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Post 40

Monday, July 26 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
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> the Byzantine Empire..were the world's sole custodians of the ancient philosophical, historical and artistic texts which included those of Aristotle. [John, post #37]

No they weren't:

"To their amazement, Spain's new masters [when they conquered the muslim civilization there] found Arabic translations of books that Europeans had long talked about but never read...Ptolemy...Galen's "On the Art of Healing"..Euclid's Elements...Archimedes' treatises on mathematical engineering...their new subjects were in possession of the vast corpus of Aristotle's works..." ["Aristotle's Children", Rubenstein, p. 16]




(Edited by Philip Coates on 7/26, 11:47am)




Post 41

Monday, July 26 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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More context needed. Which event and time period is he referring to? Because it's simply not true that the Byzantines, who were Europeans, had not kept and read the works of Aristotle. The only reason those texts survived is because the Byzantine Empire was simply an extension of the older Pagan Roman Empire. So those writings were kept and copied throughout the centuries. Unless Rubenstein thinks Eastern Europeans aren't European, I don't understand what he's talking about. It's certainly true Western Europe, which includes Spain, was in the dark so to speak with these texts. This however is not true with the Eastern Roman Empire.

Think about it for one second. These Muslims came many centuries after these ancient texts were written. How did they come across them?



(Edited by John Armaos on 7/26, 12:38pm)




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Post 42

Monday, July 26 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
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John A.,

Phil pounced on your using "sole" in post #37, giving a counterexample. It isn't the only counterexample either. See Avicenna, a Persian, and thus -- as best I can tell -- not a resident of the Byzantine Empire.

I finished reading Aristotle's Children last week. The story of the loss and recovery of Aristotle's works is often oversimplified. For example, a work might be regarded as "lost" because it was not available in a language the local people could read, many of whom were not literate anyway. Also, much of the historical period you guys refer to was before the printing press was invented.

Carry on, guys.

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 7/26, 1:24pm)




Post 43

Monday, July 26 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin that's silly. I still stand my use of the word "sole", because for a period of time spanning centuries, they were the sole custodians of those texts. That word "sole" should not be be construed to mean something ad infinitum. Avicenna dates to the 11th century I believe? We're talking more than a millennium already after Aristotle. So what is that a counterexample to exactly?

And yes, this was before the printing press. So these texts were hand copied through out the centuries, originally as scrolls and then into books. It's not like these Muslims stumbled across some cave in the desert and found a library of dead-sea-scrolls-like artifacts and thought to themselves "hey, who's this Aristotle guy?". They were exposed to his writing through their interaction with the Byzantine Christians.


(Edited by John Armaos on 7/26, 2:46pm)




Post 44

Monday, July 26 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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John, we are in agreement in large part on this:

The religion is barbaric with death-worshiping values.

Large portions of the Quran is like that, agreed, as is significant portions of Christianity, in particular the Christian emphasis on altruistic sacrifice, which is (quite literally) death-worshiping, in that Christians worship the brutal death (and alleged resurrection) of a peasant philosopher.

And the Old Testament is arguably just as brutal and barbaric as the Quran.

That some or many (whatever portion it is) are not barbaric death-worshiping Muslims are simply being traitorous to their own self-professed identity as a Muslim.

Feel free to substitute Christian for Muslim here, too.

I agree that Islam is more violent and death-worshiping than Christianity, but it is a matter of degree, not of kind.



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Post 45

Monday, July 26 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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Oh believe me Jim, I'm not singling out just Islam here. Christianity is a death-worshiping religion as well. The difference here is that Islam largely values conquest, brutality and religious conversion through force, Christianity elevated weakness, pacifism and humility as a virtue. They both are terrible.



Post 46

Monday, July 26 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
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John A.:
 I still stand my use of the word "sole", because for a period of time spanning centuries, they were the sole custodians of those texts.
Your standing by it proves nothing. Where is your proof? How about some citations from reputable scholars? What centuries exactly?

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 7/26, 4:27pm)




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Post 47

Monday, July 26 - 5:39pmSanction this postReply
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Science.2C_medicine.2C_law

The writings of Classical antiquity never ceased to be cultivated in Byzantium. Therefore, Byzantine science was in every period closely connected with ancient philosophy, and metaphysics.[112]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Library_of_Constantinople

The Imperial Library of Constantinople, in the capital city of the Byzantine Empire, was the last of the great libraries of the ancient world. Long after the destruction of the Great Library of Alexandria and the other ancient libraries, it preserved the knowledge of the ancient Greeks and Romans for almost 1,000 years, until it was mostly destroyed during the Fourth Crusade in 1204.


