt with the process of therapy and contained many descriptions of and transcripts from actual cases.

To address the topic of this thread: From AR's remarks, and I agree, a science is in its infancy when its basic principles have yet to be discovered. By this standard, psychology is no longer an infant, since it has two legs to stand on: Rand's identification of man's nature and the manner of his consciousness, and Branden's acceptance of this coupled with his identification of the means of bringing emotion and reason into harmony.

Those who accept Rand's morality, but find that they keep falling into the same errors, despite knowing better, need Branden's insights. They are like full-grown men with one leg.


Post 32

Tuesday, December 6, 2005 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney,

That was one fine post. Thank you.

Your description of Breaking Free is as I remember it. (Like I said, imagine opening that book and expecting something like Branden's more "moralistic" essays from before - or a new The Fountainhead or something exciting like that - then all those transcripts from therapy cases. That was like a bucket of cold water. I have fondness for that memory because I actually liked the book.)

I fully agree about NB's contribution to harmonizing emotion and reason.

I am currently looking for the elusive mind-brain connection. The more I look, the harder it is to find.

(Starting with a book called Neurophilosophy by Churchland - and it is fascinating, but really dry.)

Michael


Post 33

Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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Breaking Free is a joyous read. Maybe it's not the "best" book he ever wrote, but it's a very important book. I bet it's very dear to NB, I think he has indicated that at one time or another. It was one of those mile-marker pieces that come out of an author.

I can say this because he actually did go public with it at one point (after repeated lightings of fire under his ass, I recall, with me up front with the blowtorch), but he did write a novel. He chose not to publish it, and that sorely pissed me off. He said that he needed to write the book, but chose to not offer it to the world.

I argued endlessly with him about this, I was outraged! Ask Chris S. about it, we've discussed it off and on.

Subject? That was even funnier. I pressed him for the subject, and he said something like "It is about someone who falls down, then gets up again."

Further into my harrassment, I begged him for at least one line from it, because I dearly love the way he writes. He has a certain flow in his writing that I consider to be absolutely stunning. I don't have the line handy, but let's just say it wasn't real useful. I think it was three words. :)

I wish he would publish that damn thing. What a great summer read that would be. But it seems he will have nothing of it.

rde
This tape will self-destruct in 10 seconds.


Post 34

Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - 6:35pmSanction this postReply
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I understand that NB also wrote a play, but said "Not good enough" in explanation of why he did not try to get it produced.

Post 35

Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 8:18amSanction this postReply
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The title of NBs play is "At the Height" or "At the Heights" if I recall and he wrote it in the 70s.

--Brant


Post 36

Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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Well, given his background, we certainly can't argue with the man for having high standards. :)

Post 37

Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 11:12pmSanction this postReply
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     Question:

      Who is now ready to 'argue' a (to be redundant) rationaljustification that...

      'Psychology' is NOW a mature 'science'?

       If the latter can NOT be 'argued', then whether it's in its 'infancy', 'childhood', 'adolescence', or pre-maturity...is a bit pointless. It's clearly not at any 'stage' that consensually-focused (necessary, methinks) cultural-advancement can be yet made from.--- There are still too many inherently competitive influential schools-of-thinking that compete with each other for pressuring financiers/funders as to which 'direction' to expend finances/effort for supposed studies towards.

      'Psychology' is STILL in its infancy.

LLAP
J:D

P.S:    B-U-T....it's definitely out of its diaper (Freud) stage, for sure; indeed, it's now passing through it's 'NO' (Skinner; think about it) stage; but, that can be a very l-o-n-g stage, as anyone who's raised kids know. --- Think phylogeny mirroring establishedly-known ontogeny.

(Edited by John Dailey on 12/08, 11:23pm)


Post 38

Friday, December 9, 2005 - 8:21amSanction this postReply
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There is little or no science in psychology. We don't even refer to medicine as a "science" although there is a lot of science behind medicine.

--Brant


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Post 39

Friday, December 9, 2005 - 10:07amSanction this postReply
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Come on, Brant.

Of course there is the science of medicine. I just Googled the phrase in quotation marks and got 133,000 hits.

In psychology, you may not like the inroads and the research, but the police take it very seriously. Forensic psychology is a growing and very practical science, for example.

I'll leave discussion of the other areas for other people and places because for some reason, I think your underlying focus is not the field, but certain psychologists.

Michael


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