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Post 20

Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
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Irfan

Clearly this thread has reopened old wounds. But I'd like you to know that they are wounds from battles I have no knowledge of. I haven't the foggiest idea what this brouhaha about Gotthelf is all about. But I can assure you as SOLO's founder that there are no "forbidden names" here, & SOLO is not merely ARI in pseudo-benign clothing. People who post here speak for themselves, not for SOLO, as you must realise when the odd Christian or nihilist shows up. If the professional philosophers here want to relitigate old grievances, they are at perfect liberty to do so. If they wish to throw a hissy fit because they don't like what someone else has said, they're at liberty to do that too. Just know, Irfan, that I for one would be sad to see you go. The contribution you have made in the short time you've been here has been fantastic, particularly in the way you've shoved it to the Saddamites. So I would urge you to reconsider your "Adieu." Don't take your anger at whomever out on me or SOLO. Hey, all we're doing is giving you guys a platform!

Linz

Post 21

Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 4:11pmSanction this postReply
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deleted
(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 2:44pm)


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Post 22

Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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Irfan - you say:

"I think there comes a point when one has to ask why one wastes one's time on a movement comprised of such people. I asked that question seven years ago when I left IOS, and the question is now recurring loudly--with no good answer."

Here's the good answer, Irfan:

SOLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re the Gotthelf matter, I don't know who said what about whom umpteen years ago, or who did or did not invite whom to participate in what, either. And I could care even less. I *do* care about getting the properly sunlit & (rationally) passionate version of Objectivism - the *authentic* one - out there. And I need all the help I can get!! :-)

Linz   



Post 23

Wednesday, September 1, 2004 - 5:23amSanction this postReply
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Yes, Michelle, it's very much tongue-in-cheek. But now the question becomes: Is it morally right for members of Solo to deign to publish in the same magazines as ARI people? I'd hate to see Soloists be contaminated.

James, I think you'd look very handsome with a hatchet buried in your forehead. Shall we find out?

Barbara

Post 24

Wednesday, September 1, 2004 - 5:38amSanction this postReply
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Irfan, despite your unpleasant view of me, I join Linz in urging you to remain on Solo. A great deal of what you've posted here, since I became active, has been very interesting to me. It's quite true that some of us are sensitive to ARI's moralism -- which certainly has been carried on by Gotthelf -- because, like you, we "have been on the receiving end of abuse." I certainly have been, as you must know, but I believe one has to develop a somewhat thick skin and a sense of humor about it.

If I'm "clueless", please tell me what you think I'm clueless about.

Post 25

Wednesday, September 1, 2004 - 4:33pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Khawaja,

-makes me wonder just who the fuck I'm writing for.
 
I think - and hope - you are also writing for readers like myself.
We aren't able to be writers, but take a huge amount of interest and delight in many of the writings here.  It's a great relief to have somewhere to go that's not a complete mire of postmodern relatavistic bulldust. 
.
I understand your frustration with fellow objectivists, but they are after all ordinary human beings too.  Being an objectivist doesn't neccessarily stop someone also being an opinionated pain in the butt as well.
I think there are some 500 SOLO members, and only a couple whose remarks upset you.  
 I have truly enjoyed all of  your writings, and for my own purely selfish sake I hope you do continue.
Best wishes
Cass


Post 26

Wednesday, September 1, 2004 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
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Cassandra --

Just to let you know, I invited Irfan to talk at the Washington Metro Objectivist Discusion group last April, where he gave a great presentation about the Middle East. In June, my husband and I had a nice dinner with him in New Jersey, where we spent hours talking about intellectual issues. I posted positive responses to all his posts on SOLO so far. I am very sad that the fact that I posted in Machan's favor on this thread turns me into his enemy.