"In many cases Photius' summaries give precious information about works now lost or preserved only in part. He also compiled a lexicon of vocabulary suitable for use by ambitious authors. In the next generation Arethas, who was to become Archbishop of Caesarea (d. after 932), commissioned manuscripts, added learned notes (scholia) of his own and was a prolific author; we still have some of his manuscripts, including an important manuscript containing twenty-four of the dialogues of Plato and another of Aristotle's Organon" The Byzantines
By Averil Cameron page 137

"Michael Choniates, archbishop of Athens in the 12th century, brought his books with him from Constantinople. He was unimpressed by the cultural resources of Athens, and his correspondence often concerns exchanges or acquisitions of books; among his library were copies of works by Euclid, Galen, Thucydides and Nicander, and even the Hellenistic poet Callimachus. In the twelth and thirteenth centuries Byzantine scholars like Tzetzes and Planoudes collected and edited classical texts, and in the last half-century of Byzantium Italian collectors sought out the Greek manuscripts that had been preserved by the Byzantine bibliophile tradition." Page 137



I'm just curious Merlin, did you have some other explanation in mind that accounted for how these books survived from antiquity? And how they came across Islamic scholars centuries later? When do you think these Islamic scholars started reading Aristotle? Surely you must have thought those books were preserved somehow? Or did you just think these Islamic scholars stumbled across some secret stash of ancient books in a cave?



Post 48

Monday, July 26 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn that was a very interesting video, thank you for posting it.



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Post 49

Monday, July 26 - 6:15pmSanction this postReply
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I second John's comments, Glenn. Thanks for the video.

Oh, and if a Christian father said that he would have his daughter murdered if she ceased being a Christian, I would be utterly shocked. But if a Muslim father said, as he was reported to have said in the video, that he would have his daughter murdered if she ceased being a Muslim, I would not be the least surprised.

That ought to tell you something about the relative barbarity of the two religions, as they are practiced TODAY!



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Post 50

Monday, July 26 - 6:21pmSanction this postReply
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Reply to post 47.
Again, what centuries exactly?
Your citations don't prove "sole".
The subtitle of Aristotle's Children is How Christians, Muslims, and Jews Rediscovered Ancient wisdom and Illuminated the Middle Ages.
Some who the title refers to are:
- Averroes, Muslim but born and lived in Spain
- Avicenna, a Persian Muslim
- Maimonides, Jewish and born and lived in Spain
What you need to prove are these guys had access to Aristotle's works only because of Byzantine Christians (emphasis on both words). That is your still unproven assertion.

Islamic world
In the Abbasid Empire, many foreign works were translated into Arabic, large libraries were constructed, and scholars were welcomed.[3] Under the caliphs Al-Ma'mun and his son Harun al-Rashid, the House of Wisdom in Baghdad flourished. Christian scholar Hunayn ibn Ishaq (809-873) was placed in charge of the translation work by the caliph. In his lifetime, Ishaq translated 116 writings, including works by Plato and Aristotle, into Syriac and Arabic.[4][5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotelianism#Islamic_world
Note it says Hunayn ibn Ishaq was in the Abbasid Empire, not the Byzantine Empire.
Time and again, they [Aristotle's works] fade from sight in one civilization only to reappear centuries later in another, often with the most extraordinary impact. "Lost" in Greece, they are later "found" in Rome. Neglected by Byzantine Christians, they inspire a great burst of philosophic creativity in the Islamic world. Unread for centuries in the Latin West, their rediscovery in medieval Spain triggers an intellectual revolution in Europe. (Aristotle's Children, p. 39-40; my bold).



(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 7/26, 7:40pm)




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Post 51

Monday, July 26 - 7:54pmSanction this postReply
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I don't understand, did you read my citations? I'll ask again. WHEN do you think Islamic scholars started reading Aristotle? WHERE do you think they came across these texts? WHO had kept them? If you expect me to take you seriously that I'm not proving myself here, despite the sources I gave you showing who kept these texts, then please by all means provide the time line from when Aristotle wrote his works to how they came into contact with Muslim scholars? We are talking about almost a millennium here, please provide proof someone other than the Byzantines were keeping these books all those centuries long before the Muslims came into contact with them. We know that the Byzantines (which is another name for the Eastern Roman Empire) didn't fall until the 15th century, we know that the Western half of the empire fell to constant barbarian invasions and lost their knowledge of the classical world. We are talking about Greek and Roman texts, obviously the only empire left standing that had the resources and the stability to keep a library of these texts and had the direct historical link to them were the Byzantines. And I even cited you the Library of Constantinople. And yet you still persist in claiming I haven't made my case!

