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Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 3:45pmSanction this postReply
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If anyone really wished to parody Rand, it could be done much more funnily and accurately than on this pathetic clip. No one need misrepresent her views as he did - "sharing only helps the weak" - to make a funny statement.

This was a malicious and gratuitous attack. Where has Rand been in the news lately that Colbert felt the need to defame her anyway?

Stewart and Colbert both know better, and so should have you.

Ted

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Post 1

Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 4:09pmSanction this postReply
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Something must be going on in NY with an Objectivist and some "inner city youths."

I'm of the "any press is good press" school.  I can't help it, but I'm thrilled anytime something Rand is on mainstream media.  Even something as twisted as this.


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Post 2

Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 4:24pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with both Ted (this video is sick and wrong) and Teresa (it's still a powerful exposure for Objectivism). Rand distinguished humor from mockery, this video blurred that line of distinction. In 'The Romantic Manifesto', Rand said that the moral character of humor always depends on its object (p 133) ...

To laugh at the contemptible, is a virtue; to laugh at the good, is a hideous vice. Too often, humor is used as the camouflage of moral cowardice.
Colbert (funny as he otherwise is) is, at rock-bottom, a moral coward.

Ed


Post 3

Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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Parodies or Lies?

Although I do tend to think that most publicity is good publicity, there is a difference between calling Rand "a melodramatic radical extremist with highly unpopular views who thought that selfishness was a virtue, chuckle, chuckle," [true, if exaggerated] and saying that she thought that "helping the weak" was evil (Colbert) that Atlas was the "worst piece of crap" ever written (Barbrady on South Park) that the underworld survives on "scraps of porn and Ayn Rand novels flushed down toilets" (Futurama) or that one can hear the sound of "jackboots" and the command "off to the gas chambers" (Whitaker Chambers in the National Review). The first characterization sounds negative but has a basis in reality - the following are lies and don't.

Rand can be parodied by exaggeration in a fair way - or libeled in a lying and evil way. Stewart, Colbert, et. al. know better.

Ted Keer

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 7/12, 7:23pm)


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Post 4

Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 5:24pmSanction this postReply
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Rand must be a significant threat to Colbert's values or he wouldn't have done this piece in the first place. Also, he must have understood that most of his audience knew who Rand was and what she was about or it wouldn't have made any sense to anyone.

Sam


Post 5

Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 11:52pmSanction this postReply
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In Response:

I understand the reaction of Ted and Ed (what is this "Hop on Pop"?), who I both respect highly. I am not defending the fact that this was a sarcastic attack on Rand- this is why I posted it as a joke, for it to be taken lightly. But as this a moral realm where selectivity is a virtue, I will defend the reason I posted it and why "Colbert makes me laugh."

Media exposure of Rand's ideas is rare. And Rand's ideas are extreme. Therefore, you should expect only sensational references to Rand in this day and age. Colbert's lampooning of Rand was one such example. All the others that Ted mentioned are just as odd and obscure... although he forgot Maggie's daycare in episode "A Streetcar Named Marge" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Streetcar_Named_Marge [spot the nerd].

Yet when you factor in that most people who exposed to Rand's ideas through AS or TF or ITOE (like Ed), take them seriously whether or not they agree with her or not it is implied that she is highly respected for her philosophy. And amongst those who have not read her yet know of her, they know her ideas are profound and not easily dismissed.(This is how I was before I read Rand three years ago).

So when the crowd, from whom only a slim majority have read Rand although many know of her, goes wild for Colbert's reference to Rand it's only because her ideas actually have some respect from most and a lot from a few. They know when Colbert says "sharing rewards the weak" that it is an exaggerated misrepresentation- her ideas have too much respect, even from Colbert himself [Note his use of the term 'rational self-interest'- that suggests familiarity] and so laughter is valid and appropriate.

I did not take offence to Colbert's bit because I know that he and his audience know that Rand's ideas are complex and profound; dealing with the ideas in jest is the only way to mention them without seriousness. Colbert and his audience, as individuals and hastened by this reference, can do so on their own time.

-- Tyson

PS: I would like to say again that I am honoured that Ted and Ed, two of the intellectual giants on this forum are trying to keep me steady. I am glad I provoke them. Thank you for this challenge to myself. If either of you are attending the TOC Summer Conference right now I am sorry that I am missing it and my chance to meet you in person.



Post 6

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 1:16amSanction this postReply
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Tyson,

I did not take your posting the clip as either personally offensive nor particularly objectionable. I simply said you should have known better - perhaps shown some better taste. But I don't agree with the assessment that Colbert really was at all sympathetic. There simply are some things you don't mock, especially gratuitously, and that includes a much wider class of things than does Rand. (The terrible show "That's my Bush" is another stronger example of decadent sarcasm - while what I've seen of "Li'l Bush" is not so bad - not that I intend to watch more of it.) Colbert and Stewart are smart guys who know better - and it is for that that I don't forgive them. I stopped watching them both long ago. I much prefer South Park, who I feel have made up for that faux pas many times over. Saddam graphically engaging in sodomy with Satan was perhaps one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

I've parodied Rand myself for effect on defunct fora, but within house and to make a point. It's a judgement call.

I neither forgot nor found terribly offensive the Simpsons episode, even though, again, it was at its base unfair. Were Rand alive, and able to respond, okay. No parody of Binswanger, Peikoff or the other Schismatics would bother me in the least. I decided not to mention the Ayn Rand School for Children only because I didn't want to add fuel to the flames.

