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Post 0

Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 7:12amSanction this postReply
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hi
(sorry for my bad englhis and not sure what theard gruop to post this in )
did look on new utopia project since it did get much anntention it can be a first intro to many abut objectvsim but is it real objectvism ?(actuly just copy of a dubia bussnis plan i gusse  not a place for objectvist ) www.new-utopia.com
and
is new utopia a obejcvtist project or is it just a fraud ?(yes they did get problem in 2001 whit SEC but they countied  and sold more ciitizensship)becuse lists of tax shelters bank acunts  and (regulation after 11 september 2001) in antigua bermuda and behamas maybe they have to pay in a court case last tiem they did try the investores was supsoed to just be poor...
the sites for hosuing and bussnisn plans they did have on new utopia  have been closed dowen but the main project   have been dowen and  new utopia website  moved from texas->florida->britan  each year. look like  some website wrote that it was coninced of fraud  in 2007 but cant find anything more abut it (class lawsuite in tax heaven ?settelemnt ?)i guss if nothing elese its a id fraud ?


Post 1

Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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Looks half a joke and half a fraud to me.

Post 2

Friday, November 12, 2010 - 8:05amSanction this postReply
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I'd hate to be stranded on an island with polaris.

Post 3

Friday, November 12, 2010 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
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From polaris' personal description page:

frome europe


not good at write enghlis, my 2. langues

dont like dogmatic objectvism or no nonsen objectvism

Apparently, English is a second language ("2. langues") for polaris -- so let's cut him/her some slack.

:-)

We don't yet have an English-based Objectivist forum for those who have managed to read and understand the technical and abstract philosophical teachings of Objectivism -- but who have not also gone to the trouble to inform themselves on how to write well in English. I'm thinking of a forum called something like "second-language Objectivist-writers" or SLOW, for short -- but I am open to other ideas ...

Ed


Post 4

Friday, November 12, 2010 - 3:10pmSanction this postReply
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Rand herself would be eligible to join, but I wouldn't.

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Post 5

Friday, November 12, 2010 - 4:34pmSanction this postReply
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Peter,

You couldn't join SLOW, but neither could Rand -- because Rand went "to the trouble to inform [herself] on how to write well in English." See her books for the evidence of that.

:-)

Ed


Post 6

Friday, November 12, 2010 - 5:22pmSanction this postReply
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Sheeeesh, Ed. Please cut this guy some slack. It takes a bit of courage to post on this site if you don't have (yet) a good ability to express yourself in another language.  Whether he is naive or not about the "Utopia" isn't an issue. He's at least trying.

Sam


Post 7

Friday, November 12, 2010 - 5:27pmSanction this postReply
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I try to judge the underlying idea, not so much the quality of expression when the author is an amateur writer and especially if it isn't in their native tongue. (On the last, it's Not so much out of generosity as the fact that I can't write in ANY other language :-)

Post 8

Friday, November 12, 2010 - 7:26pmSanction this postReply
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Anyone who has access to Google (all of the free world, in fact) can access their excellent "language translator" tool, which will  correctly spell words in English from most other languages. Readers can figure out the rest.

Sorry, but those spelling errors look so forced and deliberate, I can't believe this individual is legitimate.



Post 9

Friday, November 12, 2010 - 8:31pmSanction this postReply
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The best test of legitimacy would be to click on the link, but I'm not going to try.

Post 10

Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 6:30amSanction this postReply
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I found this on it from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Utopia

And this from microwiki:

http://micronations.wikia.com/wiki/New_Utopia

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Post 11

Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 2:03pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa:

Sorry, but those spelling errors look so forced and deliberate

I think you're very perceptive. A lot of those errors are simply reversing a couple of letters.

Sam


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Post 12

Monday, November 15, 2010 - 9:29pmSanction this postReply
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We used to joke about Objectivist island ideas, as they were much more popular even ten years ago.  The imaginary island goes something like this:

1000 Objectivists move to an island.  Mostly these are the poor Objectivists who claim to have shrugged before they ever accomplished anything.  They are the ones who don't mind leaving their life behind because there was nothing to leave behind.  They go there imagining all of the luxuries of the modern world, from wall-mart, to Amazon.  They expect to work in the field of software, but they'll settle for janitorial work.  They don't care much, because they're sure the island will quickly become the most advanced nation on the planet.

Everyone shows up, and realizes they not only have no food, but nobody knows the first thing about farming.  They all assumed someone else would take care of that sort of thing so they could focus on the world of ideas!

They begin to starve.  They try to order some food online, but nobody delivers to Objectivist Island.  Who would have imagined it would be so hard to get food on a remote island?  Everyone is so hungry.

There's only one Objectivist woman on the island.  The 999 males each claim to be her John Galt, and spend days debating with her over whether it would be morally permissible for her to not sleep with them.  When she firmly says no, they stomp off complaining that she's not really Dagny Taggart after all, and who let such a whim-worshipper onto their island?  They think they beat her in the argument and it was just petty of her not to admit it.  And to top it off, they're feeling weak from hunger!

The killing starts over a minor disagreement on the nature of concept formation.  When a few of the saner people decide they have to arrest the killer, debate begins over whether anarcho-capitalism would work and whether if the killer decides to opt-out of the system, whether anyone can actually punish him.  The killer sneaks away while the debate continues.  Nobody ever notices.

The group starts splintering along ideological lines.  Each breaks off in an attempt to make their own utopian nation.  The splinter groups re-splinter as people find new areas of disagreement.  Soon almost everyone has excommunicated everyone else, and they refuse to speak to the others for fear of sanctioning evil.  The starvation continues.  The skinny ones start dying off.