It's really quite simple and easy for you to prove me wrong. All you have to do is give me the proof that someone other than the Byzantines had custodian of these texts before Islamic scholars came into contact with them. It's really that simple.

You are aware Islam didn't even come to be a religion until the 7th century right?

Again, what centuries exactly?


It's difficult to say exactly, but I can give an approximation. It would be between the time period of the fall of the Western Roman Empire to when Islamic scholars came into contact with these ancient texts. I'd say from the 5th century to the 9th century at minimum. But it could be even earlier than 5th century, the loss of the knowledge of antiquity in the Western Roman Empire was a gradual thing. It wasn't like in just one day all of that knowledge was lost. Nor was it the case all of a sudden in one day all of the knowledge of the classics was absorbed by the Caliphates and their scholars. But we do know how they came into contact with them, we do know these two cultures were at war with each other for centuries, and naturally knowledge of the other was passed back and forth.


- Averroes, Muslim but born in Spain


Averroes - 1126 – December 10, 1198

- Avicenna, a Persian Muslim


Avicenna c. 980 - 1037

- Maimonides, Jewish and born in Spain


1135, December 12, 1204



Note it says Hunayn ibn Ishaq was in the Abbasid Empire, not the Byzantine Empire.


The problem Merlin is that you're taking whatever snippets you're finding of instances of scholars citing Aristotle and completely ignoring not only the chronological order of these scholars but how these texts were even made to be available for foreign consumption. Hunayn ibn Ishaq learned Greek so that he could translate these works for the Caliphate. Well where did he learn Greek? Who spoke Greek? Why did he need to learn Greek to make these translations? The Byzantines spoke Greek. Greek was the official language of the Eastern Roman Empire. These texts were in Greek because they were kept by a Greek-speaking empire! According to wikipeida:

"he traveled to Alexandria and/or Byzantium to master Greek language. In his return to Baghdad, Hunayn displayed his newly-acquired skills by reciting the works of Homer and Galen. In awe, ibn Masawayh reconciled with Hunayn, and the two started to work cooperatively.[6]" "he translated some of Plato’s and Aristotle’s works and the commentaries of ancient Greeks." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunayn_ibn_Ishaq


The first Christian territories Muslims began to conquer were Byzantine territories. Syria, Asia Minor, Judea, Egypt, all once under the domain of the Romans and eventually lost to the Muslims. That is how they came into contact with these texts.

"The Byzantine–Arab Wars were a series of wars between the Arab Caliphates and the East Roman or Byzantine Empire between the 7th and 12th centuries AD. These started during the initial Muslim conquests under the Rashidun and Umayyad caliphs and continued in the form of an enduring border tussle until the beginning of the Crusades. As a result, the Byzantines (the Romans or "Rűm" in Muslim historical chronicles), saw an extensive loss of territory.

The initial conflict lasted from 634 to 718, ending with the Second Arab Siege of Constantinople that halted the rapid expansion of the Arab Empire into Anatolia. Conflicts however continued between the 800s and 1169. The occupation of southern Italian territories by the Abbassid forces in the 9th and 10th centuries were not as successful as in Sicily. However, under the Macedonian dynasty, the Byzantines recaptured territory in the Levant with the Byzantines armies' advance even threatening Jerusalem to the south. The Emirate of Aleppo and its neighbours became vassals of the Byzantines in the east, where the greatest threat was the Egyptian Fatimid kingdom, until the rise of the Seljuk dynasty reversed all gains and pushed Abbassid territorial gains deep into Anatolia. This resulted in the Byzantine emperor Alexius I Comnenus' request for military aid from Pope Urban II at the Council of Piacenza; one of the events often attributed as precursors to the First Crusade." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Arab_Wars

Again, unless you think they stumbled across some cave of these texts, unless you can show me someone other than the Byzantines were holding on to these texts for a millennium (tell me the library! tell me the scholars who passed them down from generation to generation!), unless you can prove to me the historians are simply lying there was a Library of Constantinople with a collection of Greek and Roman texts from antiquity, then I have no reason to take any of your objections seriously.

Time and again, they [Aristotle's works] fade from sight in one civilization only to reappear centuries later in another, often with the most extraordinary impact. "Lost" in Greece, they are later "found" in Rome.


Ah, more quotes from Rubenstein. The same guy that thinks the Byzantines aren't European.

