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Post 40

Monday, February 28, 2011 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

First of all, I am sorry to hear about your loss with regard to your family.

I would argue that the events I have described were divine knowledge transmitted to me in a fashion I could understand ...
You're describing revelation. About your specific revelation there can be no argument, except to just take you at your word that it was as you say it was. The only proper arguments to be made will concern revelation in general. A proper question would be:

Is revelation (e.g., Divine revelation) a tool of cognition -- i.e., a means for knowledge accrual?

Folks of different stripes have differing answers to this question. Religionists (but not all spiritualists) claim that the answer is affirmative -- that knowledge is a normal by-product of revelation. Objectivists, utilizing an integrated system of epistemology, disagree:

Since man is not omniscient or infallible, you have to discover what you can claim as knowledge and how to prove the validity of your conclusions. Does man acquire knowledge by a process of reason—or by sudden revelation from a supernatural power? Is reason a faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses—or is it fed by innate ideas, implanted in man’s mind before he was born? ...

... Men have been taught either that knowledge is impossible (skepticism) or that it is available without effort (mysticism). These two positions appear to be antagonists, but are, in fact, two variants on the same theme ... : ... the attempt to assert the primacy of consciousness over existence.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/epistemology.html

Reason is the only objective means of communication and of understanding among men; when men deal with one another by means of reason, reality is their objective standard and frame of reference. But when men claim to possess supernatural means of knowledge, no persuasion, communication or understanding are possible.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/mysticism.html

You asked Dean:

In 1964 Rand stated:

" The right to life is the source of all rights--and the right to property is their only implementation without property rights, no other rights are possible."

After reading Rands quote it seems to me that Rand believes the unborn child's right to life trumps the property rights of the expecting mother.Your thoughts please.


I'm sure Dean will share his thoughts soon, but I wanted to analyze your conclusion. Conclusions involve premises and your conclusion would appear to involve at least these premises:

--a fetus is an individual
--a woman's right to life is not involved (only her property rights are)
--it can be okay to deny property rights, because other rights are still possible without property rights

Do you agree?

Ed


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Post 41

Monday, February 28, 2011 - 7:43pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Malcom: Your argument permitting abortion because the unborn human is not a "child" yet is a slippery slope. Your line drawn at the child not breathing yet is arbitrary. A human is continually gaining ability, intelligence, memory, feeling, & emotion from conception to adulthood all the way to adulthood. I think that your last paragraph is concluding that "right to property" trumps "right to life", no matter what kind you categorize the unborn human as.

Steve, If you want to talk more about your "divine revelation" as Ed calls it, I suggest you start a new thread in the dissent board.
"The right to life is the source of all rights--and the right to property is their only implementation without property rights, no other rights are possible."
After reading Rands quote it seems to me that Rand believes the unborn child's right to life trumps the property rights of the expecting mother.Your thoughts please.
From "The Virtue of Selfishness": Rand's "Right to life". "Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action; the right to life means the right to engage in self-sustaining and self-generated action—which means: the freedom to take all the actions required by the nature of a rational being for the support, the furtherance, the fulfillment and the enjoyment of his own life."

First I'd like to talk about rights. You can categorize rights as follows (wikipedia): "Either permitting one to act or refrain from acting, or obliging others to act or refrain from acting". I would order rights as follows (earlier trumps later):
1. "Obliging others to refrain from acting"
2. "Permitting one to act or refrain from acting"
3. "Obliging others to act" is only valid in contracts

===
1. The problem with "Right to life" is exactly as you have pointed out. It pits the child's right to continue performing its actions (consuming the mother's resources and using the mother's shelter) against the mother's right to do what she has chosen to do with her own body in order to accomplish her own goals.

I'd disagree with "The Virtue of Selfishness" in its claim that "right to life" is the fundamental right, at least not for law and civilization. Instead you could call it "the fundamental of what a person should do". But it is not legal, or at least, it results in contradictions unless you include a phrase that limits your actions so that they do not infringe on other's "right to property"... so it is not useful for law.