-- Michelle

(Edited by Michelle Cohen on 9/01, 6:55pm)


Post 27

Wednesday, September 1, 2004 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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I am puzzled--I disagree with something someone says here, I disagree that what he thinks is so important is in fact so important, I claim that what he thinks is not so important is actually quite important--and suddenly all this is put into the same category as excommunications, being banned, whatever. I have disagreed with all sorts of folks throughout my career, including some friends, and at no time has anyone claimed that I am banning them or excommunicating them or doing anything like that. I simply disagree with something they said or have done, period. Now if this is invoked against me, I refuse to plead guilty to anything. I have never asked that anyone be stopped from doing anything, especially in print, especially here on SOLO HQ. Frankly, I am really puzzled what set this off and now am speculating what is the underlying, unspoken motivation since what I am supposed to have done, namely, advocated banning someone or excommunicating someone in the fashion of ARI, is totally incredible. I would have thought folks here don't have such thin skin as to get all bent out of shape from some disagreement, even about who should or should not be one's favorite Objectivist philosopher.

Post 28

Wednesday, September 1, 2004 - 10:04pmSanction this postReply
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Michelle, Machan;
I can well believe Irfan would be as interesting and intelligent as you found.
I agree, it is both sad and puzzling.  I note from the beginning of Irfans' article that he described the subject person as "a much missed former colleague".  I wonder if his outburst is due more to hurt regarding his colleague i.e. that perhaps in this particular issue he is not exactly detached and disinterested.
I remember a friend once consoling me, when I was upset by the intensity of attacks against my position "if you're going to carry a banner, you must expect to get shot at".  And I think it's true.  Perhaps Irfan never got even a little "shot at" on an Objectivist forum before, and is taking it hard. It does hurt, I know. 
Cass


Post 29

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 1:11amSanction this postReply
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Cass,

Well, many of us carry a baggage from past wrongs by other Objectivists. Or even from witnessing such wrongs. In my case, watching Gotthelf bend backward to praise Peikoff, after Peikoff condemned "On Ayn Rand" as "a bad book which will harm Objectivism," (perhaps in retaliation for Gotthelf's brave attempt to join Kelley and the IOS) -- I cannot be cheered to see that he managed to be reinstated at the ARI. Given the fact that the Anthem Foundation is controlled by ARI (see Impact, June 2004, "Supplying the Demand for Objectivist Intellectuals"), I wonder if Gotthelf is free to teach as he wishes, i.e. adavnce beyond the canon, as recommended by Khawaja in the thread on the Death Penalty. Perhaps I am wrong - time will tell. Anyway, I'd like to use this opportunity to recommend my favorite piece by Gotthelf - his recorded talk: "Love & Philosophy: Aristotelian vs. Platonic." It is available on Amazon, as well as on AynRandBookstore. It is one piece I can listen to without the baggage.

-- Michelle 

(Edited by Michelle Cohen on 9/05, 4:38am)

(Edited by Michelle Cohen on 9/05, 4:39am)


Post 30

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 2:05amSanction this postReply
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Michelle, you wrote: ". . . Gotthelf's brave attempt to join Kelley and the IOS." I've never heard about this. Would you mind saying when this happened and why? -- and what was the result?

Barbara

Post 31

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 4:42amSanction this postReply
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Barbara (and others),

All I know is that Gotthelf did not side with Peikoff when he came out with "Fact and Value."  He did not publish a statement about it.  He checked out IOS and attended several conferences.  Then he had his reasons to dislike what he saw and decided to return to ARI.  His book "On Ayn Rand" is still sold by TOC but not by the AynRandBookstore.  When the late George Walsh founded the Ayn Rand Society in 1987, Gotthelf joined him and took over when Walsh became ill. (Walsh was another ARI person who refused to side with Peikoff.)  The Ayn Rand Society is under the umbrella of the American Philosophical Association, so it cannot be partisan. 