And of course there's the unforgivable reference to Rand in Dirty Dancing. I rented that movie after it came out, and even though I liked the girl who ruined her career by getting the nose job, I turned off the movie at the point they slandered Rand and returned it.

It is indeed interesting to see that the reference was made. But I don't think the so-called publicity will help in any way. Maybe I'm wrong? I'd be happy to see some redeeming clips - perhaps. But I'll be happy to be done with the subject. And I did even consider sanctioning you - but no luck this time.

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 7/13, 1:22am)


Post 7

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 1:36amSanction this postReply
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Tyson,

I can see your point. Heck, even Rand herself defended the wording of her book title: The Virtue of Selfishness -- with reference to its popular shock-value. And Colbert was going well over-the-top with the whole thing.

Ed


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Post 8

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 7:57amSanction this postReply
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I'm just impressed that, unlike most mainstream media mentions/mockeries of Rand, Colbert managed to pronounce her first name correctly.

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Post 9

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 8:02amSanction this postReply
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Thanks guys.

Ted:

Giving people the benefit of the doubt might be a problem for me. Mostly, with things like this, I just laugh and am not disturbed. It's a no harm done scenario. To put it as succinctly as possible, Rand's ideas are too well formed to be laughed away. The same clip, in the same style, with Marxism or po-mo as its subject would have exposed the subject.

And this is where I make a distinction and when I take offence to something it is because of it. There is a difference between mocking, intellectual combat, and cutting down. Mocking is not an intellectual exercise and implies a lack of valid counterpoints. This is where I place the Colbert clip.

Intellectual combat is where serious debate is joined. Again, no problem.

But it is cutting down, which lies in the middle of the last two, where I take offence. It's the idea that an entire intellectual edifice can be brought down by simply flinging a plate of spaghetti at it. This is the style adopted by Naomi Klein and Micheal Moore. They practice this fraudulent intellectual combat and attempt to pass it off as valid... even though they know better. They think they have intellectual A-bombs, when all they have are transparent, half-formed ideas. When this technique is employed, I take offence.

Let me add that yes, there is a realm of things that you don't mock (just war, rape, achievement, etc.). Colbert did not penetrate into this realm. He mocked something which is already seen as a straw man in dishonest intellectual circles. That is why I laughed at his method; and that is why I laughed along with the crowd at his subject, although for different reasons.

Tyson 

(Edited by Tyson Russell on 7/13, 8:19am)


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Post 10

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 9:53amSanction this postReply
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There seems to be quite a lot of videos on YouTube about Rand. A sampling:

Why All The Ayn Rand Bashing?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pLotLBt7FrY&mode=related&search=
In Defence of Ayn Rand #5: Is, Ought & Ethics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8nWDFGnDxI&mode=related&search=
Atlas Shrugged Short
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGZowIOgZes&NR=1


Post 11

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
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Ugh! A five minute survey of some is almost enough to make any sane man decry the First Amendment. And the 'supporters' are far worse than the critics. Never before have I been grateful that Ayn Rand is dead, but these are enough to be glad of it.


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Post 12

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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While the videos aren't even close to being rigorously Objectivist I'm of the opinion that the more chatter on sites like YouTube that are populated largely by young people, the better. One 23 second video shows Atlas Shrugged being burned by hysterical nut jobs. Any curious young person who hasn't been introduced to AS is going to wonder what on earth is so evil that it deserves to be burned.

I support the kind of controversy that is occurring there.

Sam


Post 13

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
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I'm all for the exchange of ideas, and don't expect someone 23 (or 63) new to Objectivism (or even new to making peanut butter and jam) to have a good grasp of the philosophy.

But the creatures I endured for a few minutes (sorry I didn't have the stomach to record the URLs, one is of an Amerasian female 'Defending Ayn Rand', another was a fellow who clearly needed all kinds of a bath complaining about 'Bashing Ayn Rand') were loathsome and couldn't even conceive of the concept evil. Controversy? That would require the ability to generate a conversation with differing points of view. A chorus of blistering grunts and squeals is not a controversy, but just a bunch of monkeys howling.

It's shocking to see how debased a mind can become, and without even being hindered by drugs (so far as one could tell from the videos). I put some of the blame on the current educational system, but only some. I had to suffer a very poor public school system myself and still made the effort to hone my mind.

The retarded guy employed at the local Arby's is more coherent and has better manners. Profanity trips out of the mouths of these Neanderthals as readily and copiously as his drool. The difference is, he can't help it. Their whole 'mental style' matches their choice of words, when they can even choose words (beyond "like, I, uh..." I mean).

You clearly have a much higher tolerance for that sort of thing than I. But knowing what fine standards you have, Sam, I'm surprised you're so sanguine. My hat's off to you.

I'd be depressed about the future except that I've seen many examples of really sharp young people: personally, on NPR, and elsewhere on the Internet.

Post 14

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 4:34pmSanction this postReply
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Welly, welly, welly, welly, well. Given Jeff's incredibly harsh denunciations, I find myself tempted to see what all the ruckus is about. Perhaps this proves the "no bad publicity" thesis.

Ted Keer

Post 15

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 5:35pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

Regarding Sam's links (which are fantastic!)

That vulgar, common vernacular used while trying to describe an idea is exactly the kind of thing that would suggest Rand's ideas are making headway into the common culture. I am rejoicing over it, honestly. 

Trust me, Jeff, the second link is much more to your liking. Its great, actually.  I'm utterly crushing on that Paul McKeever guy. He's wonderful.

Yes!  The last link holds an amazing short video play of some fantastic young actors playing out scenes from Atlas Shrugged. Its just wonderful.

All of them are excellent.  Great finds, Sam!


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