I can only imagine Rubenstein means with the fall of the Byzantine empire the fleeing Greek scholars took copies of those texts with them to Italy. They never lost them, it's that the Western Europeans lost them and "found" them when these Roman Greeks showed up with these books. I'm sure some of these Western powers had some contact with Aristotle through Arabic translations, but these Arabic translations were made from copies of the Greek copies in Byzantium.

Neglected by Byzantine Christians, they inspire a great burst of philosophic creativity in the Islamic world.


Neglected here doesn't negate the proposition they were the sole custodians of those texts up until the Muslim scholars came across them. It just means they didn't always place a huge importance on Aristotle, they seemed to place more of an importance on Plato. So I question the use of "neglect" here. They did keep the books, and subsequently towards the end of the Byzantime empire Aristotle saw a resurgence in popularity. I cited you a source of Photius in the 10th century that wrote notes on one of Aristotle's dialogues. Before any of those Islamic scholars you even listed talked about Aristotle.

Unread for centuries in the Latin West,


Yes the Latin West. Not the Greek East.

...their rediscovery in medieval Spain triggers an intellectual revolution in Europe.


Their rediscovery in medieval Spain? We're probably talking 12th century here right? So what happened to those Eastern Europeans talking about him for the past few centuries before medieval Spain started talking about him? Oh that's right, Eastern Europeans according to Rubenstein aren't European.





(Edited by John Armaos on 7/26, 8:53pm)




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Post 52

Tuesday, July 27 - 7:04amSanction this postReply
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John A., why do you feel the need to lace your responses with insulting remarks? You seem to take offense whenever anybody merely doubts, let alone disagrees with, you.

Thanks anyway for the added info.

You quoted Wikipedia about how Hunayn ibn Ishaq learned Greek. How does that prove that the Aristotelian texts he translated came from the Library of Constantinople or even the Byzantine Empire?

How does Andronicus of Rhodes fit in your narrative?
When the Philosopher dies, the story goes, he left all his writing to his best friend and brightest student, Theophrastus ... Theophrastus passed away, bequeathing his personal library, including Aristotle's manuscripts, to his nephew Neleus ... Neleus hid the manuscripts in a cellar. ... Around 70 B.C.E., however, the hundreds of tattered parchments secreted in Neleus's cellar were rediscovered by accident. The entire collection was brought to Athens, where a few Peripatetic philosophers still lectured ... They passed the manuscripts on to Andronicus of Rhodes ... Over the course of several years, Andronicus patched the writings together, classifying and collating (and perhaps editing) them. Copies were made and distributed. (Aristotle's Children, p. 38-39).
Andronicus was in Rome when he got the manuscripts (link). Are you saying all those originals and copies ended up in the Library of Constantinople? Do you believe Andronicus of Rhodes affords no grounds whatever for questioning your saying the Byzantine Christians were the sole custodians of Aristotle's writing?

This might be my last post about this topic. Who the custodians were is not important enough to me to outweigh the hassle.




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Post 53

Tuesday, July 27 - 8:16amSanction this postReply
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Merlin, perhaps my frustration comes from not realizing you aren't actually that knowledgeable of the overall major events that happened in Europe from antiquity through to the middle ages, and so your out-of-context objections seemed nonsensical. I'm not talking about minutia of historical detail but just the overall major shifts and changes. I thought you knew the Roman Empire had split it two empires by Diocletian, that historians have dubbed the Eastern Roman Empire the "Byzantine" Empire. That Emperor Constantine had shifted the political, cultural and scholarly center of the Roman Empire from Rome to Constantinople (formerly named Byzantium). That the Western Roman Empire in 480 AD? (I believe) fell, leaving only the Eastern Empire standing. We are talking about the Greco-Roman culture, so obviously, the people who wrote these texts, i.e. Greek and Romans would have their texts found in their own civilization.

But I also feel if you are going to ask for proof of the Byzantine empire for a time-being were the sole custodians of these works, you ought to be prepared to offer an explanation of how these works were preserved. You can't just shoot down an explanation and offer nothing else in its place. And you're not going to find proof like an ancient plaque lying around somewhere in Istanbul saying "You are here. The Empire that was the sole custodian of texts from Greek antiquity"

You quoted Wikipedia about how Hunayn ibn Ishaq learned Greek. How does that prove that the Aristotelian texts he translated came from the Library of Constantinople or even the Byzantine Empire?