-- Michelle


Post 32

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
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I would like to alert everybody to Irfan's article "Divest From Terrorism," which was posted on Friday, August 27.  I  notice I was the only one to respond to this article, so I want to make sure everybody is aware of it. The link for the organization is http://www.divestterror.org/

-- Michelle

(Edited by Michelle Cohen on 9/05, 4:43am)


Post 33

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 8:10amSanction this postReply
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FYI, On October 1-3, the Center for the Philosophy of Science at the University of Pittsburgh is honoring Allan Gotthelf's. Here is the title from the flyer.
BEING, NATURE AND LIFE: A CONFERENCE CELEBRATING ALLAN GOTTHELF'S CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE STUDY OF CLASSICAL PHILOSOPHY AND SCIENCE.
For further info: http://www.pitt.edu/~phiilosoph/conferenc.html

LINZ, See the benefits of living in Pittsburgh instead of New Zealand. Tee hee.

Fred

Post 34

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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deleted
(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 2:45pm)


Post 35

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 10:58amSanction this postReply
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After having told SOLO HQ readers a couple of times he isn't ever going to return, Irfan just isn't willing to resist yet another reply. This time, of course, it is a frontal verbal assault on me, with ad hominems galore, claiming I am immoral in various ways--I don't wish to list them all, they are too silly to dwell on. (This does recall for me encounters I've had with Rand, Binswanger, Peikoff, folks at The Intellectual Activist, etc., none of them pleasant, all of the just the sort, having that now famous finger-wagging tone, that alienated quite a few civilized folks from the movement.)
        But here is a passage worth some scrutiny:
"...But that doesn't take away from Gotthelf's achievement, either. Tibor has not given me a single cogent reason why Gotthelf should have cited his (Tibor's) work in his book. Nor has he cited a single other place where Gotthelf would have had reason to cite him. (When was the last time Tibor published a paper on Aristotle's Posterior Analytics and its relation to the Parts of Animals?)  Nor has he so far successfully explained his own invitation to ARS, or that of the "aggrieved" parties he mentions, much less their place on the Steering Committee of that organization. Forced to come up with something, anything, to justify having traveled so far down this road, he reaches back to an obscure event in 1969, and even here he has no answer to why it is that in 1999, both he and Gotthelf seem by mutual consent to regard that episode as ancient history. Nor does he have anything remotely resembling an answer to why that ancient history should now be pertinent. He describes as "crumbs" his invitation to ARS, thereby insulting every other contributor to ARS--including me (was my presence crumbs when I spoke there?) and Gotthelf, who was his co-panelist on that supposedly "crumby" occasion in 1999 when Tibor spoke...."
       Notice this, please, carefully: I did beef that Gotthelf & Co. don't give much credit to others for spreading the good word about Rand--and Irfan is a prime example of the others. But I have never said or even intimated that Gotthelf "should have cited" me, anywhere, anytime. Nor did I complain that Irfan hasn't cited me in scholarly forums. I was observing that Irfan considered Gotthelf's achievement of giving a course on Rand/Objectivism at the University of Pittsburgh something "remarkable" and disagreed with this assessment and gave my reasons for doing so. (The bit about Gotthelf not mentioning Rand in works he got accepted by the very prestigious publishers of his books on Aristotle came late in this exchange but still had nothing to do with Gotthelf not citing or mentioning me. [It is a diversion to make it all look like I am complaining about having been slighted by Gotthelf rather than what I was doing, namely, complaining about Irfan picking Gotthelf's feat as somehow special while not mentioning anyone else's regarding bringing Rand into the academy.]) That is what gave me cause for complaint, since it is not remarkable, if that means worth making special mention of. Professors everywhere, especially senior ones, get ample opportunity to give special courses on their favorite people and/or topics. (When I visited at the US Military Academy in 1993-94, I gave a semester long seminar on the developments in classical liberal thought to the entire philosophy-literature faculty and didn't consider it remarkable, didn't make announcements about it, just did the job, period. And, yes, Objectivism was very much part of this lecture series.)
       It is Irfan's selectivity of picking Gotthelf's gig--and its having been a subject of an inhouse interview at Pitt--as remarkable that was the justification for my complaint, not any supposed failure on Gotthelf's part to mention me or anything. (Gotthelf, after all, wasn't posting on SOLO HQ, Irfan was.)
       Having made this correction, I leave all the rest to readers to sort out if that is what they consider worth doing with their time. In my opinion--and I would need to know far more about Irfan and his life to know this--something very personal was being touched in my initial reply, having little relationship to the actual statements I made (which have been forgotten in all this heat--they were about the alleged "remarkable" achievement of Gotthelf at Pitt, nothing else). Nothing else seems to me to justify all the anger and nastiness that has arisen here. Nor is there much meat to the claim that I have been outargued--which, in any case, amounts to elevating this informal exchange beyond the degree of rigor that it merits ("context, context," as so often one hears Objectivists warn everyone).
      By the way, when one reads and posts on SOLO HQ, does one "belong" to something, as one may when one gets to take part in ARI activities?  I don't think so, so it seems the idea of quitting SOLO HQ is a bit like quitting writing letters to some publication. (I have stopped writing letters to The New York Review of Books--because they have never published any by me so far--so have I quit them now, stopped being a member or something?)

