About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Forward one pageLast Page


Post 80

Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 6:21pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed, "pimp walk" - that's too funny!

I agree about other animals not being creative (but I would use the word 'reflex' or associative learning, or something other than 'instinct' which is tied up with innate knowledge).

Technology is evidence of our creativity - it never stops. We keep improving and changing.

Jordan agrees to a point. He says, "Humans create loads of art; we pass tons of info from generation to generation. We learn extensively in triangular fashion, where both teacher and student can focus on a third object. We are very technologically savvy. All these lovelies are products of our mental prowess..."

Notice that this transmission of knowledge from person to person and from generation to generation and the nature of technologies' evolution imply building upon what a person knows and it is additive. Like Ed points out, what other animals do one generation is repeated next generation - no significant changes and that is a significant difference.

It means that our cultural evolution - which arises out of our nature - is Lamarkian - and that's a difference in degree.

Jordan said, "...research shows that many animals can and do mentally model reality." I don't disagree with this, but I could design a vacuum cleaner that modeled the reality of the room it cleaned and it would not be very sophisticated. But if I came up with a design where the vacuum cleaner could imagine an improved vacuum cleaner or imagine a better mechanism for vacuuming... that would have people astounded! Other animals can't model anything but reality - we constantly create new versions of the present reality that become the new reality.

There is a way that a dog chooses - that is it acts to move to the left or to the right of an obstacle in its way. But that is not volition or choice in the way that I understand it for humans. This is a difference of degree, but one where the degree is great enough to be seen as a different kind of thing.

We have talked about categories. I would say that an animal can have something that it is reasonable to call a category ("yummy treats"). But I don't believe that an animal can have abstractions as such - for example an abstraction of abstractions - like "justice." Again, it is a difference of degree, but a degree that moves into new territory.



Post 81

Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 10:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Ed & Steve,

No big beef here about both your schpiels on degree versus kind. My point was just that animals do a lot of what humans do, just to a severely limited degree.

Point of clarification: Are you guys saying that *all* animal behavior is merely reflexive? Do you see it all just as you would a leg-jerk after the mallet hits the knee?

Jordan



Post 82

Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 10:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I agree with Ed that most other animals are not aware of their capacities to perceive and respond, or even are aware that they're learning/modifying their behavior. I think that sort of insight is the result of natural selection in which animals that can "turn inward" (or to self-determine/modify) will be able to learn better about their reactions to their environment. In some ways, it could be argued then that volition is as much an evolutionary adaptation as any physical trait.




Post 83

Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
More evidence that humans have a different kind of cognition than animals do -- rather than just a different degree of the same kind of cognition:
============================================
Hist Philos Life Sci. 2003;25(2):211-41.
The dual biological identity of human beings and the naturalization of morality.
Azzone GF.
Department of Experimental Biomedical Sciences, University of Padua, Padua, Italy.


The last two centuries have been the centuries of the discovery of the cell evolution: in the XIX century of the germinal cells and in the XX century of two groups of somatic cells, namely those of the brain-mind and of the immune systems. Since most cells do not behave in this way, the evolutionary character of the brain-mind and of the immune systems renders human beings formed by t wo different groups of somatic cells, one with a deterministic and another with an indeterministic (say Darwinian) behavior. An inherent consequence is that of the generation, during ontogenesis, of a dual biological identity.
 
The concept of the dual biological identity may be used to explain the Kantian concept of the two metaphysical worlds, namely of the causal necessity and of the free will (Azzone, 2001). Two concepts, namely those of complex adaptive systems (CAS) and of emergence (Holland, 2002), are useful tools for understanding the mechanisms of adaptation and of evolution.

 
The concept of complex adaptive systems indicates that living organisms contain series of stratified components, denoted as building blocks, forming stratified layers of increasing complexity. The concept of emergence implies the use of repeating patterns and of building blocks for the generation of structures of increasing levels of complexity, structures capable of exchanging communications both in the top-down and in the bottom-up direction.
 