Widespread violence begins when each person decides that everyone else is irrational, and you can't deal with irrational men through persuasion.  They fight for every scrap of food.  The few people who are still on speaking terms debate whether the others have actually forfeited their rights by abdicating reason. When they can't agree, they splinter as well, infuriated by the irrationality of the others.  Everyone is so very hungry!

Cannibalism soon breaks out.  Crazed Objectivists run naked through the woods mumbling "Emergency situations! It's a life boat scenario!  I can do anything I want!".

Finally the rest of the world finds out the horror of Objectivist Island.  It had only been three weeks, and the ground is littered with corpses.  A few survivors are picked up and taken away from the nightmare world.  When asked if they had anything to share about the experience, each says "Well....I guess I was wrong.  Objectivism just doesn't work in practice".


Post 13

Monday, November 15, 2010 - 10:10pmSanction this postReply
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This kind of project has been tried before, and if I'm not mistaken, neighboring governments moved in by force to lay claim to it. So, you'd need some way of preventing this kind of takeover. The way to make it work, assuming that it wasn't being challenged by another government, is to lure investors with the promise of a tax-and-regulation-free haven. It would be interesting to see the results if it were allowed to develop, free of outside intervention.


Post 14

Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

That is a pretty funny joke.

It may be needless, but I feel compelled to remind the reader that the joke is about people, not philosophy. There is a difficult and painful learning curve when one becomes an Objectivist. Part of that curve is to develop new-found patience with loads of irrational folks -- or even just less rational folks -- with whom one interacts on a usual basis. This is actually true of any great personal development or achievement.

Any great strides one makes widen a gap between folks that you know and yourself (unless all the folks you know are all developing as far and as fast as you are). Luke just had a thread linking your health to what your friends eat. It turns out that if you make great strides and eat really, really healthy -- that you have less people you can comfortably eat with without creating a stir. The same is true of philosophy and personal growth. If all your friends are jobless and you alone get a job ...

The other option -- the alternative to developing increasing patience and understanding -- is depicted very well by your comedic short story. The other option is to develop either increasing resentment of anything ordinary in your life, or an unhinged & spiraling sense of moral superiority over others (no matter what "life journey" they are on, or what spiritual crises they currently face). When this second option is chosen -- and it is a choice -- all hell is broken loose (as you so eloquently illustrated).

No man is an island.

:-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 11/16, 4:04pm)


Post 15

Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 5:21pmSanction this postReply
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(lol!)

Post 16

Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 7:59amSanction this postReply
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hmm naive this project got annteion in The indepent and The observer (newspaper from england that are as well knowen as san franscio crohnicel ) in german and arabic newspapers  in some florida newspaper when it did start,  did been in housten chrochicel  newspaper .I think it was talk abut lawsuite from some of the investoers (scamdog and a tax shelter/chypherpunk forum did write abut that ) can it be sued and won but not in a officael record in court cases in usa ?
why do you think its half a joke ?
or can they do i in a gorgetowen  court and not in usa becuse it did have office in caymen island ?
anything else then sec that look on fraud or lawsuite agisnt fraud/failed investemen companys in usa or caribeen ?

in 2001 the dubai project allso did look naive
they got build got house and bussnis owners (that the project are bankrupt now is more abut failuer abut the bussnis ideas then that it was a fraud )
maybe you can only start your owen country  do this in usa if you call it a religon ?
like the mormones in colodrado villages that fox news discoverd once or the left wing projects (not actuly called a state but in reality are ) you can read abut when you walk into a left wing bookshop in seattel
and sombody did build a gated comuntiy (in nevada or arizona/texas) wher you could carry guns  and have a free shooting ranges
  i guess clebrationvill or somthing like that in disney world are some of the same ideas?


btw thanks for the suport that i cant write good enghlis and are dyslectic  :)
not my reasson that enghlis get written totaly difrent that how you pronuce  it (difrent from  turk or north europen valley dailects and indoneisan )
hmm any of yours that can read and post in a dutch philospy forum ;)

ed thompsen i know the feeling got a iq 145 and been backpacking southeast asia 2 year on my owen
rowland i guss only place alle objecvtivst and libertarian can live peacfully are in actuley in  AC system like erick mack talk abut...
dweyer anybody sued those free state project sucsefuly ? 


Post 17

Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 11:12amSanction this postReply
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Whether you are for real or not, you claim to have checked this out more thoroughly than any of the rest of us.  If you haven't found an Objectivist connection, there's none to be found.  Case closed.

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Post 18

Friday, November 19, 2010 - 7:02amSanction this postReply
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polaris,

ed thompsen i know the feeling got a iq 145 and been backpacking southeast asia 2 year on my owen

You know, even if I don't speak the language, I still go to the trouble to spell someone's surname correctly. If you don't believe me then ask Peter Reedy, Joe Roeland, or Teresa Eyesandheart.

:-)

Anyway, I find it somewhat difficult to reconcile your claim to an (genius) IQ of 145 with your inability to get someone's name right. It's like you are the only genius who can't remember how to spell a name, or something. I have an IQ of 129 and I know that I would have much less trouble participating in a forum in a foreign language. Folks'd know I wasn't of their native tongue, but it wouldn't stand out like a 7-foot tall guy with a neon-lit sandwich board and a ten-gallon cowboy hat.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 11/19, 10:22am)


Post 19

Friday, November 19, 2010 - 4:09pmSanction this postReply
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Re-reading my post 14, and using it to morally evaluate my post 18, yields the appearance of a terrible and blatant hypocrisy.

In post 14, I said that the really, really cool Objectivists among us will have extra patience for folks less rational than they have become. In post 18, I made fun of the latter. If there is an Objectivist hell, I am surely in it by now.

:-)

Ed


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