Maybe countless hours have been wasted where people argue about what a person should do vs what should be law. Particularly in lifeboat situations. :) With "rights", we are always talking about what should be law.
===

===
2. I instead claim that "right to property" is the fundamental right. And I'd define "right to property" as: "One has the right to use one's own property in any way, and that others are obliged to refrain from using one's property unless given permission by one." This should be the basis of law, of civilization.
Also,if the right to life trumps all other property rights. Does the woman who is an Objectivist duty bound to give the gift of life to a child? Rand was childless was she not? Did she choose not to have a child or was she infertile? If she refused to bear children how can that be justified by her? Is it a woman's duty to give life? Thank you for your time.
From my above discussion, I think we'd agree that the Objectivist's "right to life" puts a conflict between the rights of the mother and the rights of the unborn human. Objectivists side on the mother's rights in this case, unsatisfactorily with the contradiction in "right to life", but probably falling back to Robert Malcom's argument, which is an unsatisfactory slippery slope saying that the entity doesn't have rights yet for some arbitrary reason. Or they may use my self consistent (yet maybe still unsatisfactory to you) "right to property".

I'm not sure why Rand didn't have children. No, an Objectivist makes no claim on whether a woman should create humans (:P "give life").
===

===
3. Just because the woman does not have the duty to provide for the needs of her child, it does not mean that she _should_ (back to this "should" later) put the child in a situation where the child will die when there is possibility that another willing person could continue to raise the child. With current technology, the threshold for when "there is a possibility that another willing person could continue to raise the child" is at birth. Potentially in the future a pre-birth human could be transplanted into another human or some kind of biological technology where the pre-birth child could grow. So in the future, the threshold could move before birth. But even before birth, I would think that the mother's wishes on method of removal may still trump the technological transplant method. Its still her body that operations will be performed on. There may be risks to her on one method vs another, and I respect the "right to property" of the mother.

The "should" above may seem like a case of "Obliging others to act", but it is not. This is the case:
1. A person who has needs (Needy)
2. Where there are people who are capable and willing to provide for those needs (Providers)
3. The Needy was once in the presence of Providers
4. A Caregiver takes custody of the Needy, implicitly agreeing that Caregiver will provide for the Needy, and will continue to provide until Needy is no longer Needy, or Caregiver brings Needy to predetermined location where Providers can be reassigned.

If the Caregiver neglects to act to provide for the Needy or fails to bring the needy to the predetermined location, then the Caregiver is causing the death of the Needy. The cause was the Caregiver's original action of taking custody. Hence the _should_ above, which is a legal requirement to act (Obliging others to act), due to an implied agreement when the person became a Caregiver.

Heh, note the occurrence of "capable" in #2. Also, that the Needy was once in the custody of Providers in #3 :) That's my way to assert that 1-4 is not the case until the child can live without the conceiving mother. It also makes it legal for a woman to allow unfertilized eggs to die. It also makes it legal for a man to refuse to give others his sperm.
===

===
4. How do we decide whether an entity has "right to property"? Legally, its a question of which entities the society grants citizenship, and what agreements the society has made with other external governments. I would suggest that citizenship should be granted to those who offer a "sufficient" amount of their own property/income to the government and demonstration of consciousness.
===

Cheers,
Dean
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 3/01, 3:28am)


Post 42

Tuesday, March 1, 2011 - 7:09amSanction this postReply
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Here is Rands view on abortion:

An embryo has no rights. Rights do not pertain to a potential, only to an actual being. A child cannot acquire any rights until it is born. The living take precedence over the not-yet-living (or the unborn).

Abortion is a moral right—which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered. Who can conceivably have the right to dictate to her what disposition she is to make of the functions of her own body?

The Voice of Reason “Of Living Death,”
The Voice of Reason, 58–59.

Never mind the vicious nonsense of claiming that an embryo has a “right to life.” A piece of protoplasm has no rights—and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months. To equate a potential with an actual, is vicious; to advocate the sacrifice of the latter to the former, is unspeakable. . . . Observe that by ascribing rights to the unborn, i.e., the nonliving, the anti-abortionists obliterate the rights of the living: the right of young people to set the course of their own lives. The task of raising a child is a tremendous, lifelong responsibility, which no one should undertake unwittingly or unwillingly. Procreation is not a duty: human beings are not stock-farm animals. For conscientious persons, an unwanted pregnancy is a disaster; to oppose its termination is to advocate sacrifice, not for the sake of anyone’s benefit, but for the sake of misery qua misery, for the sake of forbidding happiness and fulfillment to living human beings.