Against the concept of emergence it has been argued that nothing can produce something which is really new and endowed of causal efficacy. The defence of the concept of emergence is based on two arguments. The first is the interpretation of the variation-selection mechanism as a process of generation of information and of optimization of free energy dissipation in accord with the second principle of thermodynamics. The second is the objective evidence of the cosmological evolution from the Big Bang to the human mind and its products.
 
Darwin has defended the concept of the continuity of evolution. However evolution should be considered as continuous when there is no increase of information and as discontinuous when there is generation of new information. Examples of such generation of information are the acquisition of the innate structures for language and the transition from absence to presence of morality. There are several discontinuity thresholds during both phylogenesis and ontogenesis.
 
Morality is a relational property dependent on the interactions of human beings with the environment. Piaget and Kohlberg have shown that the generation of morality during childhood occurs through several stages and is accompanied by reorganization of the child mental organization. The children respect the conventions in the first stage and gradually generate their autonomous morality.
 
The transition from absence to presence of morality, a major adaptive process, then, not only has occurred during phylogenesis but it occurs again in every human being during ontogenesis.
 
The religious faith does not provide a logical justification of the moral rules (Ayala, 1987) but rather a psychological and anthropological justification of two fundamental needs of human beings: that of rendering Nature an understandable entity, and that of increasing the cooperation among members of the human societies.
 
The positive effects of the altruistic genes in the animal societies are in accord with the positive effects of morality for the survival and development of the human societies.
============================================
Recap:
The evolution of humans from lower animals is discontinuous because of the generation of new information like language and morality -- rather than the mere re-structuring of old information, as is true of the evolution of all other animals. Humans aren't "just" smarter animals.


============================================
Med Sci (Paris). 2006 Jun-Jul;22(6-7):659-63.
[Survival of the fattest: the key to human brain evolution]
[Article in French]
Cunnane SC.
Centre de recherche sur le vieillissement, Département de médecine, physiologie et biophysiques, Faculté de médecine et sciences de la santé, Université de Sherbrooke, 1036, Belvédère Sud, Sherbrooke, Québec, J1H 4C4, Canada. stephen.cunnane@usherbrooke.ca


The circumstances of human brain evolution are of central importance to accounting for human origins, yet are still poorly understood. Human evolution is usually portrayed as having occurred in a hot, dry climate in East Africa where the earliest human ancestors became bipedal and evolved tool-making skills and language while struggling to survive in a wooded or savannah environment.
 
At least three points need to be recognised when constructing concepts of human brain evolution :
 
(1) The human brain cannot develop normally without a reliable supply of several nutrients, notably docosahexaenoic acid, iodine and iron. (2) At term, the human fetus has about 13 % of body weight as fat, a key form of energy insurance supporting brain development that is not found in other primates. (3) The genome of humans and chimpanzees is <1 % different, so if they both evolved in essentially the same habitat, how did the human brain become so much larger, and how was its present-day nutritional vulnerability circumvented during 5-6 million years of hominid evolution?
 
The abundant presence of fish bones and shellfish remains in many African hominid fossil sites dating to 2 million years ago implies human ancestors commonly inhabited the shores, but this point is usually overlooked in conceptualizing how the human brain evolved. Shellfish, fish and shore-based animals and plants are the richest dietary sources of the key nutrients needed by the brain. Whether on the shores of lakes, marshes, rivers or the sea, the consumption of most shore-based foods requires no specialized skills or tools.
 
The presence of key brain nutrients and a rich energy supply in shore-based foods would have provided the essential metabolic and nutritional support needed to gradually expand the hominid brain. Abundant availability of these foods also provided the time needed to develop and refine proto-human attributes that subsequently formed the basis of language, culture, tool making and hunting.
 