(Edited by Machan on 9/02, 2:49pm)


Post 36

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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Well that certainly sucks.  Sorry to see Irfan go.  Seems like a good guy.  Might have been spared his leaving if this had all been handled by private email, or SOLOMail, but then it's not my place to beseech him to stay. 

Recommendation for  SOLOAdmin:  when little tiffs, or big personal disagreements or whatever--at your discretion, of course; you guys are bright and discerning enough to decide--arise, perhaps dropping a little note to the participants would prevent public fallout.  Something like "we have a SOLOMail function available if you'd rather discuss this issue privately, or with a selected, limited audience".  And let the participants decide from there.  Not prevent an unlimited audience if that's what they really want, but just let them know that Solo has other methods of discussion that might be more convenient for them. 

But hey...guess we're all grow'd up big folk'.  F**k it, right?

(Edited by Jeremy on 9/02, 8:23pm)


Post 37

Friday, September 3, 2004 - 12:29amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the information, Michelle.

Irfan's condemnation of you is terribly unfair -- as is his condemnation of Tibor and everyone else who stumbled into his bad graces. His post is full of the negative moral judgments for which he denounces all Objectivists. And he has added psychological condemnations to his moral condemnations;those whom he attacks are not only immoral but are "neurotic" -- and this, too, is a brush with which he tars all Objectivists. Too bad.

Barbara

Post 38

Friday, September 3, 2004 - 4:46amSanction this postReply
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Jeremy,

Just to let you know, I contacted Irfan by personal e-mail in an attempt to clear up the air and salvage my friendship with him. He chose to respond to my e-mail on-list, as you can see. If after reading his last message you still think he seems like a good guy, do it at your own peril. I did and got burned.

-- Michelle

(Edited by Michelle Cohen on 9/03, 9:08pm)

(Edited by Michelle Cohen on 9/06, 6:50pm)


Post 39

Friday, September 3, 2004 - 6:59pmSanction this postReply
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Heya Michelle. 

I don't think the thread of discussion was worthy of anyone, so I won't single Irfan out.  Just not going to do it.  And whatever moral judgements I might make about any particular person won't prevent me from acknowledging that that person has done a good job of representing Objectivism's ideas.  That's what I meant by "a good guy", aside from the fact that Irfan never stepped on my pinky toe. 

(PS: None of this was vital.  Has Objectivism been bettered by it?  Or is the whole matter not worth our trouble?  It's a shame if folks aren't being acknowledged for their hard, hard work in getting Objectivism into the academic mainstream.  If it's lying by omission (omitting the names of many other hard-working scholars), then it's lying, no bones about it, and the liars should be called out.  But at least Objectivism is there.  That's a laudable accomplishment that should have transcended any bitter grievances for at least a little while.  It could be just my style of thinking that things like grievances aren't a big deal.  What was that AS line?  "We never had to take them seriously, did we?".  Something like that.)


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