The Ayn Rand Letter “A Last Survey,” The Ayn Rand Letter, IV, 2, 3.

If any among you are confused or taken in by the argument that the cells of an embryo are living human cells, remember that so are all the cells of your body, including the cells of your skin, your tonsils, or your ruptured appendix—and that cutting them is murder, according to the notions of that proposed law. Remember also that a potentiality is not the equivalent of an actuality—and that a human being’s life begins at birth.

The question of abortion involves much more than the termination of a pregnancy: it is a question of the entire life of the parents. As I have said before, parenthood is an enormous responsibility; it is an impossible responsibility for young people who are ambitious and struggling, but poor; particularly if they are intelligent and conscientious enough not to abandon their child on a doorstep nor to surrender it to adoption. For such young people, pregnancy is a death sentence: parenthood would force them to give up their future, and condemn them to a life of hopeless drudgery, of slavery to a child’s physical and financial needs. The situation of an unwed mother, abandoned by her lover, is even worse.

I cannot quite imagine the state of mind of a person who would wish to condemn a fellow human being to such a horror. I cannot project the degree of hatred required to make those women run around in crusades against abortion. Hatred is what they certainly project, not love for the embryos, which is a piece of nonsense no one could experience, but hatred, a virulent hatred for an unnamed object. Judging by the degree of those women’s intensity, I would say that it is an issue of self-esteem and that their fear is metaphysical. Their hatred is directed against human beings as such, against the mind, against reason, against ambition, against success, against love, against any value that brings happiness to human life. In compliance with the dishonesty that dominates today’s intellectual field, they call themselves “pro-life.”

By what right does anyone claim the power to dispose of the lives of others and to dictate their personal choices?

The Objectivist Forum

Post 43

Tuesday, March 1, 2011 - 8:42amSanction this postReply
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Ed:
Thank you for your condolences. My father lived a long and full life. And as I revealed in my last post, he is in his new life. Albeit, I saw him later singing in an all male choir with his left eye missing. The sight disturbed me, but upon reflection I believe I was shown the image to bring meaning to the biblical verse found in Matthew 19 verse 9:

"If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell."

No, my father did not physically pluck his left eye out,nevertheless he must have at some point understood that something in the world coming from the demonic political left was going to cause him to sin --so he consciously plucked out of his mind that which would have allowed him to recognize and understand the sin--which once he had acquired the knowledge he would have stood condemned by God. As you can see from my last post I found Ayn Rands views on abortion. I will speak to that later. In response to your :
"Is revelation (e.g., Divine revelation) a tool of cognition -- i.e., a means for knowledge accrual?" Apparently so. I liken them to pictographs. The image that has adjusted my focus (created my perspective) as I address this group is one given to me years ago. I am standing in space next to a man in a white robe on a shore line--the shore line represents a time line, he is pointing at earth. When I consider each aspect of the image it directs my consciousness to a different context--but the thrust of the image is to lift me out of the earth time continuum-- to place me out side of the box. The other image I received about the same time was of a room crisscrossed with red and blue laser beams. The man who I spoke with said: " Each red and blue line represents a body of thought that is alive in the world today"--Rand's body of though is there-it is blue in color. He said he monitors the changes as a particular thought evolves. As I said before the visions are very powerful. When I think back on them they come alive. For instance the room of thought beams has a waterfall in it--it is living water, which appears out of the ceiling and disappears into the floor. I can hear it splash, smell it as a mist fills the air, I can see the man busy at his work...

I certainly understand why "Objectivists, utilizing an integrated system of epistemology, disagree:"

The truths that stand behind the images are not comprehensible to me so the images are similar to children's books which in there innocent non-threatening way point to a far greater truth. As my mind grows the meaning is pealed back a layer at a time.

"Is reason a faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by man�s senses�or is it fed by innate ideas, implanted in man�s mind before he was born? ..." We are born with the potential to know--albeit it is an attractive idea to think that general truths regarding reality are naturally released much in the manner as D.N.R controls the formation of a newly conceived child. I have to reject that possibility--perhaps before the fall of mankind it was possible -- but not now. Knowledge is acquired through dilligent study.

" ... Men have been taught either that knowledge is impossible (skepticism) or that it is available without effort (mysticism). These two positions appear to be antagonists, but are, in fact, two variants on the same theme ... : ... the attempt to assert the primacy of consciousness over existence."