The presence of body fat in human babies appears to be the product of a long period of sedentary, shore-based existence by the line of hominids destined to become humans, and became the unique solution to insuring a back-up fuel supply for the expanding hominid brain. Hence, survival of the fattest (babies) was the key to human brain evolution.
============================================
Recap:
Humans have a gut about half as large, and a brain about four times larger than our last common ancestor did (common ancestor with chimps and bonobos). During that time, nutritional environments changed to the point that physiology of the gut and the brain made a trade-off (we got littler guts and bigger brains than any other primate).
 
Big guts preclude the existence of big brains via nutrition science (fatty acids) and organ competition for digestible energy. Littler guts were a requirement for bigger and better thinking. When you've got a little gut, then you've got to eat and/or be born with baby fat -- so that your brain can develop differently than any other animal's brain ever could (because of their big guts).

This difference in the degree of gut size produces a discontinuous difference in brain power between humans an animals.

Ed



Post 84

Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Ed,

My brain is biffer than Palin's. Am I different in kind from her? :-)

Anyway, the articles you mentioned don't change the proposition that animals can do lots of what humans do -- even with their relatively small brains -- just to a severely limited degree.

Jordan


Post 85

Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 4:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan,

Really... I want to see those museums of art created by other animals (I understand they would only exist on a much smaller degree). Or the libraries of book (but, again, only to a much smaller degree). And while we are at it where do the keep their universities (of course far fewer and much less sophisticated - you know, to a lesser degree).

And, how far behind us are they in the development of technology. I don't expect they have computers, not even real primitive ones, but do any of them have a calculator? How about an abacus? Counting on their toes and pushing stones in line for each count of ten?



Post 86

Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan,

You were just being funny but the point is that the continuous, independent variable of gut size leads to the discrete, dependent variable of brain size. In that sense, if you had intestines twice as long as Sarah Palin, then I'd question your cognition-type -- and ask you if you liked to eat bananas and climb trees (not that there's anything wrong with that!).

:-)


You say that the articles I "mentioned don't change the proposition that animals can do lots of what humans do." My retort is to say back to you that the articles you mentioned don't prove that animals mentally do what we do, but only seem to.

We are having a good go-around and I like that. One thing I've learned is that you are remarkably-resistant to both classical (feed-forward; Pavlovian) conditioning and operant (feed-back) conditioning. I know of no non-human animal that is remarkably-resistant to conditioning in those two ways. No non-human.

Don't you think that that's relevant here?

Ed


Post 87

Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 7:54pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Steve,

Funny. Okay sure. Animals don't make museums, books, or computers. But if we look at the mental activities needed to make those products, then we'll likely find traces of them, whatever they are, in animals. And if we don't, then okay. The only traces that matter heree are those that deal with basic concept-formation.

Hi Ed,

Remember that my point with those other studies was just to provide evidence of animal concept formation, that one mental ability, and nothing else. The studies say nothing of the totality of an animal's mental prowess. And I readily agree that animal physiologies differ. Not a big deal. What matters is that the aforementioned empirics bear out that there's still some physiological overlap, and that overlap, at least for some animals, indicates at least a basic ability to form concepts.

Now per conditioning: First, I would disagree that humans are more resistant to conditioning than are animals; or at least, conditioning theory predicts a good chunk of human behavior reasonably well, which is why it's such a helpful component of pedagogy. But let me follow that up quickly with a second point:  Conditioning is typically relegated to studies of outward behavior, not to studies of internal mental processes, which is why conditioning is only peripherally helpful in appreciating concept-formation. 

Jordan


Post 88

Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 9:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan,

Conditioning is typically relegated to studies of outward behavior, not to studies of internal mental processes, which is why conditioning is only peripherally helpful in appreciating concept-formation. 
Which is why conditioning is a less-than-perfectly-controlled-for confounder in studies proclaiming to have discovered evidence of concept-formation in animals.

You can condition an animal to repeat behavior that mimics the behavior humans would make by forming concepts.

Doesn't that bother you?