Because there was no other civilization capable of preserving these texts from when the Western Roman Empire fell to when the Islamic invasions started, and we have historical accounts of the Library of Constantinople carrying these texts (there was also the Library of Alexandria, the Library of Antioch, etc. no doubt copies of these texts had also been distributed from these libraries as well). These texts could not survive on their own without constant preservation. Papyrus or parchment will decay and rot over time, so copies have to be made if these texts were to be preserved. So there are very few options here. The Huns certainly didn't preserve these texts. Nor did any of the other barbaric tribes in Europe, they were only interested in pillaging. We know that the Byzantine convents often made copies of various texts by the monks living there for various archbishops, patriarchs, and other intellectual elites, and historians know this from their writings (I cited Photius above). I personally visited a monastery in Meteora Greece and saw some of the books they transcribed. Absolutely beautiful penmanship. Some dated to the 11th century and they looked like they came from a printing press, the handwriting was that precise.

How does Andronicus of Rhodes fit in your narrative?


This question doesn't make any sense to me at all. I think you don't understand my narrative. This is Pre-Christian era. This doesn't fit the context of the conversation. The chronological context here is after paganism lost popularity and Christianity replaced it to when Islam came around. My objections to Phil was that he said the Christian world was "the world of barbarism and force and an intellectual, moral, economic, epistemological dark ages." and contrasted this with "the Islamic world of "order, rule of law, trade, science, reason". Yet throughout the entire middle ages there was A Christian world that most certainly had rule of law (specifically Roman law) that it had tremendous amount of trade and wealth....and well to a limited extent reason. But certainly no less reason than the Islamic civilizations he's comparing it too!








(Edited by John Armaos on 7/27, 9:31am)




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Post 54

Tuesday, July 27 - 8:52amSanction this postReply
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Subject: Lack of Respect and Civility Damage Objectivism and Objectivist Intellectual Efforts

> John A., why do you feel the need to lace your responses with insulting remarks? You seem to take offense whenever anybody merely doubts, let alone disagrees with, you.

Merlin, he's now had that pointed out to him by -both- of the people he's been debating on this thread. He's just going to continue doing it. When I pointed it out to him, he just upped the ante with more insults.

That's why I've just stopped debating with the angry, contemptuous guy.

He's made a number of silly statements about history on this thread, but I don't have the time or patience to debate someone who has the intellectual history of Islam and of Byzantium (plus the Christian Dark Ages) garbled. And who calls everyone else an ignoramus to boot.


(Edited by Philip Coates on 7/27, 9:12am)




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Post 55

Tuesday, July 27 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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Subject: Substituting philosophy for knowledge and condemning scrutiny and challenging of one's position is damaging to Objectivism and Objectivist Intellectual Efforts

I love it, people accuse me of being insulting while using the very insulting language they purport to be above:

"He's made a number of silly statements about history on this thread"

It's funny, my words were pretty much nothing more than "that's silly" or "ridiculous", and yet here you are calling my posts "silly statements about history". You've more than amply demonstrated your ignorance on the topic by saying the Christian world was "the world of barbarism and force and an intellectual, moral, economic, epistemological dark ages". You can't actually reconcile this statement with the existence of the Byzantine Empire can you? Be honest, when you wrote that did you neglect to consider the existence of Byzantine Empire?

And, you have the nerve to insinuate I'm a racist for identifying "Muslims" and say I'm being insulting! You have no right to feel insulted Phil.

"but I don't have the time or patience to debate someone who has the intellectual history of Islam and of Byzantium (plus the Christian Dark Ages) garbled"

You know that's funny, because not having the time to debate it is indistinguishable from not knowing enough about it to debate it.


And I notice too Merlin just takes for granted what Phil said about the medieval Islamic world being one of the rule of law, reason, science, etc and contrasting that with the Christian world (as if the entire Christian world was unified) as being the world of darkness, ignorance, etc and yet you don't demand that Phil provide proof of this? Why the double standard?



(Edited by John Armaos on 7/27, 10:40am)




Post 56

Tuesday, July 27 - 11:02amSanction this postReply
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And I notice too Merlin just takes for granted what Phil said about the medieval Islamic world being one of the rule of law, reason, science, etc and contrasting that with the Christian world (as if the entire Christian world was unified) as being the world of darkness, ignorance, etc and yet you don't demand that Phil provide proof of this? Why the double standard?
Hogwash. Now you are claiming telepathic powers?

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 7/27, 11:12am)




Post 57

Tuesday, July 27 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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Huh? Telepathic powers? So reading your posts and seeing a lack of demanding citations for Phil's claims now requires telepathic powers?



Post 58

Tuesday, July 27 - 11:22amSanction this postReply
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No, John, your alleged telepathic power is "knowing" what I took for granted, which was in fact merely a fabrication of your imagination.



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Post 59

Tuesday, July 27 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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So why didn't you demand Phil provide citations for his historical claims but you did for me? Am I just imagining that too?



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