God's instructions are for believers "to assert the primacy of consciousness over existence." That mandate is found in Genesis 1:28: “God said to them, ‘Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth‘” (NRSV).



"Reason is the only objective means of communication and of understanding among men; when men deal with one another by means of reason, reality is their objective standard and frame of reference. But when men claim to possess supernatural means of knowledge, no persuasion, communication or understanding are possible."

I completely agree with your statement. The universe is orderly-- I am certain that Rand was allowed by God to propagate her philosophy to make your point: " Reason is the only objective means of communication and of understanding among men." Reason will in time lead the human race to God--that is to say the mind of God will be one with mankind. The premises will match like the pictures on the face of a slot machine and the lights will begin to blink wildly and perhaps a rams horn or two will sound.
I have to give some more thought to my right to life property position in light of Rands statements. I will post them later to day or tomorrow.

Blessing,
Steve



Post 44

Tuesday, March 1, 2011 - 11:33amSanction this postReply
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I have nothing profound to offer to this argument. I am an Orthodox Christian and my opinion on the topic is unwavering: LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION. Even Rand gets squeamish after the first trimester for an abortion. Besides far better men and women then I have argued for the defense of an "unborn" child's God given right to life. Nevertheless I will respond to your statements.

"There is no such thing as an 'unborn child' - a child is what has been born... a fetus is NOT a child, but a 'child-in-the-making', a potential, not an actual - and it is when it breaths the air, and its systems are on their own, that a child's life begins - and that is at birth..."

I vehemently disagree with your chicken and egg argument. The moment a sperm enters the ovum a child is BORN. That is to say when the 23 chromosomes contained in the spermatozoon and the 23 chromosomes contained in the ovum join to become 46 chromosomes--at that precise moment sir is the birth day of a human child.

"...there is no 'duty' because we are not slaves, and 'duty' is a slaver mindset - procreation takes a back seat to choice, so to speak - individuals exist for their own sake, not that of a group, to the well-being of the individual woman, not that of the aggregate around her... if the individual woman chooses to bear a child, and circumstances make it not to her well-being to continue the bearing, then there is no child - if she chooses to bear a child and it carries forth into having a child, then she does, as a matter of choice, of consciously wanting the child - not of any supposed 'duty'..."

No duty? The moment she consents to sexual intercourse with a male partner she accepted the consequences- one of the consequences is the birth of a child and the other is to contract a venereal disease. Murdering your unborn child is not an option- therefore it then become the mother and fathers duty to raise their child until the child is capable of independent living. That is God's plan for human reproduction and it is absolute.

Thank you for responding I appreciate it.

Blessings,
Steve

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Post 45

Tuesday, March 1, 2011 - 11:57amSanction this postReply
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This should be taken to the Dissent section of ROR.

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Post 46

Tuesday, March 1, 2011 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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Few argue about abortion rights for a very early stage pregnancy, though personally I do find any abortion to be anti-life and something that I find on the balance morally objectionable unless there is a very good reason.

The difficulty is when it is no longer just a "protoplasm" but indeed, were it born prematurely, could actually live. In that case, I don't believe any abortion should be allowed (legally) except in the case where it is a true danger to the mother. Most of today's arguments center on these borderline cases. Then there is law vs. what is the best moral choice. I think the standard Objectivist position is wrong because it does not sufficiently take into account:

1 - The responsibility inherent in having sex that is the cause of a pregnancy. A pregnancy does not simply spring upon you like a disease. Actions and your choices have consequences.
2 - The human life - potential to actual - that is involved.

Organizations like planned parenthood were started as eugenics movements. Widespread abortion in nations has created dangerously declining populations (Russia, Europe) or other problems (aborted females in China). Just look at the recent vile case of the abortionist here in PA and how he literally murdered children post-birth. Not good company. This is the company that all the bad guys are in, and we should take care not to join people like that.


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Post 47

Tuesday, March 1, 2011 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
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Steve Alan Redder,

"That is God's plan for human reproduction and it is absolute." That's a joke, right? :P This isn't a place where arguments are based on the premise of what "God" thinks. Rand is a great foundation. But she is not our "God", and what she has said is not necessarily what we believe. In an Objective philosophy, arguments are not supported by who wrote them, but the actual contents of the arguments themselves. You may find that your posts are more likely to be accepted in the moderation queue in the future if you are posting on the dissent forum.