Ed


Post 89

Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Ed,
You can condition an animal to repeat behavior that mimics the behavior humans would make by forming concepts.
I don't think so. It used to be that way, like with Clever Hans, but researchers are well aware of the risk of conditioned mimicry and have controlled for it rather well. But to answer your question, I am more skeptical of tests that could well be explained by conditioned mimicry.

Jordan


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 90

Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 10:20amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan,

Thanks for (re-)calling my attention to Clever Hans. I Wiki-ed Clever Hans and found a Wiki-link to Rico the dog -- who was studied in a manner specifically designed to neutralize the "Clever Hans Effect" of animal cognition studies. I found this:

Rico retrieved an average of 37 (out of 40) items correctly. Rico could also remember items' names for four weeks after his last exposure.

Kaminski eliminated the Clever Hans effect using a strict protocol: each of the 200 items whose names Rico knew was randomly assigned to one of 20 sets of 10 items. While the owner waited with the dog in a separate room, the experimenter arranged a set of items in the experimental room and then joined the owner and the dog. Next, the experimenter instructed the owner to request that the dog bring two randomly chosen items (one after the other) from the adjacent room.

Rico's vocabulary was thus broadly comparable to that of language-trained apes, dolphins, sea lions, and parrots.

Rico also responded correctly to a new word with a single exposure, apparently using a canine equivalent of the fast mapping mechanism used by humans. Subject to the anti-Clever Hansing protocols above, a new object was placed alongside seven familiar objects. Rico was told to retrieve the new object, using a word that he had never heard before. Not only could Rico correctly retrieve the object, he also responded correctly to the name of the new object, presumably using a process of elimination.

Nature columnist Paul Bloom of Yale University, a scientist specializing in children's acquisition of semantics and language, commented on the study, saying that "for psychologists, dogs may be the new chimpanzees." He also had reservations, pointing out that children learn new words in many ways, while Rico learns only through rewards for successfully fetching an object.
My first contention with this is that Rico would remember names for perceived objects (for four weeks or so). There are two explanations for that:

(1) Rico formed "temporary" concepts of the objects
(2) Rico used only sense-perception, memory, and crude association

I find the second explanation most rationally-compelling.

The part about Rico getting the new object harkens back to the Sesame Street skit: "[catchy jingle] One of these things is not like the other ... which one could it be?" The problem I have with interpreting Rico's performance with the notion that he formed a concept of that single item to which he'd never been exposed is that it's a bare particular -- i.e., it's a proper noun. We bring proper nouns to mind by means of the perceptual power of memory -- not by means of our conceptual powers of awareness.

Do you disagree with my interpretation of this Rico-research?

Ed


Post 91

Monday, October 13, 2008 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Ed,

I agree with your take on Rico. He just associated sound with object. He did this very well. And in the game "which of these is not like the other," he exhibited terrific skills of differentiation. But not integration. Of course, we need evidence of integration before we conclude that Rico forms concepts.

I would also take issue with researchers discussing Rico's "vocabulary." The tests do not indicate that he comprehends words, only that he associates the sounds of the words with objects.  

Jordan


Post 92

Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 4:13amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan,

I appreciate your equanimity. Considering that you can agree with the interpretation I gave for the results of the Rico investigations, can you offer more examples -- or just one other example -- of research that might better support your earlier statements regarding animal concepts?

If we start with explicit empirical evidence (like we did with Rico) and then try to explain results, then we will most carefully see if animal concepts are required to explain animal behavior.

Ed


Post 93

Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 11:44amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Ed,

Well, there's always Herrnstein's pigeons. There's tons of pigeon cognition research. Below is an abstract on onesuch study from back in the 1970s.  Please note, I haven't actually read the study; but the abstract looks apt, and the study is available online:

Abstract:

Pigeons were trained to discriminate the presence of one or more human forms in displays projected on a panel above the response key. This task was mastered, although imperfectly, with successive and with simultaneous presentations of positive and negative instances. The course of acquisition of the discrimination was similar for the two training procedures. Animals were able to transfer the discrimination from the successive to the simultaneous situation. Various tests were carried out to control for artifactual cues on which the discrimination might have been based. The discrimination was maintained when new displays were presented, when reinforcement was omitted, and when displays were inverted 180°. Animals were also able to discriminate between pairs of displays that were identical, except that one member of the pair contained a human form. The research extends the techniques used by Herrnstein and Loveland (1964), and confirms their finding that pigeons can master the concept of “person-present” in a visual display.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1333680

Jordan


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 94

Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 4:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan,

Thanks for the pigeon study. I have identified some discussion points. Here is a quote from the study from page 389:

Training and test ratios, while consistently above 0.50, did not reach the high levels normally obtained with pigeons on simple visual discriminations of form, color, etc. Before the first test, the mean discrimination ratio was 0.65 in both experiments. While this ratio actually reflects a considerable difference in response rates to the positive and negative stimuli (about 2:1 for 0.65), it does not approach the level of 10% errors that is frequently set for pigeons as a criterion for visual discrimination problems.
To be on the same page, what they're saying about the "level of 10% errors that is frequently set ..." is that, if you train a pigeon to discriminate one form from another (such as a triangle from a circle), or one color from another (e.g., red from blue), then they'll get it right at least 90% of the time -- or, with up to 10% error.

However, these four pigeons were only able to "get the referent right" about 66%, or two-thirds, of the time. Imagine if every third time your toddler saw another dog it didn't say "doggie!" but, instead, looked at the new creature in complete wonder.

Now, getting the referent right two-thirds of the time is not necessarily a deal breaker ... 

It might not be so bad if the pigeons passed over some of the pictures with humans -- but passed over almost all of the pictures without humans. If that had been the case, then we could just say that the pigeons weren't concentrating consistently -- but when they were, they chose the pictures with humans. We would be able to explain-away those times they passed over pictures with humans by saying that they weren't paying attention at those times. And at least we could say that they only very rarely choose pictures without the humans. But that is not what happened here.

Instead of just picking some or most of the pictures with humans and picking very little of the pictures without -- the two-thirds discrimination ratio was kept low because the pigeons were picking too many pictures without humans. These pigeons may have been picking 80-95% of all of the pictures with humans in them, but they were also picking 25-35% of all of the pictures without any humans in them (giving the "hit" ratio of 64-66%).

Imagine asking your three year-old if there's a dog in a picture -- with 100 different pictures: 50 of them with dogs, 50 without. The three year-old correctly identifies pictures with dogs in them 47 out of 50 times -- but also says that there's a dog in 14 of the 50 pictures without dogs! That would be about a 66% discrimination ratio, but here's the point:

Would you say that your three year-old formed a correct concept?

Ed


Post 95

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Ed,
Would you say that your three year-old formed a correct concept?
Sure. The percentages are strong enough to be statistically significant; they tell us that the results are not random. With the error percentages, I'd say the subject is over-eager, lacking in self-restraint, unfocused, or confused or forgetful as to the goal of the task at hand.

Jordan


Post 96

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan,

I disagree. The lack of concentration explanation would work better if the opposite was to get a two-thirds discrimination ratio were found. Instead, I'd look to "picture-complexity" to explain the false-positives here (as the authors warned might be the case).

Ed


Post 97

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Who knows why the pigeons blew it? The point is that they got it right to a statistically significant degree. The results weren't random. They beat the wheel of fortune.

*Jordan*

Post 98

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes, Jordan, they weren't random.

A picture-complexity explanation integrates this. In the discussion section, the authors admit that, statistically, the pictures with humans in them were more complex -- and that that's a potential confounder when you are trying to get to the conclusion that the birds had formed a concept of "human."

Ed


Post 99

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 9:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The matched pairs test largely controlled for the complexity-picture confounder.

Jordan

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.