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Post 48

Tuesday, March 1, 2011 - 4:10pmSanction this postReply
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No duty? The moment she consents to sexual intercourse with a male partner she accepted the consequences-
You could say the same thing about accident victims. Why should science intervene with medical advances designed to correct the consequences of an unplanned accident? Would you seriously force people live with scars and pain even if an alternative were available? Why? 


Post 49

Wednesday, March 2, 2011 - 7:52amSanction this postReply
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I

Dean said: "Steve, If you want to talk more about your "divine revelation" as Ed calls it, I suggest you start a new thread in the dissent board."

Dean, I posted a few of my mystical experiences to enable you to better understand how my thinking is derived and organized. I did so for the same reasons many of the members of this site cite the universities they attended-- my revelations are my bona fides.

Steve said: "The right to life is the source of all rights--and the right to property is their only implementation without property rights, no other rights are possible.
After reading Rands quote it seems to me that Rand believes the unborn child's right to life trumps the property rights of the expecting mother.Your thoughts please."

Since I made that post I have since learned that Rand supports abortion. Albeit perhaps limited abortion. I have recited two of Rands statement again for easy reference.

Abortion

"An embryo has no rights. Rights do not pertain to a potential, only to an actual being. A child cannot acquire any rights until it is born. The living take precedence over the not-yet-living (or the unborn).

Abortion is a moral right—which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered. Who can conceivably have the right to dictate to her what disposition she is to make of the functions of her own body?

The Voice of Reason “Of Living Death,”
The Voice of Reason, 58–59.

Never mind the vicious nonsense of claiming that an embryo has a “right to life.” A piece of protoplasm has no rights—and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months. To equate a potential with an actual, is vicious; to advocate the sacrifice of the latter to the former, is unspeakable. . . . Observe that by ascribing rights to the unborn, i.e., the nonliving, the anti-abortionists obliterate the rights of the living: the right of young people to set the course of their own lives. The task of raising a child is a tremendous, lifelong responsibility, which no one should undertake unwittingly or unwillingly. Procreation is not a duty: human beings are not stock-farm animals. For conscientious persons, an unwanted pregnancy is a disaster; to oppose its termination is to advocate sacrifice, not for the sake of anyone’s benefit, but for the sake of misery qua misery, for the sake of forbidding happiness and fulfillment to living human beings."

The first serious error in her logic is located in the first quote: "A child cannot acquire any rights until it is born. The living take precedence over the not-yet-living (or the unborn)."

I think we all can agree that an unborn child is alive can we not? Consequently, her errant "not-yet-living" position nullifies her " The living take precedence over the not-yet-living(or the unborn)." position. Nevertheless her principle point is well articulated: A child can not acquire any rights unless it is alive/born.

Rand further undermines her "not-yet-living" position with this statement:
"A piece of protoplasm has no rights-and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy,..." ("A Last Survey," The Ayn Rand Letter, IV, 2, 3) "
So it seems that Miss Rand is apparently open to conditional rights for the not-yet-living child. Which again corrupts her alive/born stance. Hopefully I have outlined the collapse of her, "A piece of protoplasm has no rights-and no life in the human sense of the term."
I shall cite Deans argument as my rebuttal for those who are sympathetic to Rand's protoplasm position because it was so well stated:

"Robert Malcom: Your argument permitting abortion because the unborn human is not a "child" yet is a slippery slope. Your line drawn at the child not breathing yet is arbitrary. A human is continually gaining ability, intelligence, memory, feeling, & emotion from conception to adulthood all the way to adulthood..."

I shall rest this portion of my case on the true intent of the following immortal words:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

This following point I believe would be received warmly by you--while I was a husband I was a two time successful contributor of my 23 chromosomes. Consequently, I take STRONG exception to Rand's statement: "Abortion is a moral right—which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered. Who can conceivably have the right to dictate to her what disposition she is to make of the functions of her own body ?"

That is an immoral statement. My investment of 23 chromosomes entitles me to a property claim totaling 50%.


Dean said:
"2. I instead claim that "right to property" is the fundamental right. And I'd define "right to property" as: "One has the right to use one's own property in any way, and that others are obliged to refrain from using one's property unless given permission by one." This should be the basis of law, of civilization."

Steve said:

Using your "right to property" standard would you not agree that a male has an irrefutable property rights claim upon their unborn child?

Blessings,
Steve




Post 50

Wednesday, March 2, 2011 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
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Dean said: Steve Alan Redder,

"That is God's plan for human reproduction and it is absolute." That's a joke, right? :P This isn't a place where arguments are based on the premise of what "God" thinks. Rand is a great foundation. But she is not our "God", and what she has said is not necessarily what we believe. In an Objective philosophy, arguments are not supported by who wrote them, but the actual contents of the arguments themselves. You may find that your posts are more likely to be accepted in the moderation queue in the future if you are posting on the dissent forum.

I believe you assume that I have not thoughtfully considered the written statement of the God of the Jews and Christians. I am not a brain washed cult member. I have very carefully analyzed the written statements of God I have weighed them in my heart and mind. As I am instructed in the book of Isaiah chapter 1 verse 18:

"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool."

So, for you to suggest that I am not being objective is utter nonsense. It has always been God's intention to reveal Himself and His creation to us His created. You refuse to accept that potentiality, which is your right--and to those who frequent this forum the Lord would say to them:

"21 Hear this, you foolish and senseless people,
who have eyes but do not see,
who have ears but do not hear: "
Jeremiah 5:21

Thank you for this opportunity. This forum has allowed me to inspect a number of my own deeply held beliefs as well to consider the deeply held beliefs of others.

Blessing,
Steve

Post 51

Wednesday, March 2, 2011 - 8:09amSanction this postReply
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Teresa said:

" o duty? The moment she consents to sexual intercourse with a male partner she accepted the consequences-

You could say the same thing about accident victims. Why should science intervene with medical advances designed to correct the consequences of an unplanned accident? Would you seriously force people live with scars and pain even if an alternative were available? Why?"

When did the enjoyable act of conceiving a child become the equivalent of an accident induced fractured skull or ruptured spleen?
Teresa human life is sacred. Unborn children are not to be murdered. (Thou shall not kill.)

Post 52

Wednesday, March 2, 2011 - 12:03pmSanction this postReply
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What are you talking about? Do you even know?

Post 53

Wednesday, March 2, 2011 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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It would be nice if an editor could pluck everything from post 37 on and move it under a new heading in the Dissent section with a intro post that points back to this thread.

This kind of argument doesn't belong in the main area of a forum devoted to reason.

Post 54

Wednesday, March 2, 2011 - 1:05pmSanction this postReply
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Steve Alan Redder,

What I think Teresa was saying is that simply by choosing to drive a car, you do not choose the unforeseen consequences of an accident. Granted, if you were reckless and the accident were you're fault, then you can be held accountable for it and required to compensate the other driver. But not every accident that you might have is your fault, yet you know that by consenting to drive, you expose yourself to the possibility of an accident (one that is not the result of your own carelessness).

For example, suppose that as you are driving, a child suddenly darts out into the path of your car and gets hit by you and killed. Did you choose to kill the child, because you chose to drive your car? You could have avoided hitting her, if you had abstained from driving entirely, but that doesn't mean that by choosing to drive, you are morally responsible for the child's death.

By the same token, responsible contraception is not 100% infallible. So, analogously, by choosing to have safe sex, you do not thereby choose the consequences of becoming pregnant, should that happen. Since you are not morally responsible for the pregnancy, you are entitled to terminate it. Teresa can correct me if I'm wrong, but that, I believe, is her argument.

In any case, I would say that a zygote is not a rights-bearing human being. It does not, at conception, even have a mind or consciousness, which at the very least is a precondition for the right to life.

Sorry, Steve Wolfer, I didn't see your post. Yes, why don't we start another thread on this topic in the Dissent Section under a new thread entitled "The Ethics of Abortion." I'll take the initiative and start one with this post as a duplicate.

(Edited by William Dwyer on 3/02, 1:43pm)


Post 55

Wednesday, March 2, 2011 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
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Redder's just getting stupid & infantile now.  I've rejected his last two posts and told him to take it to dissent.


Post 56

Wednesday, March 2, 2011 - 3:46pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, Bill.  

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